Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:11:22 GMT
Did God test Abraham for obedience, or was it something else much less noble? We are told of Abraham's previous cowardly actions regarding Sarah, his wife. Was he actually being tested to reveal how upright the man really was? - and failed the test dismally? Nowhere in the account does it say that he passed.
What if he had refused?
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 2:20:47 GMT
First of all are you referring to the time when God asked him to sacrifice his son or something else?
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:31:10 GMT
Yes. Genesis Chapter 22 Verse 1: "Sometime later God tested Abraham." We are not told what he was being tested for; only that he was being tested.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 2:43:46 GMT
Ok, so yes, God tested him to see if he was truly willing to follow and obey Him. Every Christian will have tests in life too. Job was tested, Jesus was tested in human form, and so on. So, God wanted to see if Abraham would be able to give up his beloved son for Him.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 2:48:03 GMT
Every test is different and could be testing you on any commandment too. In Abraham's case God probably wanted to have him prove if He loved Him more or his son because you're supposed to love God more. And Abraham showed that he's be willing to give up the child he always wanted to prove to God his devotion to Him. Now don't get me wrong, God isn't for killing innocent people and He did prevent it right before Abraham did it. So he passed by obedience. Otherwise he would have failed and that would be against him.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:52:09 GMT
Does that mean that all terrorists are right to follow God's orders and kill? Are they not just being obedient to divine will and thus excused responsibility for their deeds? And how do they (or Abraham) know that it is God ordering the deed and not the devil?
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 18, 2018 3:09:28 GMT
Does that mean that all terrorists are right to follow God's orders and kill? Are they not just being obedient to divine will and thus excused responsibility for their deeds? And how do they (or Abraham) know that it is God ordering the deed and not the devil? By 'all terrorists' I assume you're only referring to those killing under the pretense of supposed divine approval.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 3:10:29 GMT
Does that mean that all terrorists are right to follow God's orders and kill? No, it does not. You know how people have death penalty or capital punishment now? Basically that is considered a "justified" killing in court. This was what existed in the old testament as well. God was the judge and His people the court. Some were given the death penalty for a certain sin. Now it wasn't for all since but for some. Like nowadays only some crimes get death penalty. So, with God the innocents will not be given the death penalty. Isaac would have been not killed by that knife Abraham had. Abraham would have just been punished. Yes, God could still take his son through a natural death but God decides when we die not someone else decides so if Isaac were to naturally die it would be not be because his father didn't obey because we are not punished by other people's sins or whatever the bible says. But thing is, people in the old testament corrupted the law and in the new testament God removed the death penalty. So if anyone is doing killings now then they're not following God. When God/Jesus saw a woman ready to be stoned for a sin, He stopped it. Yes, normally she'd be killed by old testament laws but laws can be missused and innocent people will die and this God doesn't want so He wants to have the only authority over who is to die and when and where. We as people can make mistakes but God will know who really deserves the death penalty for a crime. Please explain first question more so I know how to answer it. I'm a bit confused on it. But how did they know it was the will of God? Well, in old testament God actually spoke to them and He had a way to identify Himself so they'd know it was His order. But if in any case if you're told to go against scripture than it will not be an order from God. Like if I get an order to break a commandment then it won't be from God so I won't go do it. God won't tell you to sin against Him, ever. Wouldn't make sense if He had you do something against His will right?
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 4:18:20 GMT
To Mocha, yes.
To Elizabeth. To clarify my question: If a man kills another on God's orders, does that absolve him of murder?
I understand that God's laws in ancient times invoked the death penalty. So much so, in fact, that wholesale slaughter of innocents was decreed by God at times. And with the coming of Christ that savagery was abandoned. But even so, killing was known to be wrong and discouraged by God right back as far as Cain. What can we glean from the Bible record?
Back in those days people dwelt under rulers who also ruled by fear. The king's or pharaoh's word was obeyed - right or wrong, just the same as God. Now fast forward a few thousand years and we find that 6 million direct descendants of Abraham were executed by the order of one supreme god-like person. A whole nation of Christians obeyed out of fear of one man. Not out of love; they forsook all integrity and let a minority of equally fearful subordinates dictate the death penalty for others. Nothing's changed, has it? We revel in democracy these days but wars by charismatic leaders continue to spring up around the world. The individual is just as vicious as he was thousands of years ago and most individuals do what they are told without question - out of fear of the consequences of disobedience. It is the first step in every war, in every case of injustice - a leader or leaders and the obedient and fearful ones who follow.
And we know that fear, not love or faith. was the motivator for Abraham because we are told so in verse 12 of Chapter 22 of Genesis.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 5:08:46 GMT
To Elizabeth. To clarify my question: If a man kills another on God's orders, does that absolve him of murder? It would. Why? Well, for example, in my country when a judge orders death penalty it isn't considered murder and people gather to see it take place. It worked much in the same way with God that whoever did some really bad crime (sin) it was death penalty. Luckily, Jesus removed that in new testament so no murder is ok now. Can you state a verse for these innocent deaths? Meaning ones that weren't considered a death penalty kind that some even practice today. Because other than crime/sin punishments I can't think of one that was just a mass murder thing since killing for fun is in indeed a sin. But people mass killing that come to mind was the ruler during Moses' time and the Pharoah during Jesus' time. Both of them were out to kill babies and both not godly men. Correct. But, only God's real people didn't obey when it was wrong to. Like the story of Daniel and his friends in old testament. They did not disobey God. Daniel's friends were even thrown into the furnace for disobeying and Daniel into a den of lions. Yet, God protected them and nothing hurt them. I don't call those people Christian. Daniel and his friends were doing God's will to reject the order, those other ones didn't reject so were not Christian. People can lie about who they are. Jesus called many people as hypocrites. So if those participated in the killings their actions revealed they were not Christian. Actions always speak louder than words. Saying you're a Christian is not the same as acting as one. Daniel and his friends didn't fear and didn't follow degree. They feared someone greater that the ruler and his degree. But godly people don't just fear doing wrong but they actually want to obey Him. People who fear will talk badly of that ruler behind his back but Christians who fear God also respect Him to not talk badly of Him. That's 2 different fears. Fear to hurt someone and be punished (God justice kind) or fear to get hurt at any cost (saving your own skin kind). Fear to disobey the God he proclaimed to worship. Kids who respect their parents will fear hurting them personally and will want to do nice things for them. Teachers that I had respect for, I feared not to disappoint them.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 6:16:54 GMT
One thing at a time:
Elizabeth wrote "Can you state a verse for these innocent deaths?"
Try 1 Samuel 15; 2-3
There are others but please don't ask me to dig them out. They're commonly plastered over the internet.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 18, 2018 6:42:42 GMT
My interpretation is that it was a test, but the opposite of what Christians believe. I think the test was whether he would be willing to question God for his family's sake as he had questioned God to defend Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham failed the test because he did not question God. The evidence is that God never spoke to Abraham again, God only sent angels/messengers to deliver messages.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2018 6:45:21 GMT
One thing at a time: Elizabeth wrote "Can you state a verse for these innocent deaths?" Try 1 Samuel 15; 2-3 There are others but please don't ask me to dig them out. They're commonly plastered over the internet. Oh, ok. Well, back in old testament there were many wars and God always protected His people. In Samuel, Amalek was a city that hurt God's people and God wanted Amalek to no longer exist. So, God called war on them to destroy them for what they did. It was basically a punishment for Amalek for hurting what belonged to God. Just like when Daniel's friends were thrown into the furnace but God saved them and burned the other guys and like when Daniel was saved by God from the lions and the wrongdoer instead was eaten. So, the deaths were only because the people did something wrong to God or His people. Like a parent will fight for their child at all times to spare them from getting hurt.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 7:50:17 GMT
My interpretation is that it was a test, but the opposite of what Christians believe. I think the test was whether he would be willing to question God for his family's sake as he had questioned God to defend Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham failed the test because he did not question God. The evidence is that God never spoke to Abraham again, God only sent angels/messengers to deliver messages. I hadn't considered that and it makes sense. But what do you make of the angel's observation of fear as told in 22; verse 12?
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 18, 2018 8:04:52 GMT
I hadn't considered that and it makes sense. But what do you make of the angel's observation of fear as told in 22; verse 12? And the rest. One has to understand this in the context of history. In Hebrew, the word "angel" and "messenger" is the same, so this should really be read as God's messenger. And there was a concept that the purpose of messengers was often to deliver meaningless positive words for diplomatic purposes. Most people who read the Old Testament don't distinguish between what is said by God and what is said by messengers. But this is critical to do. What is said by God is simply true, it reflects what the Old Testament is trying to say. But what is said by messangers isn't meant to be taken at face value, but is rather meant to express the diplomacy of God.
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