Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:11:22 GMT
Did God test Abraham for obedience, or was it something else much less noble? We are told of Abraham's previous cowardly actions regarding Sarah, his wife. Was he actually being tested to reveal how upright the man really was? - and failed the test dismally? Nowhere in the account does it say that he passed.
What if he had refused?
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 19, 2018 1:43:04 GMT
Understood, but does not the origin puzzle you? And what does it mean "in our image" , "in his image he created them"? Does it run deeper than the royal we, and what are we talking about with "image"? It can't surely be physical likeness, but like minds? In what way are our minds "in the image of God"? Also note Gen 3:22, 11:7, Exo 12:12, 15:11, 18:11, 20:3, 20:5, etc etc etc. Very interesting indeed.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 1:54:50 GMT
Understood, but does not the origin puzzle you? And what does it mean "in our image" , "in his image he created them"? Does it run deeper than the royal we, and what are we talking about with "image"? It can't surely be physical likeness, but like minds? In what way are our minds "in the image of God"? This is too deep a question to answer in a simple post. The Hebrew concept of truth is not at all like the current Western view which is based on Plato. The Hebrew concept is relative, not absolute. So in effect, this is saying that God, which is a Hebrew idea, not absolute, created people in the likeness of the idea of God. But this is a very non-Western, non-Christian view. If you really want to understand this, I suggest starting with this book: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0096BCVPG/
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 2:37:24 GMT
Image of God= to be like Him, not as God, but in His nature. We were made to serve Him and act like Him. In new testament we're always reminded to be like God. 1 Peter 1:15-16 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
Matthew 5:48 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
The word Christian means Christ-like because we must be like Him.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 2:44:08 GMT
fschmidt I saw you said Abraham failed. Umm are you saying Abraham should always question God's orders before obeying? I mean if my future kids did that then I wouldn't be very happy with them . And God still spoke to Abraham to stop the killing though with an angel. So both were there. But angels are God's messagers so another way God uses to speak. Therefore, whether God or angel...in the end it is still God telling you thing. Or no? What's your understanding?
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 3:01:04 GMT
fschmidt I saw you said Abraham failed. Umm are you saying Abraham should always question God's orders before obeying? I mean if my future kids did that then I wouldn't be very happy with them . And God still spoke to Abraham to stop the killing though with an angel. So both were there. But angels are God's messagers so another way God uses to speak. Therefore, whether God or angel...in the end it is still God telling you thing. Or no? What's your understanding? In this case, Abraham should have questioned God. The angel wasn't lying, but talking to an angel is a step down from talking to God. So basically Abraham got a B on the test (not failing I guess). To get an A, he should have questioned God. I have kids and I taught them to question all authority without exception. I did this by taking wrong positions and having them debate me about them. I think this is culturally jewish which is why jews tend to be good at debate. Many other cultures encourage kids to submit to authority, but that isn't what the Old Testament teaches.
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 19, 2018 3:04:18 GMT
fschmidt I saw you said Abraham failed. Umm are you saying Abraham should always question God's orders before obeying? I mean if my future kids did that then I wouldn't be very happy with them . And God still spoke to Abraham to stop the killing though with an angel. So both were there. But angels are God's messagers so another way God uses to speak. Therefore, whether God or angel...in the end it is still God telling you thing. Or no? What's your understanding? In this case, Abraham should have questioned God. The angel wasn't lying, but talking to an angel is a step down from talking to God. So basically Abraham got a B on the test (not failing I guess). To get an A, he should have questioned God. I have kids and I taught them to question all authority without exception. I did this by taking wrong positions and having them debate me about them. I think this is culturally jewish which is why jews tend to be good at debate. Many other cultures encourage kids to submit to authority, but that isn't what the Old Testament teaches. You are a good parent.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 3:09:46 GMT
fschmidt I saw you said Abraham failed. Umm are you saying Abraham should always question God's orders before obeying? I mean if my future kids did that then I wouldn't be very happy with them . And God still spoke to Abraham to stop the killing though with an angel. So both were there. But angels are God's messagers so another way God uses to speak. Therefore, whether God or angel...in the end it is still God telling you thing. Or no? What's your understanding? In this case, Abraham should have questioned God. The angel wasn't lying, but talking to an angel is a step down from talking to God. So basically Abraham got a B on the test (not failing I guess). To get an A, he should have questioned God. I have kids and I taught them to question all authority without exception. I did this by taking wrong positions and having them debate me about them. I think this is culturally jewish which is why jews tend to be good at debate. Many other cultures encourage kids to submit to authority, but that isn't what the Old Testament teaches. What would you make of this verse if Old Testament doesn't want kids to submit. Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. 14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell. Hell or sheol, whichever you prefer.
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 19, 2018 3:12:22 GMT
In this case, Abraham should have questioned God. The angel wasn't lying, but talking to an angel is a step down from talking to God. So basically Abraham got a B on the test (not failing I guess). To get an A, he should have questioned God. I have kids and I taught them to question all authority without exception. I did this by taking wrong positions and having them debate me about them. I think this is culturally jewish which is why jews tend to be good at debate. Many other cultures encourage kids to submit to authority, but that isn't what the Old Testament teaches. What would you make of this verse if Old Testament doesn't want kids to submit. Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. 14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell. Hell or sheol, whichever you prefer. From an outside POV, it looks like it's refering to disobedience rather than disagreement
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 3:15:44 GMT
What would you make of this verse if Old Testament doesn't want kids to submit. Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. 14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell. Hell or sheol, whichever you prefer. The purpose of discipline is not submission. The purpose is to teach that there are consequences for bad actions. One should punish children for bad actions, but not for questioning authority, the parent's authority or anyone else's.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 3:18:16 GMT
What would you make of this verse if Old Testament doesn't want kids to submit. Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. 14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell. Hell or sheol, whichever you prefer. From an outside POV, it looks like it's refering to disobedience rather than disagreement Kids can disagree on what they should obey though, can't they?
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 19, 2018 3:22:58 GMT
From an outside POV, it looks like it's refering to disobedience rather than disagreement Kids can disagree on what they should obey though, can't they? And then that would be both! But the problem would still be disobedience, not disagreement. Not gonna punish a kid for not having the same favorite ice cream flavor
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 3:22:59 GMT
What would you make of this verse if Old Testament doesn't want kids to submit. Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. 14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell. Hell or sheol, whichever you prefer. The purpose of discipline is not submission. The purpose is to teach that there are consequences for bad actions. One should punish children for bad actions, but not for questioning authority, the parent's authority or anyone else's. Yeah, I mean not all authority is correct so questioning most is fine. Just questioning God would be unnecessary as I see it. As you said Abraham questioned God about Sodom and Gomorrah. Did that prevent God from exercising His authority to destroy the place anyway? It did not. Whether he questioned God or not, the result would be God doing what He wants.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 3:29:29 GMT
Yeah, I mean not all authority is correct so questioning most is fine. Just questioning God would be unnecessary as I see it. As you said Abraham questioned God about Sodom and Gomorrah. Did that prevent God from exercising His authority to destroy the place anyway? It did not. Whether he questioned God or not, the result would be God doing what He wants. In the Old Testament, God wants us to use our brain to question everything. Why did God argue with Moses? For the same reason that I argued wrong positions with my kids, to teach Moses to think for himself. Another example is God telling Adam that he will only eat by painful labor (farming). Then Abel violates this by creative thinking and invents shepherding. And of course God is pleased because Abel used his brain and did't just submit to God's curse on Adam. This is the spirit of the Old Testament which is almost the opposite of Christianity and Islam.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 19, 2018 3:34:35 GMT
This is too deep a question to answer in a simple post. The Hebrew concept of truth is not at all like the current Western view which is based on Plato. The Hebrew concept is relative, not absolute. So in effect, this is saying that God, which is a Hebrew idea, not absolute, created people in the likeness of the idea of God. But this is a very non-Western, non-Christian view. If you really want to understand this, I suggest starting with this book: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0096BCVPG/Looks interesting. I've spent the last hour or more reading reviews and checking prices. It's expensive and i wouldn't get it delivered for 3 weeks. Have you read it and is it an eye-opener?
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 3:39:45 GMT
Looks interesting. I've spent the last hour or more reading reviews and checking prices. It's expensive and i wouldn't get it delivered for 3 weeks. Have you read it and is it an eye-opener? Yes, it is one of the few books worth reading that was written in the last century. But you need to know some basic philosophy. You should have at least read some Plato.
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