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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 28, 2018 4:43:16 GMT
Can't people learn to solve things by working together or through a mediator? Why do a war? Society technically teaches that this is not the way to solve problems. So...what's going on here?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:25:01 GMT
And again you are missing my point. You said, "why do we need an army God will protect us." And I basically responded, "why do you need a job, God will provide for you." The two statements are essentially the same at the core. God provided you with a job so that you can make money to live. If you're lazy or refuse to work you starve. In the same way God provided your country with an army to protect itself, without the army you get conquered. What do you mean? Joseph in OT didn't have an army to protect him and his destiny was to be sold into slavery as God wanted for his own good. Apostles were thrown in jail for preaching and were beaten and some stoned and beheaded and they didn't fight back nor was there an army to fight for them. They accepted what was to come and trusted. Was a happy ending in the end  Joseph is not a country, the apostles are not countries. We do have an example of a country founded by God and how it was supposed to do things. They had an army, they waged wars. |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:25:27 GMT
If you don’t work you don’t eat. Where’s the part in the Bible that says if you don’t have an army you will not be protected by God? Why did God give Israel an army at all? Are we living in the OT or under the covenant of Christ? |
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:39:28 GMT
Why did God give Israel an army at all? Are we living in the OT or under the covenant of Christ? Who cares? Can you show me any place in the Bible where Jesus says that a nation cannot defend itself against another nation? I've shown you where it says that God has given the state the power of the sword. Romans 13:1-5 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:52:33 GMT
Are we living in the OT or under the covenant of Christ? Who cares? Can you show me any place in the Bible where Jesus says that a nation cannot defend itself against another nation? I've shown you where it says that God has given the state the power of the sword. Romans 13:1-5 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.” Then why not let that foreign government invade your country and destroy it? It was instituted by God, right? |
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:57:24 GMT
Why did God give Israel an army at all? Are we living in the OT or under the covenant of Christ? In any event, we argue about this and as we argue more and more I do realize that there is no clear answer to this as spoken of in the New Testament that I can see. I tire horribly of arguing with you about this and I'll tell you what I'll do. I will study the Bible, with a completely unbiased eye, and I will consider your position. I will try to see if it is true. I tire of this debate and I'm willing to study with an open mind to see if what you are saying is in fact correct. This will be my last post here and I'm sorry for condescending to you. |
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Clovis Merovingian
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Elder
Posts: 2,732
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Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
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Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 4:36:01 GMT
Who cares? Can you show me any place in the Bible where Jesus says that a nation cannot defend itself against another nation? I've shown you where it says that God has given the state the power of the sword. Romans 13:1-5 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.” Then why not let that foreign government invade your country and destroy it? It was instituted by God, right? Alright here are two verses in which I wish to run by you regarding war and the morality of having an army. First there is this verse. Luke 3:14 (KJV) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. Now it says in the KJV "do violence to no man" but the Greek word translated into violence here referred to a soldier extorting money from people by force. This is shown in other translations of the Bible. (NASB) Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” (NLT) John replied, “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.” (TLB) John replied, “Don’t extort money by threats and violence; don’t accuse anyone of what you know he didn’t do; and be content with your pay!” (CEB) He answered, “Don’t cheat or harass anyone, and be satisfied with your pay.” So when soldiers asked what they should do to repent of their sins they are told not to extort money from people by violence, accuse anyone falsely, and to be content with their pay. They are not told by John the Baptist however to quit their job as a soldier which if it were a sinful position to be a warrior they would be told to quit in a heartbeat. This seems to show that being a soldier is okay and thus armies are okay. And armies are for war. Theres also Acts 10: 1-6 10 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the [c]ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and [d]alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6 he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”
This Roman Centurion which is a Roman warrior is called a devout man who fears God with all his household. How could a devout man hold such a non pacifistic and sinful position? |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 5:37:32 GMT
“For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.” Then why not let that foreign government invade your country and destroy it? It was instituted by God, right? Alright here are two verses in which I wish to run by you regarding war and the morality of having an army. First there is this verse. Luke 3:14 (KJV) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. Now it says in the KJV "do violence to no man" but the Greek word translated into violence here referred to a soldier extorting money from people by force. This is shown in other translations of the Bible. (NASB) Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” (NLT) John replied, “Don’t extort money or make false accusations. And be content with your pay.” (TLB) John replied, “Don’t extort money by threats and violence; don’t accuse anyone of what you know he didn’t do; and be content with your pay!” (CEB) He answered, “Don’t cheat or harass anyone, and be satisfied with your pay.” So when soldiers asked what they should do to repent of their sins they are told not to extort money from people by violence, accuse anyone falsely, and to be content with their pay. They are not told by John the Baptist however to quit their job as a soldier which if it were a sinful position to be a warrior they would be told to quit in a heartbeat. This seems to show that being a soldier is okay and thus armies are okay. And armies are for war. Theres also Acts 10: 1-6 10 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the [c]ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and [d]alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6 he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”
This Roman Centurion which is a Roman warrior is called a devout man who fears God with all his household. How could a devout man hold such a non pacifistic and sinful position? Malice - desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness Ephesians 4:31 KJV [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: Colossians 3:8 KJV [8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 1 Peter 2:1 KJV [1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, In regards to the centurion, I was in the military, I never had to hurt a single person while I served 4 years, 3 years as an in-port security sentry armed with 2 weapons and 135 rounds of ammunition. Bonus: Proverbs 28:17 KJV [17] A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him. Matthew 10:28 KJV [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. |
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 31, 2018 9:12:06 GMT
Of course! But our life is a sinful reality.. what did you do if you lived during world war II? Serve The Reich? Am I right? Why would I serve the Reich? What the Nazis believed was contrary to the Bible. Yes, it is clear that the Bible and the Church does not allow us to kill as any other sin because it separates us from God!Amen! But war, like any other sin, is the reality of our world..unfortunately  -the whole world lies in wickedness- 1 Jn. 5: 19. -says the Lord God: I do not want the death of a sinner, but that a sinner should turn from his way and live- Ezekiel 33:10Clovis Merovingian say here about the Second world war and about Nazi plans. So you believe that a Christian should not participate and just allow evil to dominate the world?  There is no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life for his brother" Jn. 15: 13. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 9:53:21 GMT
Why would I serve the Reich? What the Nazis believed was contrary to the Bible. Yes, it is clear that the Bible and the Church does not allow us to kill as any other sin because it separates us from God!Amen! But war, like any other sin, is the reality of our world..unfortunately -the whole world lies in wickedness- 1 Jn. 5: 19. -says the Lord God: I do not want the death of a sinner, but that a sinner should turn from his way and live- Ezekiel 33:10Clovis Merovingian say here about the Second world war and about Nazi plans. So you believe that a Christian should not participate and just allow evil to dominate the world? There is no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life for his brother" Jn. 15: 13.Yeah there's war here because it's rules by Satan and his people but Christians refrain from war. They love and keep peace and live by God's image Shrug |
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 31, 2018 10:24:10 GMT
Yes, it is clear that the Bible and the Church does not allow us to kill as any other sin because it separates us from God!Amen! But war, like any other sin, is the reality of our world..unfortunately -the whole world lies in wickedness- 1 Jn. 5: 19. -says the Lord God: I do not want the death of a sinner, but that a sinner should turn from his way and live- Ezekiel 33:10Clovis Merovingian say here about the Second world war and about Nazi plans. So you believe that a Christian should not participate and just allow evil to dominate the world? There is no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life for his brother" Jn. 15: 13.Yeah there's war here because it's rules by Satan and his people but Christians refrain from war. They love and keep peace and live by God's image  This is not a religious section of the forum..pay attention. Nevertheless, the issue of the Second world war is relevant..Christians fought then. Let's not condemn them for that, as Christ said! |
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 31, 2018 10:35:46 GMT
Should I quote all of Ephesians 6? It talks about the armor of God which is put on for spiritual warfare. God’s word is referred to as our sword. Can you show me an example in the Bible of an apostle using physical weapons to fight in a war? Matthew 26:51-52 KJV [51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Revelation 13:9-10 KJV [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 KJV [10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Did any of the disciples or apostles fight for their life? Did Paul fight back when he was stoned? Did Stephen? Did John the Baptist?Did James? Did Christ fight for His? Did any martyr fight for their life? What’s the point when we overcome death in the end anyway? I'm not going to get into a pointless religious debate with you again. There is the example of the just wars in the Old Testament, there is the verse in Romans which states that government has the power of the sword for purposes of punishing evil doers, and many other things but this misses the point. Stupidity doesn't become any less stupid when you try to justify it using scripture. So I have a question. Imagine this scenario. You are the king of a Middle Eastern country. ISIS is coming to invade into your territory. If they win they will kill millions of your people, enslave a great deal more, rape your women including your wife and daughters (and sexually enslave them), and will put your country under an Islamic theocracy where your Christian population will have to convert to Islam or become second class citizens called demi's who have to pay a tax. Will you call your countries armies to war to defend yourself and your wife and daughters from harm? If they win and the ISIS fighters come for you ready to rape your wife and daughters, enslave your children, and burn you in a cage, do you pick up a gun and fight back or do you just accept your fate? To be honest this is not a religious section of the forum..but questions of religion even here. It is one thing when a person individually decides not to participate in wars according to his religious principles, I decided so for myself ...but when a nation or country is in danger of being destroyed or enslaved, as in your example, then another matter.....God told people to be fruitful and multiply. The one who suits genocide is the enemy of God because his actions violate this Divine rule!
There is no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life for his brother" Jn. 15: 13. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 10:41:55 GMT
Yeah there's war here because it's rules by Satan and his people but Christians refrain from war. They love and keep peace and live by God's image This is not a religious section of the forum..pay attention. Nevertheless, the issue of the Second world war is relevant..Christians fought then. Let's not condemn them for that, as Christ said! My post was about war in war section. Shrug |
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randomcj
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Post by randomcj on Aug 24, 2018 8:23:53 GMT
War is necessary for human advancement.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 24, 2018 8:33:10 GMT
War is necessary for human advancement. But doesn't war reduce the population and as a result pause advancement? |
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kusler
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Post by kusler on Aug 24, 2018 9:10:11 GMT
War is necessary for human advancement. But doesn't war reduce the population and as a result pause advancement? It only may pause technological advencement and even then that isn't absolutely true. War as in, two factions or nations fighting is how new ideas emerge, how new civilisations emerge. I know that it isn't very that useful, but I like the Hegelian Dialectic simply because it shows that if two factions fight, a new result, a new idea, or rather, ideas, emerge. |
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-the whole world lies in wickedness- 1 Jn. 5: 19. -says the Lord God: I do not want the death of a sinner, but that a sinner should turn from his way and live- Ezekiel 33:10
