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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 28, 2018 4:43:16 GMT
Can't people learn to solve things by working together or through a mediator? Why do a war? Society technically teaches that this is not the way to solve problems. So...what's going on here?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 2:53:07 GMT
Despite being a pacifist like Jesus. I find it silly for different denominations of Christianity to argue if war is right. I think it's best they ask how much faith they have in God keeping them safe and allowing certain things to happen to test their faith rather then try to justify or not justify war. So I think the real issue here is how much they trust God. Shrug Mhmm, and we have examples in the Bible of the apostles who had so much faith that they didn’t lift a finger in defense of themselves because they trusted that God would protect them. Whether some people think this is stupid or not is irrelevant. What is relevant are the examples and commandments we have in scripture, even the example of Christ, and we should live by those examples and commandments. This is true. Also when Peter drew his sword to cut of someone's ear, Jesus was not happy. Jesus told him to put his sword away and Jesus healed the man back up. Then later the apostles learned to not fight back with physical power as you said John 18:10-11 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? |
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Clovis Merovingian
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Country: My State and my Region are my country
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Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 2:54:39 GMT
Despite being a pacifist like Jesus. I find it silly for different denominations of Christianity to argue if war is right. I think it's best they ask how much faith they have in God keeping them safe and allowing certain things to happen to test their faith rather then try to justify or not justify war. So I think the real issue here is how much they trust God.  "Why do people work all day to earn their salary so they can have a house, food, a car etc. Don't they have enough faith in God to supply them with all their needs? Why do people eat food, don't they have enough faith for God to nourish him after all God clothes the lilies and so on? Why do people raise their children, don't they have enough faith in God that he will make sure they turn out okay?" This is what you are saying with your statement and here's the parallel. Your work is how God provides you with food, food is how God provides you with nourishment, and you raising your child is how God makes sure they grow into a decent human being. And armies are how God protects a nation. God's protection, Gods providing for you doesn't give you a right to do absolutely nothing. In the same way poverty falls on those who do not work, subjugation falls upon a people who are not willing to defend themselves. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 2:59:38 GMT
Despite being a pacifist like Jesus. I find it silly for different denominations of Christianity to argue if war is right. I think it's best they ask how much faith they have in God keeping them safe and allowing certain things to happen to test their faith rather then try to justify or not justify war. So I think the real issue here is how much they trust God. "Why do people work all day to earn their salary so they can have a house, food, a car etc. Don't they have enough faith in God to supply them with all their needs? Why do people eat food, don't they have enough faith for God to nourish him after all God clothes the lilies and so on? Why do people raise their children, don't they have enough faith in God that he will make sure they turn out okay?" This is what you are saying with your statement and here's the parallel. Your work is how God provides you with food, food is how God provides you with nourishment, and you raising your child is how God makes sure they grow into a decent human being. And armies are how God protects a nation. God's protection, Gods providing for you doesn't give you a right to do absolutely nothing. In the same way poverty falls on those who do not work, subjugation falls upon a people who are not willing to defend themselves. Yes, He provides you and takes care of you. No need to worry or fear. He wants full trust in Him. Shrug Luke 12:6-7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
Likes: 1,765
Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 2:59:39 GMT
Despite being a pacifist like Jesus. I find it silly for different denominations of Christianity to argue if war is right. I think it's best they ask how much faith they have in God keeping them safe and allowing certain things to happen to test their faith rather then try to justify or not justify war. So I think the real issue here is how much they trust God. Mhmm, and we have examples in the Bible of the apostles who had so much faith that they didn’t lift a finger in defense of themselves because they trusted that God would protect them. Whether some people think this is stupid or not is irrelevant. What is relevant are the examples and commandments we have in scripture, even the example of Christ, and we should live by those examples and commandments. You have shown nothing in scripture which states that a country cannot protect itself or others in war. You have only shown examples which refer to interpersonal relationships. The Bible clearly states that God has given the state the power of the sword. Israel waged many just wars in the Old Testament, King David was a warrior as was Joshua and a host of other people. Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ... |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
Likes: 1,765
Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:00:41 GMT
"Why do people work all day to earn their salary so they can have a house, food, a car etc. Don't they have enough faith in God to supply them with all their needs? Why do people eat food, don't they have enough faith for God to nourish him after all God clothes the lilies and so on? Why do people raise their children, don't they have enough faith in God that he will make sure they turn out okay?" This is what you are saying with your statement and here's the parallel. Your work is how God provides you with food, food is how God provides you with nourishment, and you raising your child is how God makes sure they grow into a decent human being. And armies are how God protects a nation. God's protection, Gods providing for you doesn't give you a right to do absolutely nothing. In the same way poverty falls on those who do not work, subjugation falls upon a people who are not willing to defend themselves. Yes, He provides you and takes care of you. No need to worry or fear. He wants full trust in Him. Luke 12:6-7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Okay, then put your money where your mouth is. Quit your job. |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:04:04 GMT
Should I quote all of Ephesians 6? It talks about the armor of God which is put on for spiritual warfare. God’s word is referred to as our sword. Can you show me an example in the Bible of an apostle using physical weapons to fight in a war? Matthew 26:51-52 KJV [51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Revelation 13:9-10 KJV [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 KJV [10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Did any of the disciples or apostles fight for their life? Did Paul fight back when he was stoned? Did Stephen? Did John the Baptist?Did James? Did Christ fight for His? Did any martyr fight for their life? What’s the point when we overcome death in the end anyway? I'm not going to get into a pointless religious debate with you again. There is the example of the just wars in the Old Testament, there is the verse in Romans which states that government has the power of the sword for purposes of punishing evil doers, and many other things but this misses the point. Stupidity doesn't become any less stupid when you try to justify it using scripture. So I have a question. Imagine this scenario. You are the king of a Middle Eastern country. ISIS is coming to invade into your territory. If they win they will kill millions of your people, enslave a great deal more, rape your women including your wife and daughters (and sexually enslave them), and will put your country under an Islamic theocracy where your Christian population will have to convert to Islam or become second class citizens called demi's who have to pay a tax. Will you call your countries armies to war to defend yourself and your wife and daughters from harm? If they win and the ISIS fighters come for you ready to rape your wife and daughters, enslave your children, and burn you in a cage, do you pick up a gun and fight back or do you just accept your fate? I don’t appreciate your condescending attitude, but I will answer your question regardless. If God let’s that happen to my country, then my country probably deserved it. God fights for us, Exodus 14:14 KJV [14] The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. Deuteronomy 1:30 KJV [30] The Lord your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; Revelation 19:19-21 KJV [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 20:7-9 KJV [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 3:05:23 GMT
Yes, He provides you and takes care of you. No need to worry or fear. He wants full trust in Him. Luke 12:6-7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Okay, then put your money where your mouth is. Quit your job. I've actually been doing that!  But point is God provides you with work and stuff. It doesn't mean you reject or say no to Him or what He provides. |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
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Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:10:56 GMT
Okay, then put your money where your mouth is. Quit your job. I've actually been doing that! But point is God provides you with work and stuff. It doesn't mean you reject or say no to Him or what He provides. And again you are missing my point. You said, "why do we need an army God will protect us." And I basically responded, "why do you need a job, God will provide for you." The two statements are essentially the same at the core. God provided you with a job so that you can make money to live. If you're lazy or refuse to work you starve. In the same way God provided your country with an army to protect itself, without the army you get conquered. |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
Likes: 1,765
Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:15:53 GMT
I'm not going to get into a pointless religious debate with you again. There is the example of the just wars in the Old Testament, there is the verse in Romans which states that government has the power of the sword for purposes of punishing evil doers, and many other things but this misses the point. Stupidity doesn't become any less stupid when you try to justify it using scripture. So I have a question. Imagine this scenario. You are the king of a Middle Eastern country. ISIS is coming to invade into your territory. If they win they will kill millions of your people, enslave a great deal more, rape your women including your wife and daughters (and sexually enslave them), and will put your country under an Islamic theocracy where your Christian population will have to convert to Islam or become second class citizens called demi's who have to pay a tax. Will you call your countries armies to war to defend yourself and your wife and daughters from harm? If they win and the ISIS fighters come for you ready to rape your wife and daughters, enslave your children, and burn you in a cage, do you pick up a gun and fight back or do you just accept your fate? I don’t appreciate your condescending attitude, but I will answer your question regardless. If God let’s that happen to my country, then my country probably deserved it. God fights for us, Exodus 14:14 KJV [14] The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. Deuteronomy 1:30 KJV [30] The Lord your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; Revelation 19:19-21 KJV [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 20:7-9 KJV [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. You have two quotes from the Old Testament which refer to rare times where God fights and the Israeli army did nothing (the rest of the time they fought their enemies with swords, axes, and spears.) And then you refer to Revelation where God fights the armies of Satan at the end of time. Well, this isn't the end of time and that isn't relevant to anything we're talking about. I'm getting condescending because I find your point of view dangerous. |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:19:50 GMT
I've actually been doing that! But point is God provides you with work and stuff. It doesn't mean you reject or say no to Him or what He provides. And again you are missing my point. You said, "why do we need an army God will protect us." And I basically responded, "why do you need a job, God will provide for you." The two statements are essentially the same at the core. God provided you with a job so that you can make money to live. If you're lazy or refuse to work you starve. In the same way God provided your country with an army to protect itself, without the army you get conquered. If you don’t work you don’t eat. Where’s the part in the Bible that says if you don’t have an army you will not be protected by God? |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:20:49 GMT
I don’t appreciate your condescending attitude, but I will answer your question regardless. If God let’s that happen to my country, then my country probably deserved it. God fights for us, Exodus 14:14 KJV [14] The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. Deuteronomy 1:30 KJV [30] The Lord your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; Revelation 19:19-21 KJV [19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 20:7-9 KJV [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. You have two quotes from the Old Testament which refer to rare times where God fights and the Israeli army did nothing (the rest of the time they fought their enemies with swords, axes, and spears.) And then you refer to Revelation where God fights the armies of Satan at the end of time. Well, this isn't the end of time and that isn't relevant to anything we're talking about. I'm getting condescending because I find your point of view dangerous. Where did Christ take up arms against the Pharisees?... no, where did Christ take up arms? |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
Likes: 1,765
Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:22:28 GMT
You have two quotes from the Old Testament which refer to rare times where God fights and the Israeli army did nothing (the rest of the time they fought their enemies with swords, axes, and spears.) And then you refer to Revelation where God fights the armies of Satan at the end of time. Well, this isn't the end of time and that isn't relevant to anything we're talking about. I'm getting condescending because I find your point of view dangerous. Where did Christ take up arms against the Pharisees? The Pharisees are people not an invading army. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 31, 2018 3:23:09 GMT
I've actually been doing that! But point is God provides you with work and stuff. It doesn't mean you reject or say no to Him or what He provides. And again you are missing my point. You said, "why do we need an army God will protect us." And I basically responded, "why do you need a job, God will provide for you." The two statements are essentially the same at the core. God provided you with a job so that you can make money to live. If you're lazy or refuse to work you starve. In the same way God provided your country with an army to protect itself, without the army you get conquered. What do you mean? Joseph in OT didn't have an army to protect him and his destiny was to be sold into slavery as God wanted for his own good. Apostles were thrown in jail for preaching and were beaten and some stoned and beheaded and they didn't fight back nor was there an army to fight for them. They accepted what was to come and trusted. Was a happy ending in the end  |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,732
Likes: 1,765
Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic and Germanic
Ethnicity: Northwestern European American
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 31, 2018 3:23:34 GMT
And again you are missing my point. You said, "why do we need an army God will protect us." And I basically responded, "why do you need a job, God will provide for you." The two statements are essentially the same at the core. God provided you with a job so that you can make money to live. If you're lazy or refuse to work you starve. In the same way God provided your country with an army to protect itself, without the army you get conquered. If you don’t work you don’t eat. Where’s the part in the Bible that says if you don’t have an army you will not be protected by God? Why did God give Israel an army at all? |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 31, 2018 3:24:20 GMT
Where did Christ take up arms against the Pharisees? The Pharisees are people not an invading army. Where did Christ tell us to take up arms? |
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