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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 12, 2017 11:33:03 GMT
I’m an Agnostic, I believe religion is something the human brain invented in its early stage of (civilian) development. It was the answer to many unanswered things it had to process. Some kind of coping mechanism.
You see a trend of religions all over the world. They each created their own religions to answer their questions. For example Native Americans didn’t know what Christianity or Judaism was. So they created their own polytheistic religion. That to them was the way they could reason how things were as they were. Same for Viking Scandanavia with Paganism, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and so on. Then you have Eastern religions which center more around philosophical beliefs like Buddhism, Taoism, etc. You have Hinduism. You have Africans who believe the great JuJu at the top of the mountain or whatever. You have Mormons who created a religion very recently compared to most other religions. Finally you have the Abrahamic religions which the majority of the modern world follow. You have monotheistic, polytheistic, Eastern, Western, Abrahamic, etc religions. But the thing that they all have in common was when each civilization was going through their civilian development they came up with a way to answer their questions. All through different times in history in different parts of the world.
All religions can’t be right because they all contradict each other but they can all be wrong.
Believing that there is something else out there greater than us that created this isn’t an illogical opinion. To point at a specific religion with a specific god and holy book is illogical and not plausible in my opinion.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 12, 2017 13:52:51 GMT
So...what you are really saying is that he didn't create religion to really explain anything but to brainwash? If so, then I agree. I mean what can he really explain? He gave 50+ prophesies and only 2 came true. Only thing he explains to me is that he has a big ego and a small IQ. Bravo we agree, only I feel most religions are forms of brainwashing. The concept of religion is the biggest form of brainwashing to ever take hold of mankind. You're implying that religion is always brainwashing. Why can't it also be something that makes sense to an individual like saying I must drink milk every day because it is good for me. Doesn't mean they have to drink it every day and they aren't brainwashed if they do just because they want to keep their bones strong.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 12, 2017 13:56:07 GMT
Bravo we agree, only I feel most religions are forms of brainwashing. The concept of religion is the biggest form of brainwashing to ever take hold of mankind. You're implying that religion is always brainwashing. Why can't it also be something that makes sense to an individual like saying I must drink milk every day because it is good for me. Doesn't mean they have to drink it every day and they aren't brainwashed if they do just because they want to keep their bones strong. It can be both, I think religion can do both great good and great harm. It depends on the individual. Some weak minded people need religion, because they can’t cope with that possibility of there being nothing after this, or that this is all here for no reason. Wondering what is the point of existence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 13:57:58 GMT
Bravo we agree, only I feel most religions are forms of brainwashing. The concept of religion is the biggest form of brainwashing to ever take hold of mankind. You're implying that religion is always brainwashing. Why can't it also be something that makes sense to an individual like saying I must drink milk every day because it is good for me. Doesn't mean they have to drink it every day and they aren't brainwashed if they do just because they want to keep their bones strong. We have to eat veg food in india, this is part of religion here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 14:47:04 GMT
Anyone can follow anything which they wish, however, there should not be any curb on freedom of expression, races and individuality.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 12, 2017 23:46:43 GMT
Religion is very much like a business. People invest a lot of time and money into the establishment of religious institutions for the main purpose of controlling those who follow them. It's about money and power, not faith. The idea of faith is just a ploy to manipulate moldable minds into submitting themselves spiritually and financially to those who control them. Blind faith is the key tenet to any social structure.
Religion is largely driven by fear. people fear being punished for eternity and so people live their lives trying to adhere to their own religious guidelines. in hope that someday they will be rewarded for devoting their lives to religion. Also fear of the unknown, the fear of death it’s self. A concept I’m fascinated with. Most religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, promise you will never truly die. Most people don’t their existence to end. People want reassurance that their lives have purpose.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 13, 2017 1:26:11 GMT
Religion is very much like a business. People invest a lot of time and money into the establishment of religious institutions for the main purpose of controlling those who follow them. It's about money and power, not faith. So, when my church decides how many money to give each month to the charities we support, to the blind ministry, etc. We are stealing money and rise in power? We can be forced to do something? I had no clue they held a gun to my head Why must it be fear? It can't just be devotion to serve a God? All people fear death? I wish...suicides will be done with then.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 13, 2017 1:59:24 GMT
Religion is very much like a business. People invest a lot of time and money into the establishment of religious institutions for the main purpose of controlling those who follow them. It's about money and power, not faith. So, when my church decides how many money to give each month to the charities we support, to the blind ministry, etc. We are stealing money and rise in power? We can be forced to do something? I had no clue they held a gun to my head Why must it be fear? It can't just be devotion to serve a God? All people fear death? I wish...suicides will be done with then. An article from 1998 estimated that less than 3 percent of the average church's budget goes towards programs that help either poor members or the needy in the community. Another says about 5%. And I don’t know if that figure has changed much in 20 years. Perhaps it has and perhaps not. I do believe that each Church is different, you obviously can’t put them all into the same category but let’s not forget. They are tax exempt. Tax exemptions violate the separation of church in state in the establishment clause of the first amendment of the constitution. A tax exemption is a form of subsidy and the constitution bars government from subsidizing religion. Also as Mark Twain said no church property is taxed so the infidel and the atheist and the man without religion are taxed to make up for this deficit in the public income thus caused. So a tax break for churches forces all Americans religious or not to support religion and that is somerhig to look at. Churches avoid north of 71 Billion in taxes per year. Of course you are missing my point, people aren’t being held at gun point but naive and moldable minds make for easy sheeple to control. Religious brainwashing starts at a young age. It’s like a cult. I do not believe most people at religious out of a real devotion for god, I believe most are god fearing and they want their soul to be immortal. Otherwise why would they devote theme selves to god? For their own reasons derived from what the worry of the alternative is. You don’t need god to be good. I didn’t say all people fear death, but it’s fair to say most people aren’t looking forward to it, and fear the unknown after, unless that is they are so convinced they are going somewhere better. Which of course religion attempts to convince. People want purpose for existence. Religion gives them this purpose.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 13, 2017 2:30:09 GMT
So, when my church decides how many money to give each month to the charities we support, to the blind ministry, etc. We are stealing money and rise in power? We can be forced to do something? I had no clue they held a gun to my head Why must it be fear? It can't just be devotion to serve a God? All people fear death? I wish...suicides will be done with then. An article from 1998 estimated that less than 3 percent of the average church's budget goes towards programs that help either poor members or the needy in the community. Another says about 5%. And I don’t know if that figure has changed much in 20 years. I do believe that each Church is different, you obviously can’t put them all into the same catogorty put let’s not forget. They are tax exempt. Well, there are many religions out there and some or most do keep the money for themselves. You wouldn't see me in one of those In my church we pick the people to handle all finances and to inform us each week how much we collected to decide what to do with it. Plus, all our "workers" like Sunday school teachers and cleaners are church members doing volunteer work. Our money doesn't get used for us. Unless for sunday school supplies, any church building updates which might arise, electricity, etc. Otherwise we give it away. Some pay taxes. But...this is just America supporting the bill of rights to allow people to chose a religion to follow if they choose to. This right exists afterall. To fix the problem you are mentioning is to remove that out of the bill of rights. This is true too. I don't understand it myself to be honest. I watched some youtube videos where some mormons were confronted with how their book of mormons actually contradicts the bible and how the bible says there are no more prophets for joseph smith to be one. And all basically said they don't care and will stick to their beliefs whether right or wrong. Like the heck? If someone proved to me that 2+2 doesn't actually equal 5, I am not gonna continue saying it does to look like a retard. Well, I can't speak for all religions but in Christianity all souls live forever whether in heaven or hell so soul is considered immortal. Does every kid devote themselves to their parents? I think only the ones who love and respect them do. I don't think they care so much about punishments if they dislike their parents. They act out on purpose then even. True. But what is good? Terrorists says they are good, murderes usually say they did the right thing...so what is the real definition of good? And how do we know? Bible technically teaches not to fear death because the next world is better anyway for Christians. But...not all religions believe in heaven after death...some can even return as another being or whatever apparently. Point is...I don't think religion is there to actually convince you but you are there to pick what you actually you believe to be true in the end.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 13, 2017 4:04:29 GMT
An article from 1998 estimated that less than 3 percent of the average church's budget goes towards programs that help either poor members or the needy in the community. Another says about 5%. And I don’t know if that figure has changed much in 20 years. I do believe that each Church is different, you obviously can’t put them all into the same catogorty put let’s not forget. They are tax exempt. Well, there are many religions out there and some or most do keep the money for themselves. You wouldn't see me in one of those In my church we pick the people to handle all finances and to inform us each week how much we collected to decide what to do with it. Plus, all our "workers" like Sunday school teachers and cleaners are church members doing volunteer work. Our money doesn't get used for us. Unless for sunday school supplies, any church building updates which might arise, electricity, etc. Otherwise we give it away. Some pay taxes. But...this is just America supporting the bill of rights to allow people to chose a religion to follow if they choose to. This right exists afterall. To fix the problem you are mentioning is to remove that out of the bill of rights. This is true too. I don't understand it myself to be honest. I watched some youtube videos where some mormons were confronted with how their book of mormons actually contradicts the bible and how the bible says there are no more prophets for joseph smith to be one. And all basically said they don't care and will stick to their beliefs whether right or wrong. Like the heck? If someone proved to me that 2+2 doesn't actually equal 5, I am not gonna continue saying it does to look like a retard. Well, I can't speak for all religions but in Christianity all souls live forever whether in heaven or hell so soul is considered immortal. Does every kid devote themselves to their parents? I think only the ones who love and respect them do. I don't think they care so much about punishments if they dislike their parents. They act out on purpose then even. True. But what is good? Terrorists says they are good, murderes usually say they did the right thing...so what is the real definition of good? And how do we know? Bible technically teaches not to fear death because the next world is better anyway for Christians. But...not all religions believe in heaven after death...some can even return as another being or whatever apparently. Point is...I don't think religion is there to actually convince you but you are there to pick what you actually you believe to be true in the end. The bill of rights doesn’t exempt churches form paying taxes though. I think people would figure out what “good” is without religion. What would be considered beneficial to most of them. A way to keep people from doing things seen as repugnant or damaging to precious fragile life. Otherwise the argument is who is to say what's evil? A man's beliefs are his own business. Neither the Church nor anybody else has the right to tell you how to act; that's what real freedom is about, to be able to be who you really are, not what you are expected or supposed to be. But how long does that mindset work before people realize that leads to nothing but uncontainable chaos. People would figure that wasn’t the way to progress as a society regardless. But yet it still remains we live in a hypocritical, moralistic dogma of this so called “civilized-society”.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 13, 2017 6:01:04 GMT
Well, there are many religions out there and some or most do keep the money for themselves. You wouldn't see me in one of those In my church we pick the people to handle all finances and to inform us each week how much we collected to decide what to do with it. Plus, all our "workers" like Sunday school teachers and cleaners are church members doing volunteer work. Our money doesn't get used for us. Unless for sunday school supplies, any church building updates which might arise, electricity, etc. Otherwise we give it away. Some pay taxes. But...this is just America supporting the bill of rights to allow people to chose a religion to follow if they choose to. This right exists afterall. To fix the problem you are mentioning is to remove that out of the bill of rights. This is true too. I don't understand it myself to be honest. I watched some youtube videos where some mormons were confronted with how their book of mormons actually contradicts the bible and how the bible says there are no more prophets for joseph smith to be one. And all basically said they don't care and will stick to their beliefs whether right or wrong. Like the heck? If someone proved to me that 2+2 doesn't actually equal 5, I am not gonna continue saying it does to look like a retard. Well, I can't speak for all religions but in Christianity all souls live forever whether in heaven or hell so soul is considered immortal. Does every kid devote themselves to their parents? I think only the ones who love and respect them do. I don't think they care so much about punishments if they dislike their parents. They act out on purpose then even. True. But what is good? Terrorists says they are good, murderes usually say they did the right thing...so what is the real definition of good? And how do we know? Bible technically teaches not to fear death because the next world is better anyway for Christians. But...not all religions believe in heaven after death...some can even return as another being or whatever apparently. Point is...I don't think religion is there to actually convince you but you are there to pick what you actually you believe to be true in the end. The bill of rights doesn’t exempt churches form paying taxes though. Actually...some religions require exemption per their written doctrine. And bill of rights that you can practice any religion...that includes those. So as I said...in order for you to get what you want the bill of rights must limit religious practice. Yeah, because the organization that decided to hijack planes on 9/11 did it for the good. It is what they said after all because it was what they viewed as beneficial for most of them. So they are good and did good as they claim? What is good and what is evil is basically the same question. If you ask what is good then what isn't listed is then evil and vice versa. And if a man's beliefs is his own business why can't they decide about tax exception based on their beliefs as it is their own business? And what if a person is meant to be religious? Isn't possible? Is it just because you feel religion tells them what to do? What if they like being told what to do? I mean some people like being their own boss or being under a boss' rules. That's still freedom and they choose it. Having a boss or not having a boss doesn't bring chaos. It is failing to do what you should and bringing chaos to a civilized society.
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Post by barker67rl on Dec 14, 2017 0:51:27 GMT
I wonder about the existence of a higher power. 1. Why is belief in a higher power almost universal? 2. I wonder if there has to be something unique in humans. When young male lions reach maturity, they leave the Pride and wander the savanna until they find a Pride led by aging, male lions. They get into a scuffle with the competing males, drive them off, kill whatever cubs remain in the Pride, and take over leadership and procreate with the remaining female lionesses. When that is observed, people shrug it off as nature taking its course. If I were to kick in the door of an affluent, suburban house, drive off the father, murder his children and start a new family with the mother, why would I be apprehended, prosecuted, and punished in almost any society on Earth that has ever existed? Why do we have a moral compass? Even those who do not believe in a higher power would be appalled by my behavior. If there is no higher power to answer to, I might as well start staking out a family to take over.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 14, 2017 1:28:41 GMT
I wonder about the existence of a higher power. 1. Why is belief in a higher power almost universal? 2. I wonder if there has to be something unique in humans. When young male lions reach maturity, they leave the Pride and wander the savanna until they find a Pride led by aging, male lions. They get into a scuffle with the competing males, drive them off, kill whatever cubs remain in the Pride, and take over leadership and procreate with the remaining female lionesses. When that is observed, people shrug it off as nature taking its course. If I were to kick in the door of an affluent, suburban house, drive off the father, murder his children and start a new family with the mother, why would I be apprehended, prosecuted, and punished in almost any society on Earth that has ever existed? Why do we have a moral compass? Even those who do not believe in a higher power would be appalled by my behavior. If there is no higher power to answer to, I might as well start staking out a family to take over. Exellent point! 1. Why is belief in a higher power almost universal? It's universal and passed down through time. So...does that mean people of the past spoke to a higher power or knew Him on a closer level? Biblically, it says yes. And another interesting thing is that many ancient civilizations mention a flood and summarize it in their own way but say there was one. So, are they right? I mean people claim to know a lot today...but do people really know everything? 2. I wonder if there has to be something unique in humans. The moral compass...yes...only humans seem to know right from wrong. Is that because humans were the only ones to eat the forbidden fruit to abtain the knowledge of right and wrong? I mean, I say yes. So l, don't go killing anyone now and making a new family since you will get prosecuted xD
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Dominicanese
Full Member
Posts: 348
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Country: Dominican Republic
Ancestry: Western Europe, West Africa, The Caribbean
Taxonomy: Atlantid + Sudanid
Y-DNA: R-L51
mtDNA: L1c2b1
Age: 25
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Post by Dominicanese on Dec 14, 2017 1:42:40 GMT
sometimes i fear that religion was created for people who feared death
we dont know whats out there
but what i do know is that history repeats and the way we manipulate creatures thru DNA, i believe earlier civilizations that once roamed the earth before us (other humans) went up to the skies and manipulated ape DNA to create us and we er gonna do the samething once we advance technologically well enough and seed another planet like this one and those will call us gods
but idk thats just me, it seems all too obvious at this point, we er all seeing this within this realm or timeline already, a clash of history happening at once
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 14, 2017 11:05:57 GMT
The bill of rights doesn’t exempt churches form paying taxes though. Actually...some religions require exemption per their written doctrine. And bill of rights that you can practice any religion...that includes those. So as I said...in order for you to get what you want the bill of rights must limit religious practice. Yeah, because the organization that decided to hijack planes on 9/11 did it for the good. It is what they said after all because it was what they viewed as beneficial for most of them. So they are good and did good as they claim? What is good and what is evil is basically the same question. If you ask what is good then what isn't listed is then evil and vice versa. And if a man's beliefs is his own business why can't they decide about tax exception based on their beliefs as it is their own business? And what if a person is meant to be religious? Isn't possible? Is it just because you feel religion tells them what to do? What if they like being told what to do? I mean some people like being their own boss or being under a boss' rules. That's still freedom and they choose it. Having a boss or not having a boss doesn't bring chaos. It is failing to do what you should and bringing chaos to a civilized society. The Bill Of Rights guarantees the right to freely practice religion. It does not say churches are exempt from taxes, some churches can find loopholes but to connect it to the Bill Of Rights seems like a leap. Most of your points are things that you won’t find a definitive answer for without going to the rabbit hole on morality, the concept of good and evil. I don’t advocate an atheist state, if people want to follow religion it’s their choice to do so at least in this country. I just don’t like cult like tendencies like Zionest Jews, Islam/Islamic terrorists, and Bible Belt idiots. One thing I can say about those people who did that terrorist attack is that the did so in the name of religion. Which isn’t surprising considering the bloody history of theocratic countries shedding blood in the name of religion. It’s really amazing how many have been killed German Peasants' War - A series of peasant revolts during the height of the Protestant Reformation, spurred on by a mix of economic and religious causes. 100k deaths for Christianity. Moro Insurgency - Islamic rebels in the Philippines have a long, bloody history of resistance against colonial and Philippine governments alike. 120k deaths for Islam. Northern Crusades - Crusades to root out the Baltic pagans. Couldn't find any good casualty estimates, but 150k deaths for Christianity seems reasonable. Algerian Civil War - More Islamist rebels. 200k deaths for Islam. Lord's Resistance Army - Christian militants in Central Africa. Remember Kony 2012? 200k deaths for Christianity. Albigensian Crusade - France leads a crusade to root Cathar heretics out of the Languedoc. Estimates up to 1 million deaths. Great Turkish War - A "Holy League" of Christian states rolls back the Ottoman Empire's conquests in Eastern Europe. 300k deaths for Christianity. Afghan Civil Wars - A variety of Islamists, including Al Qaeda, vie for control over Afghanistan. 400k deaths for Islam. Rashidun Conquests - The Islamic Caliphate conquered its way from being a desert backwater to the world's most powerful state in an incredibly short period of time. 500k deaths for Islam is a solid estimate. Ottoman Conquests - Mehmed II leads the Ottomans on a merry path of conquest over Eastern Europe. 800k deaths for Islam. The Crusades - All of Christendom spends a few centuries banging it's head against a Holy Land-shaped wall. 1mil deaths for Christianity. So far, Christianity's crusading habit is definitely a big source of casualties, but those pesky Muslim militants have pushed Islam into the lead. The score is neck and neck at 1,950,000 deaths for Christianity and 2,120,000 deaths for Islam. But three wars that most people have never heard of completely blow this competition out of the water. French Wars of Religion - The French Protestants and Catholics spend 36 years massacring each other silly. 3mil deaths for Christianity. Thirty Years' War - Protestant and Catholic princes duke it out for control of the Holy Roman Empire (modern Germany). War is waged between mercenary companies that loot the countryside to support themselves. One third of Germany dies. 10mil deaths for Christianity. But in the year 1850, a new challenger blows them both out of the water. Taiping Rebellion - Hong Xiuquan was born into a poor family in southern China. In 1837, he fails the imperial civil service examinations-- his only hope of getting ahead in life-- and has a nervous breakdown. Long story short, he reads some pamphlets from Portuguese missionaries, gets some freaky visions, decide's he's Jesus's younger brother, rounds up some followers (known as the God Worshippers), and launches a rebellion against the Qing Dynasty that results in the deaths of over 20 million people. This is all not including the many executions of Christians in the Middle East or Terrorist attacks. Though one could argue would humans have not found another way to slaughter each other? I mean people would still slaughter each other through conquest. That wouldn’t change. But the many conquests in the name of religion would and there would be no holy wars.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 14, 2017 11:07:47 GMT
I wonder about the existence of a higher power. 1. Why is belief in a higher power almost universal? 2. I wonder if there has to be something unique in humans. When young male lions reach maturity, they leave the Pride and wander the savanna until they find a Pride led by aging, male lions. They get into a scuffle with the competing males, drive them off, kill whatever cubs remain in the Pride, and take over leadership and procreate with the remaining female lionesses. When that is observed, people it off as nature taking its course. If I were to kick in the door of an affluent, suburban house, drive off the father, murder his children and start a new family with the mother, why would I be apprehended, prosecuted, and punished in almost any society on Earth that has ever existed? Why do we have a moral compass? Even those who do not believe in a higher power would be appalled by my behavior. If there is no higher power to answer to, I might as well start staking out a family to take over. I mean it's a pretty obvious fact that morality is subjective and humans get to dictate what's right and wrong only because they are the most intelligent species. But our individual ideas of rights and wrongs can differ and whatever the general opinion on something is, it then becomes moral or immoral. Just like how almost everyone thought slavery was okay until recently, when most now agrees that its immoral. How could everyone have been so wrong for so many millenniums on slavery? The majority of the population thinks its okay to kill animals for a human meal. Maybe this will change one day. Or perhaps not. My point is that the concept of morality is a human invention, and it's undefined and subject to change over time. If it all happens naturalistically, what's the need for a God? Can't I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself. If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? Most morality is a product of whatever social/cultural biases that you grow up with and are taught to you as a child. If you grow up being taught that your tribe has gods and enemies, and that sacrificing your enemies to your gods is a good thing, then this will be part of your moral sense of right and wrong. Unfortunately, the moral sense can too easily override the ethical sense, which is why you see people doing some nasty things to each other in the name of "morality". The ancient Aztecs and the modern-day members of ISIS are two groups who could be described as moral by their own standards, yet horrifically unethical by human standards. It could be argued Morality is an illusion. When people became social, they figured out the best ways to increase their rate of survival as a group. Over time, this turned into "morals”.
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