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Post by Elizabeth on May 13, 2018 10:30:26 GMT
Are you for it or against? And why?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 15:45:55 GMT
Found what? Sex as a unifying activity is embodied at its height through marriage, and any activity outside of marriage is conducive to a form of psychological fragmentation (religious terms "sin" as seperation). Seperating sex from marriage leads to instability in a society along with personal psychological issues. Sex is for children, by observing the vary nature of the act itself...however the "pleasure" itself is also inherent function of it. Sex should be open to children however the pleasure in it (a pleasure ideally one should be able to do without) does not contradict any moral or ethical code when confined within the marriage. If there was no pleasure for the couple during sex, I would question if the relationship did not have inherent issues within it. Found one 3 times who only wants the bible way and proposed or plans to. And I still never separated sex from marriage. I'm confused. Well, while you may argue that my rejection of the girl because of an absence of attraction may be wrong...are you that different? My point remains the same. And what is the "biblical" way since 70+ denominations (that is an old statistic) interpret the bible differently? I understand you can quote scripture, but oftentimes one scripture is quoted outside the context of another when left to "individuals" and group or institutional understanding is necessary to mitigate these extremes...hence inevitably one is left to either a catholic or orthodox stance. However considering the nature of these religions, subject to modern culture, in themselves are fragmenting these are times of moral and spiritual chaos. The question of sex and marriage can be observed as this: 1) Is it better for a couple to remain loyal but never get married? Or is it better for a couple to get married, divorced and remarried? Question 1 observed a greater degree of unity that follows the form and function of a marriage, while question two observes a blind ritualistic stance which contradicts itself in the respect the ritual did not "change" the people's behavior...as the intent of all "ritual" in the respect it forms the perspectives through which we interact with reality. 2) Ideally sex and marriage are one and the same and should not be seperated, but the question occurs in reality to the practical moral problems we see today. The fundamental issue of marriage today breaks down to a question of what does it mean to be "unified"? |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2018 15:51:44 GMT
Mostly just those that are doing it by scripture. So not many! Which is fine because not all want a happy long lasting relationship.  That is my point, the fundamentalist approach either does not result in those relationships lasting (statistically speaking) with the one's that do last even less being "happy" (whatever that is really "is" the question considering "happiness" is a dirty word in the modern culture). Happiness, without fear of contradicting any subjective interpretation, generally extends to a form of "balance as fullness". The marriages today, for the most part, lack any form of balance in the general sense with the exception of a select few which is statistically inevitable. All the women in these fundamentalist marriages are miserable. All the men in secular "effiminate" marriages are also miserable. The question occurs in respect to where one balances faith and reason...not one or the other. The modern relationship is subject to too many extremes which prevent any form of happiness assuming it last to begin with. The relationships which do find "happiness" and "love" usually find it not at the beginning but over a period of time as both partners learn more about eachother and learn to mediate with eachother (yes the word "mediate" is used to often...). I don't know...I never had a bad loooong relationship of at least over 2+ years. So like I said it has to be based on biblical love to work and it will be a happy one then. Everyone married in my family is happy. My grandparents both lost their spouses due to death though recently so they've been miserable. But a marriage of 40+ years is hard to get over after death. :( |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2018 15:53:38 GMT
Found one 3 times who only wants the bible way and proposed or plans to. And I still never separated sex from marriage. I'm confused. Well, while you may argue that my rejection of the girl because of an absence of attraction may be wrong...are you that different? My point remains the same. And what is the "biblical" way since 70+ denominations (that is an old statistic) interpret the bible differently? I understand you can quote scripture, but oftentimes one scripture is quoted outside the context of another when left to "individuals" and group or institutional understanding is necessary to mitigate these extremes...hence inevitably one is left to either a catholic or orthodox stance. However considering the nature of these religions, subject to modern culture, in themselves are fragmenting these are times of moral and spiritual chaos. The question of sex and marriage can be observed as this: 1) Is it better for a couple to remain loyal but never get married? Or is it better for a couple to get married, divorced and remarried? Question 1 observed a greater degree of unity that follows the form and function of a marriage, while question two observes a blind ritualistic stance which contradicts itself in the respect the ritual did not "change" the people's behavior...as the intent of all "ritual" in the respect it forms the perspectives through which we interact with reality. 2) Ideally sex and marriage are one and the same and should not be seperated, but the question occurs in reality to the practical moral problems we see today. The fundamental issue of marriage today breaks down to a question of what does it mean to be "unified"? Bible says only that you become one flesh and it cannot be separated and that sex is after marriage. There's no other way to read that. Everyone else just doesn't care. That's their problem so that's why they're miserable  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 16:27:22 GMT
That is my point, the fundamentalist approach either does not result in those relationships lasting (statistically speaking) with the one's that do last even less being "happy" (whatever that is really "is" the question considering "happiness" is a dirty word in the modern culture). Happiness, without fear of contradicting any subjective interpretation, generally extends to a form of "balance as fullness". The marriages today, for the most part, lack any form of balance in the general sense with the exception of a select few which is statistically inevitable. All the women in these fundamentalist marriages are miserable. All the men in secular "effiminate" marriages are also miserable. The question occurs in respect to where one balances faith and reason...not one or the other. The modern relationship is subject to too many extremes which prevent any form of happiness assuming it last to begin with. The relationships which do find "happiness" and "love" usually find it not at the beginning but over a period of time as both partners learn more about eachother and learn to mediate with eachother (yes the word "mediate" is used to often...). I don't know...I never had a bad loooong relationship of at least over 2+ years. So like I said it has to be based on biblical love to work and it will be a happy one then. Everyone married in my family is happy. My grandparents both lost their spouses due to death though recently so they've been miserable. But a marriage of 40+ years is hard to get over after death. :( All the relationships I had the woman usually had a string of men on the side, hence they are not long. I am familiar with "whores" (unfortunately), for lack of a better word, but I look around me and generally speaking my experiences are not that different than all the other men I know. I don't think a man can really be "friends" with a woman without it leading to sex or feelings on one side. On the other hand using a woman for sex or "sleeping around" is still a grave wrong...so a moral paradox ensues that modern ethics is not equipped to deal with. Part of this has to do with the dissolution of the marriage bond. It seems, to me at least (with the exception of relatives), the most logical manner in which a man and woman can interact without their interaction resulting in...destruction? That may be over dramatic of a word. |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 16:30:39 GMT
Well, while you may argue that my rejection of the girl because of an absence of attraction may be wrong...are you that different? My point remains the same. And what is the "biblical" way since 70+ denominations (that is an old statistic) interpret the bible differently? I understand you can quote scripture, but oftentimes one scripture is quoted outside the context of another when left to "individuals" and group or institutional understanding is necessary to mitigate these extremes...hence inevitably one is left to either a catholic or orthodox stance. However considering the nature of these religions, subject to modern culture, in themselves are fragmenting these are times of moral and spiritual chaos. The question of sex and marriage can be observed as this: 1) Is it better for a couple to remain loyal but never get married? Or is it better for a couple to get married, divorced and remarried? Question 1 observed a greater degree of unity that follows the form and function of a marriage, while question two observes a blind ritualistic stance which contradicts itself in the respect the ritual did not "change" the people's behavior...as the intent of all "ritual" in the respect it forms the perspectives through which we interact with reality. 2) Ideally sex and marriage are one and the same and should not be seperated, but the question occurs in reality to the practical moral problems we see today. The fundamental issue of marriage today breaks down to a question of what does it mean to be "unified"? Bible says only that you become one flesh and it cannot be separated and that sex is after marriage. There's no other way to read that. Everyone else just doesn't care. That's their problem so that's why they're miserable  Corinthian 6:16: "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."" Sex as a form of unification is a degree of a marital contract. These degrees of marriage can be observed as, but not limited to: 1) Marriage ritual (divine covenant) 2) Marraige contract (group contract) 3) Sex (physical contract) |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2018 16:34:16 GMT
Bible says only that you become one flesh and it cannot be separated and that sex is after marriage. There's no other way to read that. Everyone else just doesn't care. That's their problem so that's why they're miserable Corinthian 6:16: "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."" Sex as a form of unification is a degree of a marital contract. These degrees of marriage can be observed as, but not limited to: 1) Marriage ritual (divine covenant) 2) Marraige contract (group contract) 3) Sex (physical contract) It is. I know a guy who left Christianity. Got a gf and got her pregnant. Realized he sinned and Christianity is real so he wanted to get church membership back. They got married and both became Christian and are on their 3rd baby now. I'm so happy for them  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 16:37:20 GMT
Corinthian 6:16: "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."" Sex as a form of unification is a degree of a marital contract. These degrees of marriage can be observed as, but not limited to: 1) Marriage ritual (divine covenant) 2) Marraige contract (group contract) 3) Sex (physical contract) It is. I know a guy who left Christianity. Got a gf and got her pregnant. Realized he sinned and Christianity is real so he wanted to get church membership back. They got married and both became Christian and are on their 3rd baby now. I'm so happy for them That is my point, while the ideal you present is "correct", because of the chaos we observe in modern culture the "exact order" has to be worked out and most relationships maintain a practical real life element which can only be condemned if the couples do not seek moral resolution. |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 18, 2018 16:39:51 GMT
It is. I know a guy who left Christianity. Got a gf and got her pregnant. Realized he sinned and Christianity is real so he wanted to get church membership back. They got married and both became Christian and are on their 3rd baby now. I'm so happy for them That is my point, while the ideal you present is "correct", because of the chaos we observe in modern culture the "exact order" has to be worked out and most relationships maintain a practical real life element which can only be condemned if the couples do not seek moral resolution. What do mean? They did it biblically and are married and have a family. They're settled for life now and plan to grow their family as God commanded. They fixed it right away to the bible. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 13:44:34 GMT
That is my point, while the ideal you present is "correct", because of the chaos we observe in modern culture the "exact order" has to be worked out and most relationships maintain a practical real life element which can only be condemned if the couples do not seek moral resolution. What do mean? They did it biblically and are married and have a family. They're settled for life now and plan to grow their family as God commanded. They fixed it right away to the bible. Getting the girlfriend pregnant first is not biblical. The relationship started with "lust", but moved towards love in the end. Most relationships cannot start out with love because most people do not really know eachother until they are married or have spend a sizable amount of time with eachother dealing with real life issues (ie childhood friends). |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 16:19:10 GMT
What do mean? They did it biblically and are married and have a family. They're settled for life now and plan to grow their family as God commanded. They fixed it right away to the bible. Getting the girlfriend pregnant first is not biblical. The relationship started with "lust", but moved towards love in the end. Most relationships cannot start out with love because most people do not really know eachother until they are married or have spend a sizable amount of time with eachother dealing with real life issues (ie childhood friends). I never said it was. I said they became Christian and became married and are on baby 3 now. Since God wants them married and having a family. They became baptised too and did everything needed to undo the wrong way. They freaked out they were going to hell and did it God's way to fix it |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 16:49:39 GMT
Getting the girlfriend pregnant first is not biblical. The relationship started with "lust", but moved towards love in the end. Most relationships cannot start out with love because most people do not really know eachother until they are married or have spend a sizable amount of time with eachother dealing with real life issues (ie childhood friends). I never said it was. I said they became Christian and became married and are on baby 3 now. Since God wants them married and having a family. They became baptised too and did everything needed to undo the wrong way. They freaked out they were going to hell and did it God's way to fix it In my experience life can be hell even if you are "good" with good being: Community Service, Honesty, Chastity, Prayer, etc.. Fear and Pain just don't give the necessary motivation after awhile. My point is that while they may have gotten together because of lust, then fear, it eventually ended in love and that itself cannot be proven except through time. This point is to elaborate that the premises for many notions of marriage being "started on love" are very rarely true and provide standards which do not measure to reality, but are too subjective to be universalized. In simpler terms they provide no order. I will be frank, I hold a massive grudge towards Christianity considering my experiences with it. If the option of persecution ever came, I would have little issue with it. Will I persecute or harm anyone for their faith however? No. Now the reason I say this is to emphasize that what I am about to say may be construed as subjective opinion, and it very well may be interpretted as such, but has objective origins where the situations where observed for what they are. In all truth I have never seen Christianity, regardless of the denomination, bring any form of moral order or balance to its immediate surroundings. My experience, and part of the the reason why this may be the case is as follows: 1) The services are oriented more towards women and fail to give not just practical advice but a place for men. 2) The preaching, and I have observed this in real life from various priests and pastors, is mostly received off of the internet. 3) It provides no opportunity for repentance, as in "If I have "x" problem but want to change" the church community walls of those people for fear of loss of identity. 4) Fear of hell (chaos/death) and apocalyptic scenarios provide the only means of reaching out to people. No brotherhood is offered. No opportunity to find a wife and start a family is offered. To place of any form at all is offered. All "love" which is offered as an outreach is usually superficial as in: opening a door, "I am so sorry for you situation I will pray for you...good luck", etc.. 5) The church places unspeakable burdens on the human condition in regards to proclaiming the necessity of love and friendship, when the majority of the institutions are full of gossip if one is to shut their mouth and listen to what other's have to say. I have found little truth in "love" or "friendship" other than a brief, oftentimes fading...warmth. People come and People go, the churches I use as proof of this truth. 6) No misconduct is allowed for the men, but neither is the option to marry given either...hence the men are in a continual state of frustration, generally emasculated, or just don't come. Women are not disciplined for any of these transgressions and the balance is one sided examples of this can be observed in their means of dressing. If a man looks he is "bad", if he does not look "something is wrong with him". 7) The messages loop through one another: Trust in Jesus...okay. Pray...okay. Confess sins...okay... I have been down that route of "Jesus take the wheel" literally dozens of times due to various life difficulties. The truth is no matter how hard you pray, cry, scream...praise god...whatever...the constant message is you are alone. The one "truth" I can say with no doubt at all is that what "is present" is a continual, somewhat abstract, burning darkness. The only truth I have learn, personally speaking, is that while God may exist, may be loving, etc....I don't trust him...at all. 8) Some of the people that tried to...how to word this..."f'ck" me the hardest either metaphorically or sometimes literally were usually of a hyper-religious bent. 9) Religion offers fear and no hope, at least in my experience, and what hope it does give is little relative to the basic fears of life. 10) Bible camps with kids running around does little to teach these very same kids about being part of and responsible for someone other than themselves and creates the problems the churches preaches against...but this may simply be a problem of it as an extension of modern society. |
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 19:31:47 GMT
I never said it was. I said they became Christian and became married and are on baby 3 now. Since God wants them married and having a family. They became baptised too and did everything needed to undo the wrong way. They freaked out they were going to hell and did it God's way to fix it In my experience life can be hell even if you are "good" with good being: Community Service, Honesty, Chastity, Prayer, etc.. Fear and Pain just don't give the necessary motivation after awhile. My point is that while they may have gotten together because of lust, then fear, it eventually ended in love and that itself cannot be proven except through time. This point is to elaborate that the premises for many notions of marriage being "started on love" are very rarely true and provide standards which do not measure to reality, but are too subjective to be universalized. In simpler terms they provide no order. I will be frank, I hold a massive grudge towards Christianity considering my experiences with it. If the option of persecution ever came, I would have little issue with it. Will I persecute or harm anyone for their faith however? No. Now the reason I say this is to emphasize that what I am about to say may be construed as subjective opinion, and it very well may be interpretted as such, but has objective origins where the situations where observed for what they are. In all truth I have never seen Christianity, regardless of the denomination, bring any form of moral order or balance to its immediate surroundings. My experience, and part of the the reason why this may be the case is as follows: 1) The services are oriented more towards women and fail to give not just practical advice but a place for men. 2) The preaching, and I have observed this in real life from various priests and pastors, is mostly received off of the internet. 3) It provides no opportunity for repentance, as in "If I have "x" problem but want to change" the church community walls of those people for fear of loss of identity. 4) Fear of hell (chaos/death) and apocalyptic scenarios provide the only means of reaching out to people. No brotherhood is offered. No opportunity to find a wife and start a family is offered. To place of any form at all is offered. All "love" which is offered as an outreach is usually superficial as in: opening a door, "I am so sorry for you situation I will pray for you...good luck", etc.. 5) The church places unspeakable burdens on the human condition in regards to proclaiming the necessity of love and friendship, when the majority of the institutions are full of gossip if one is to shut their mouth and listen to what other's have to say. I have found little truth in "love" or "friendship" other than a brief, oftentimes fading...warmth. People come and People go, the churches I use as proof of this truth. 6) No misconduct is allowed for the men, but neither is the option to marry given either...hence the men are in a continual state of frustration, generally emasculated, or just don't come. Women are not disciplined for any of these transgressions and the balance is one sided examples of this can be observed in their means of dressing. If a man looks he is "bad", if he does not look "something is wrong with him". 7) The messages loop through one another: Trust in Jesus...okay. Pray...okay. Confess sins...okay... I have been down that route of "Jesus take the wheel" literally dozens of times due to various life difficulties. The truth is no matter how hard you pray, cry, scream...praise god...whatever...the constant message is you are alone. The one "truth" I can say with no doubt at all is that what "is present" is a continual, somewhat abstract, burning darkness. The only truth I have learn, personally speaking, is that while God may exist, may be loving, etc....I don't trust him...at all. 8) Some of the people that tried to...how to word this..."f'ck" me the hardest either metaphorically or sometimes literally were usually of a hyper-religious bent. 9) Religion offers fear and no hope, at least in my experience, and what hope it does give is little relative to the basic fears of life. 10) Bible camps with kids running around does little to teach these very same kids about being part of and responsible for someone other than themselves and creates the problems the churches preaches against...but this may simply be a problem of it as an extension of modern society. I think you just went to unChristian churches. Bible says real Christian churches are rare. Sounds like the ones you've been to I'd not attend Shrug |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 14:39:51 GMT
In my experience life can be hell even if you are "good" with good being: Community Service, Honesty, Chastity, Prayer, etc.. Fear and Pain just don't give the necessary motivation after awhile. My point is that while they may have gotten together because of lust, then fear, it eventually ended in love and that itself cannot be proven except through time. This point is to elaborate that the premises for many notions of marriage being "started on love" are very rarely true and provide standards which do not measure to reality, but are too subjective to be universalized. In simpler terms they provide no order. I will be frank, I hold a massive grudge towards Christianity considering my experiences with it. If the option of persecution ever came, I would have little issue with it. Will I persecute or harm anyone for their faith however? No. Now the reason I say this is to emphasize that what I am about to say may be construed as subjective opinion, and it very well may be interpretted as such, but has objective origins where the situations where observed for what they are. In all truth I have never seen Christianity, regardless of the denomination, bring any form of moral order or balance to its immediate surroundings. My experience, and part of the the reason why this may be the case is as follows: 1) The services are oriented more towards women and fail to give not just practical advice but a place for men. 2) The preaching, and I have observed this in real life from various priests and pastors, is mostly received off of the internet. 3) It provides no opportunity for repentance, as in "If I have "x" problem but want to change" the church community walls of those people for fear of loss of identity. 4) Fear of hell (chaos/death) and apocalyptic scenarios provide the only means of reaching out to people. No brotherhood is offered. No opportunity to find a wife and start a family is offered. To place of any form at all is offered. All "love" which is offered as an outreach is usually superficial as in: opening a door, "I am so sorry for you situation I will pray for you...good luck", etc.. 5) The church places unspeakable burdens on the human condition in regards to proclaiming the necessity of love and friendship, when the majority of the institutions are full of gossip if one is to shut their mouth and listen to what other's have to say. I have found little truth in "love" or "friendship" other than a brief, oftentimes fading...warmth. People come and People go, the churches I use as proof of this truth. 6) No misconduct is allowed for the men, but neither is the option to marry given either...hence the men are in a continual state of frustration, generally emasculated, or just don't come. Women are not disciplined for any of these transgressions and the balance is one sided examples of this can be observed in their means of dressing. If a man looks he is "bad", if he does not look "something is wrong with him". 7) The messages loop through one another: Trust in Jesus...okay. Pray...okay. Confess sins...okay... I have been down that route of "Jesus take the wheel" literally dozens of times due to various life difficulties. The truth is no matter how hard you pray, cry, scream...praise god...whatever...the constant message is you are alone. The one "truth" I can say with no doubt at all is that what "is present" is a continual, somewhat abstract, burning darkness. The only truth I have learn, personally speaking, is that while God may exist, may be loving, etc....I don't trust him...at all. 8) Some of the people that tried to...how to word this..."f'ck" me the hardest either metaphorically or sometimes literally were usually of a hyper-religious bent. 9) Religion offers fear and no hope, at least in my experience, and what hope it does give is little relative to the basic fears of life. 10) Bible camps with kids running around does little to teach these very same kids about being part of and responsible for someone other than themselves and creates the problems the churches preaches against...but this may simply be a problem of it as an extension of modern society. I think you just went to unChristian churches. Bible says real Christian churches are rare. Sounds like the ones you've been to I'd not attend  Like I said "we come from different worlds", yet that does not change the problem of the world I was born into. |
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mazarick
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Ethnicity: White - Caucasian
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Location: Raleigh NC
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Age: 66
Philosophy: pragmatic
Member Admiration & Reason: Elizabeth- she was there for me
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Post by mazarick on Jul 24, 2018 19:21:43 GMT
A TA in an Astronomy class I took at UNC (an Iranian named Medhat Ghaffari) explained it to me when he was on the way to the airport to pick up his bride that he never met. I was 18 years old and found this to be really strange.
Medhat said, "when you are young, you really don't know what you want in a life mate and are likely to make the wrong decision for the wrong reason. Who will look after your long term interests better than your parents? In Iran, we let parents make this decision because we know that we don't know what we want when we are young."
I have been a respecter of arranged marriages ever since then. Although it is easy to cite a case of a bad parent, this is abnormal. The statistics on arranged marriages and "Western style" traditional marriages bare this out. From what I remember, roughly half of normal marriages in the US ends up in divorce of the ones that choose marriage. I don't know what the statistics are for arranged marriages, but it can't be worse. This recognizes that any marriage is not happy because it takes a lot to get thru it.
There is no happiness in divorce. Any divorce attorney is perfectly willing to listen to you while you tell your tale of woe at ~$250/hr. However, the "pie" (which will be divided 50/50) is getting smaller and smaller while you weave your tale.
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mazarick
Full Member
Posts: 103
Likes: 28
Ethnicity: White - Caucasian
Country: US
Region: Southeast
Location: Raleigh NC
Ancestry: Greek, German, Scottish, English
Politics: none
Religion: Christian
Relationship Status: Married
Hero: Thomas Jefferson
Age: 66
Philosophy: pragmatic
Member Admiration & Reason: Elizabeth- she was there for me
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Post by mazarick on Jul 24, 2018 19:36:02 GMT
A TA in an Astronomy class I took at UNC (an Iranian named Medhat Ghaffari) explained it to me when he was on the way to the airport to pick up his bride that he never met. I was 18 years old and found this to be really strange.
Medhat said, "when you are young, you really don't know what you want in a life mate and are likely to make the wrong decision for the wrong reason. Who will look after your long term interests better than your parents? In Iran, we let parents make this decision because we know that we don't know what we want when we are young."
I have been a respecter of arranged marriages ever since then. Although it is easy to cite a case of a bad parent, this is abnormal. The statistics on arranged marriages and "Western style" traditional marriages bare this out. From what I remember, roughly half of normal marriages in the US ends up in divorce of the ones that choose marriage. I don't know what the statistics are for arranged marriages, but it can't be worse. This recognizes that any marriage is not happy because it takes a lot to get thru it.
There is no happiness in divorce. Any divorce attorney is perfectly willing to listen to you while you tell your tale of woe at ~$250/hr. However, the "pie" (which will be divided 50/50) is getting smaller and smaller while you weave your tale.
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