Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:11:22 GMT
Did God test Abraham for obedience, or was it something else much less noble? We are told of Abraham's previous cowardly actions regarding Sarah, his wife. Was he actually being tested to reveal how upright the man really was? - and failed the test dismally? Nowhere in the account does it say that he passed.
What if he had refused?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 21, 2018 22:33:31 GMT
God knows everything first! He knew that Abraham would do it because he saw Abraham's heart and that he loved him and would do everything for him!
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 21, 2018 22:50:48 GMT
Fear was the motivator, Diamond. The account does not say that Abraham obeyed because he loved God. (Verse 12).
Maybe that's the downfall of the Abrahamic faiths. They fear God, not love him. Fear overrides any personal moral conviction or objection to injustice.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 21, 2018 23:01:47 GMT
Do you have any idea what it this - they are afraid of God- ? "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 110: 10) The fear of God is the operation of the grace of God in the human heart, which gives a person a sense of God's presence and the fear of offending God with sinful thought and deed.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 21, 2018 23:27:18 GMT
Fear was the motivator, Diamond. The account does not say that Abraham obeyed because he loved God. (Verse 12). Maybe that's the downfall of the Abrahamic faiths. They fear God, not love him. Fear overrides any personal moral conviction or objection to injustice. You must have fear and love as a Christian. Diamonds verse below you explains the importance of fear.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 21, 2018 23:36:43 GMT
A few more
Deuteronomy 6:24 "So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today.
Psalm 112:1 Praise the LORD! How blessed is the man who fears the LORD, Who greatly delights in His commandments.
Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him, And rescues them.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 22, 2018 0:40:18 GMT
All these quotes refer to the fear of the consequences of doing evil or wrong and they're fair enough if quoted in this context. Abraham's case is totally different. He was ordered to do evil, not good.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 0:51:49 GMT
All these quotes refer to the fear of the consequences of doing evil or wrong and they're fair enough if quoted in this context. Abraham's case is totally different. He was ordered to do evil, not good. I wouldn't call it evil. You must fear to do all that He commands, which includes His tests. Not sure how much you're familiar with tests but some have trick questions. So what you call evil in the test God gave isn't actually evil. God can't even give evil tests or commit sin. Not part of His nature. It would literally destroy Him as God.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 22, 2018 1:04:26 GMT
You say God "can't"... Actually God can do anything he likes. If he wants to do wrong then there is nothing to stop him, is there?
What if the lesson in the story (and in all history since) is that if you are told by an authority to do something right, then obey. But if you are told by the same authority to do something wrong, then overcome your fears and disobey.
Now that makes perfect sense.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 1:13:22 GMT
Sin is breaking the commandments. God can't even break the commendment of lying/bearing false witness.
So, no, God cannot do everything. God is holy and He cannot sin. The Bible tells us He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2)
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 22, 2018 3:54:29 GMT
God can be anything he wants to be and do anything he wants to do. But he chooses to limit himself and put what is right above him - yes, right, even above himself. And we can follow that example and put what is right above ourselves, above everything, even above God when he decrees unjustly. Righteousness will rule this earth one day, but only when people have learned individually and then collectively to put what is right above them. By then we will have learned to avoid leaders who force us to do wrong by subjecting us to fear while promising us great rewards.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 5:32:43 GMT
He can't sin though because that would mean He died in vain and nothing we do can save us then. Those who do right will thrn do right for no reward and will get punished for it if God is sinful and unjust. And He is very just. It is the injustice in us if we believe otherwise because we then don't know God.
Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 5:39:17 GMT
Because as I mentioned earlier. God doesn't kill the innocent. Isaac was never in any danger. If God wanted Him dead, He would have not stopped Abraham from killing him. Saying to kill was a test only. Just like in the story of Solomon. He said to kill the baby to test who the mother was. The baby was never harmed and the test worked.
1 Kings 3:16-28 16 One day two women came to King Solomon, 17 and one of them said:
Your Majesty, this woman and I live in the same house. Not long ago my baby was born at home, 18 and three days later her baby was born. Nobody else was there with us.
19 One night while we were all asleep, she rolled over on her baby, and he died. 20 Then while I was still asleep, she got up and took my son out of my bed. She put him in her bed, then she put her dead baby next to me.
21 In the morning when I got up to feed my son, I saw that he was dead. But when I looked at him in the light, I knew he wasn’t my son.
22 “No!” the other woman shouted. “He was your son. My baby is alive!”
“The dead baby is yours,” the first woman yelled. “Mine is alive!”
They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23 until finally he said, “Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24 Someone bring me a sword.”
A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25 “Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.”
26 “Please don’t kill my son,” the baby’s mother screamed. “Your Majesty, I love him very much, but give him to her. Just don’t kill him.”
The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.”
27 Solomon said, “Don’t kill the baby.” Then he pointed to the first woman, “She is his real mother. Give the baby to her.”
28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 22, 2018 7:16:25 GMT
Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. That's what all the grovelling yes-men say out of fear for their lives.
1 Kings 3;26 The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.” The story is about two prostitutes, two babies and a king. Nothing to do with God. And it would make only slightly more sense if the second woman had spoken first.
Having said that, the story illustrates one woman putting wrong above everything, and another who puts right above everything.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 22, 2018 7:20:30 GMT
I ask again: What if Abraham refused? Would God have condemned him for being disobedient or would he have been commended for refusing to commit murder? If he had refused, he would have failed the test. The best response would have been to question the request, not to refuse it. Obedience is second best, still passing as the Old Testament indicates, but suboptimal. Refusing without questioning is saying that you know better than God, and this is a complete failure, much like modern culture is a complete failure. Fear was the motivator, Diamond. The account does not say that Abraham obeyed because he loved God. (Verse 12). Maybe that's the downfall of the Abrahamic faiths. They fear God, not love him. Fear overrides any personal moral conviction or objection to injustice. As Machiavelli correctly points out in "The Prince", it is better be feared than to be loved. www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm#link2HCH0017This certainly applies just as well to God. Christianity went bad when it began to love God more than fear him. God represents reality, the consequences of your actions, and when you stop fearing this, you are in big trouble. Fear doesn't prevent questioning, it just prevents recklessness.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 7:23:41 GMT
Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. That's what all the grovelling yes-men say out of fear for their lives.1 Kings 3;26 The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.” The story is about two prostitutes, two babies and a king. Nothing to do with God. And it would make only slightly more sense if the second woman had spoken first. Having said that, the story illustrates one woman putting wrong above everything, and another who puts right above everything. 28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly. Solomon asked God to be wise. And this is how God gave him wisdom as the verse says. God wanted him to mention a killing because then the real mother would cry out for her child. So the story isn't about who the women were but about how wise he was by God to figure out who is the real mother.
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