Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 18, 2018 2:11:22 GMT
Did God test Abraham for obedience, or was it something else much less noble? We are told of Abraham's previous cowardly actions regarding Sarah, his wife. Was he actually being tested to reveal how upright the man really was? - and failed the test dismally? Nowhere in the account does it say that he passed.
What if he had refused?
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vaeril
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Post by vaeril on Feb 19, 2018 3:41:53 GMT
I don't see what else there is to talk about there is nothing else behind Abraham's test God tested him to see if he would give his beloved son to him so he could give his to us.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 3:55:36 GMT
Yeah, I mean not all authority is correct so questioning most is fine. Just questioning God would be unnecessary as I see it. As you said Abraham questioned God about Sodom and Gomorrah. Did that prevent God from exercising His authority to destroy the place anyway? It did not. Whether he questioned God or not, the result would be God doing what He wants. In the Old Testament, God wants us to use our brain to question everything. Why did God argue with Moses? For the same reason that I argued wrong positions with my kids, to teach Moses to think for himself. Another example is God telling Adam that he will only eat by painful labor (farming). Then Abel violates this by creative thinking and invents shepherding. And of course God is pleased because Abel used his brain and did't just submit to God's curse on Adam. This is the spirit of the Old Testament which is almost the opposite of Christianity and Islam. I don't see it like that. We still labor and do farming to this day. My city is very known for farms. And when I lived in Ukraine it was more painful labor. In Garden of Eden they did no work but now we will always have some type of work to do and level of painful will vary of it. So the curse never left as I see it and God's curses never will since it's like a mark from God.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 4:11:27 GMT
I don't see it like that. We still labor and do farming to this day. My city is very known for farms. And when I lived in Ukraine it was more painful labor. In Garden of Eden they did no work but now we will always have some type of work to do and level of painful will vary of it. So the curse never left as I see it and God's curses never will since it's like a mark from God. The Old Testament clearly prefers the shepherd over the farmer. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David were all shepherds. This is tied to our topic of obedience. At the time of the Old Testament, farmers were tied to their land which meant that they were forced to submit to the nation that owned that land. Shepherds were mobile, so they were more free but usually poorer. In Egypt, shepherds got no respect. Egypt, like all empires of that time, was based on farming. Empires work by having a ruling class and submissive workers. The analogy doesn't work today. The modern equivalent of ancient farmers is employees and the equivalent of shepherds are small business people. The Old Testament is not for everyone, it is not a universal religion like Christianity or Islam. The Old Testament is for people who value freedom over wealth and who reject submission. And these are the values of the ancient shepherd.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 19, 2018 5:10:51 GMT
"The Old Testament is for people who value freedom over wealth and who reject submission. And these are the values of the ancient shepherd." - fschmidt
“Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide, and slavery - have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience.” ― Howard Zinn
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 5:50:16 GMT
"The Old Testament is for people who value freedom over wealth and who reject submission. And these are the values of the ancient shepherd." - fschmidt “Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide, and slavery - have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience.” ― Howard Zinn That's saying obedience is bad. But why do we make laws then? It is to prevent people from killing each other basically. War is from lack of agreement. Genocide is from hate. Slavery is from pride to have people below you.
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 19, 2018 7:20:14 GMT
That's one way of looking at it, Elizabeth.
The other way of looking at it is the failure to choose what is right. If the order is right, then obey. If it is wrong, then disobey. Laws should always be right and just, and if they're not then we see mass civil disobedience.
War is when others mass to kill for a leader, when sensibly the leader should sort out his own disagreement by bearing arms alone. Genocide is from hate whipped up by leaders, yes, but carried out by yes-men. Slavery cannot endure unless too many people obey the slave-master.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." It doesn't matter who said this, it is so true. It needs people to think for themselves and do what is right, (as Jesus taught us to think for ourselves and act accordingly).
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 7:40:29 GMT
So, yes, when laws are just and right we obey. Then there's no need to even question them right?
And I agree if laws aren't just or right then yes question them.
But in scripture it says God is just so all His laws are just then. Meaning there is no need to question if they're just. And if they're just then they're good and must be fulfilled. Otherwise, as mentioned..."The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 19, 2018 7:40:38 GMT
Questioning God is allowed in OT? I'd assume it would be just to obey though. There is actually no word in biblical Hebrew for "obey". There is only listen (Hebrew "shma") which is sometimes mistranslated as "obey" by Christians. In Exodus 32:9-14 Moses argues with God and wins. Shma Israel: Adonai - Eloheinu - Adonai Ehad! The One God is mentioned three times. Two times Adonai and once Eloheinu! Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one! The word "Shma" begins with the letter Shin! Jesus Christ - in Hebrew - Ye shua Hama shiach! The form of this letter reminds the Holy Trinity! In gematria the letter ש has a numerical value of 300. Jesus said - "If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me."(John 5:39, 46)
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 19, 2018 8:17:54 GMT
Well said, Elizabeth.
But laws are so cumbersome and massive in detail. They have to cover every aspect of life. Has it ever crossed your mind that if everybody chose to do what is right, then there'd be no need for them?
Then there would be nobody to obey. You'd just obey what is right.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 8:31:18 GMT
That would be great always obeying what's right. But with that concept we lose our free will. We would know nothing else but obeying what is right. I mean I like it because world would be a great place and actually 100% safe. However, with free will in place, we see many people don't want what is right by observation. So, based on the outlook, it appears people prefer free will as we have it. The people who want to obey what is right can still do so, but with their own desire and give it actual meaning that how it would be without free will.
But how do the 10 commandments not cover every expect of life?
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 8:40:06 GMT
Shma Israel: Adonai - Eloheinu - Adonai Ehad! The One God is mentioned three times. Two times Adonai and once Eloheinu! Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one! Actually it's: Shma Yisrael, YHVH eloheinu, YHVH ehad. Translated: Listen Israel, Yehovah is our god, Yehovah is one.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 19, 2018 8:42:02 GMT
Shma Israel: Adonai - Eloheinu - Adonai Ehad! The One God is mentioned three times. Two times Adonai and once Eloheinu! Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one! Actually it's: Shma Yisrael, YHVH eloheinu, YHVH ehad. Translated: Listen Israel, Yehovah is our god, Yehovah is one. Well, the essence of this does not change! You said that you follow only the Old Testament?
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Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 19, 2018 8:42:16 GMT
There would still be ample scope for free will when trying to do right. I mean, you'd still have a choice on what to watch on TV, what profession you choose, what to do on a weekend, how to plant your garden, what book to read, who to make friends with etc.etc. Nothing, really, would be different in your daily life except you wouldn't have to lock your door.
And the 10 commandments would be all you need, I agree. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" covers all daily interactions with others.
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Post by fschmidt on Feb 19, 2018 8:54:19 GMT
Actually it's: Shma Yisrael, YHVH eloheinu, YHVH ehad. Translated: Listen Israel, Yehovah is our god, Yehovah is one. Well, the essence of this does not change! Actually it does in a subtle way that directly relates to this thread. A lord demands obedience and submission, while God (Yehovah) does not. So calling God "Lord" is misrepresenting God. This is why: God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yehovah, the god of your fathers, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever this is how I am to be remembered in every generation. -- Exodus 3:15 Calling God "Lord" or "adonai" violates this.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 19, 2018 9:05:18 GMT
There would still be ample scope for free will when trying to do right. I mean, you'd still have a choice on what to watch on TV, what profession you choose, what to do on a weekend, how to plant your garden, what book to read, who to make friends with etc.etc. Nothing, really, would be different in your daily life except you wouldn't have to lock your door. And the 10 commandments would be all you need, I agree. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" covers all daily interactions with others. That's a bit confusing for me so hoping you can explain it better after I mention the confusing part. So obey what is right is what it will be. But then you also said they have a choice in things. Well, for example before Adam and Eve ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they only knew good and doing what's right. So nothing sinful/wrong existed then. Meaning if the world continued without them wanting free will then there would be many careers not existent and divorce nonexistent and so on. But in your reply you're saying they still have these choices to chose from still. So like choosing a career to be a hitman for example would still exist in your story. While, in no free will of God's story it wouldn't be there even as an option ever of obeying what's right. So your example seems to allow the chance of someone not to obey what's right in some cases which got me confused.
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