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Post by Διαμονδ on Mar 29, 2018 22:34:47 GMT
What is Truth!? 2000 years ago, Pilate asked Jesus - "What is truth?"Many years passed and people continue to worry about this issue! What is Truth for you? Interesting is any view, not only religious! We will discuss!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 9:45:47 GMT
No, no, regardless of interpretations it can be understand. I'd say in some cases texts can even confuse us, that makes it more clearly. The Masoretic text was created by the Jews especially on an anti-Christian basis! Yes, you are right, there's no doubt it's been it; but the topic is around understanding 'the nature of appearance of G-d' in that times. I'd say that some 'strange' writings in OT seem to be used for distinguishing the G-d from any other G-d. I'd say that the authors of Torah insisted on demarking (So, you are right, saying that the main statement may be 'none except Yahwey') the way from the others way. Moreover, the subject is not under the G-d only, but the way of Israel. It wouldn't be smart to told people just to worship G-d and nothing more. Such things seem useless self-evidently. The shape or 'color' of scripture here and there was tied with traditions of writings. So, it was highly possible that the ancient authors wanted to say the messages by making focus not at 'color&shape' of G-d, but on schedule or calendar. You can compare it to other regions in that times oikumena which wanted almost the same; Egyptians were looking at even day-schedule (by the way they invented some mechanisms which were prototypes of the clock), because it was necessary for them to pray prayers at the right times.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 9:53:46 GMT
21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. Another mistranslation. King James gets this one right: "They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities:" Here is the mistranslated word: biblehub.com/hebrew/1892.htmThis is the word for idol: biblehub.com/hebrew/6459.htmI use idol and image interchangeably because of this. Shrug Exodus 20:4-6 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 9:56:02 GMT
Elizabeth (, fschmidt is right here, because you understand idol in material manner, but it is not necessary to be them. Look at the view on G-d itself in former and latter version of OT, I mean the view about G-d as the human-looking and more abstract one. Just logically, without deep into hard discussion at the point we can conclude that idols can be maintain in material form just of matter of comparing. No, not necessarily. An idol is anything that someone puts above God. Can be material, human, demon, etc. Romans 1 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.Sorry, Elizabeth. With all due respects, I think you're wrong in understanding of 'idols'. A. Yes, 100% idols can be anything. B. An 'A' implies 'An idol can be a G-d'. C. OT understand other gods as idols; D. Given 'B', 'C' implies 'There were other gods, except Yahweh'. P.S. The quotes showed us that G-d had been raged at them who hadn't worshiped at H-m, and also that someone still has been benefit to some creatures.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 10:00:28 GMT
No, not necessarily. An idol is anything that someone puts above God. Can be material, human, demon, etc. Romans 1 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.Sorry, Elizabeth. With all due respects, I think you're wrong in understanding of 'idols'. A. Yes, 100% idols can be anything. B. An 'A' implies 'An idol can be a G-d'. C. OT understand other gods as idols; D. Given 'B', 'C' implies 'There were other gods, except Yahweh'. P.S. The quotes showed us that G-d had been raged at them who hadn't worshiped at H-m, and also that someone still has been benefit to some creatures. What's your definition of idols? This is mine that I said can be anything that someone puts above God. This can be seen in the below verse saying "image of anything in heaven or earth or sea". So as I said can be human, demon, or material. Even angels which are in heaven or even sharks in the sea or any human or animal on earth is not allowed to be worshipped. Exodus 20:4-6 “ You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 10:08:00 GMT
Sorry, Elizabeth. With all due respects, I think you're wrong in understanding of 'idols'. A. Yes, 100% idols can be anything. B. An 'A' implies 'An idol can be a G-d'. C. OT understand other gods as idols; D. Given 'B', 'C' implies 'There were other gods, except Yahweh'. P.S. The quotes showed us that G-d had been raged at them who hadn't worshiped at H-m, and also that someone still has been benefit to some creatures. What's you definition of idols? This is mine that I saod can be anything that someone puts above God. This can be seen in the below verse saying "image of anything in heaven or earth or sea". So as I said can be human, demon, or material. Even angels which are in heaven or even sharks in the sea or any human or animal on earth is not allowed to be worshipped. Exodus 20:4-6 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands. The Bible says - do not worship that is is in the sky (it's the moon, the stars, the sun) Christ, the angels - this is not something. They are - WHO- The Bible allowed images of cherubs in the Tabernacle and at the temple ... You must know this!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 10:10:10 GMT
Sorry, Elizabeth. With all due respects, I think you're wrong in understanding of 'idols'. A. Yes, 100% idols can be anything. B. An 'A' implies 'An idol can be a G-d'. C. OT understand other gods as idols; D. Given 'B', 'C' implies 'There were other gods, except Yahweh'. P.S. The quotes showed us that G-d had been raged at them who hadn't worshiped at H-m, and also that someone still has been benefit to some creatures. What's your definition of idols? This is mine that I said can be anything that someone puts above God. This can be seen in the below verse saying "image of anything in heaven or earth or sea". So as I said can be human, demon, or material. Even angels which are in heaven or even sharks in the sea or any human or animal on earth is not allowed to be worshipped. Exodus 20:4-6 “ You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands. Just very simple. But first of all, I want you to read me that it is not necessary to term every notion in the Bible just by the Bible. I know, you can answer me that just the Bible is the one that can be the right 'tool'. I even can agree that, but I'm sure you can object that for reading any texts, including the Bible, you have to use some logic, haven't you? But, by interpreting the notion 'idol' just logically, I tried to do it as less logically as it was possible; I mean I used just simple logic, not superior versions, etc. (But it has to be said, that logic still leaves the same from the ancient times; even in India and China we can find just the same logic systems as later has been found in Greece.) So, the 'idol' to me is just 'not God' (not Yahweh).
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 10:14:34 GMT
What's you definition of idols? This is mine that I saod can be anything that someone puts above God. This can be seen in the below verse saying "image of anything in heaven or earth or sea". So as I said can be human, demon, or material. Even angels which are in heaven or even sharks in the sea or any human or animal on earth is not allowed to be worshipped. Exodus 20:4-6 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands. The Bible says - do not worship that is is in the sky (it's the moon, the stars, the sun) Christ, the angels - this is not something. They are - WHO- The Bible allowed images of cherubs in the Tabernacle and at the temple ... You must know this! Nope not even bowing to or worshipping angels. Just God. In the below verse you can see he bowed to the angel and the angel told him not tp do it again! Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” No worshipping angels! Only worship God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 10:16:17 GMT
What's your definition of idols? This is mine that I said can be anything that someone puts above God. This can be seen in the below verse saying "image of anything in heaven or earth or sea". So as I said can be human, demon, or material. Even angels which are in heaven or even sharks in the sea or any human or animal on earth is not allowed to be worshipped. Exodus 20:4-6 “ You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands. Just very simple. But first of all, I want you to read me that it is not necessary to term every notion in the Bible just by the Bible. I know, you can answer me that just the Bible is the one that can be the right 'tool'. I even can agree that, but I'm sure you can object that for reading any texts, including the Bible, you have to use some logic, haven't you? But, by interpreting the notion 'idol' just logically, I tried to do it as less logically as it was possible; I mean I used just simple logic, not superior versions, etc. (But it has to be said, that logic still leaves the same from the ancient times; even in India and China we can find just the same logic systems as later has been found in Greece.) So, the 'idol' to me is just 'not God' (not Yahweh). Yes, an idol is anything that's not God that is being worshipped. So we do agree?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 10:19:18 GMT
Just very simple. But first of all, I want you to read me that it is not necessary to term every notion in the Bible just by the Bible. I know, you can answer me that just the Bible is the one that can be the right 'tool'. I even can agree that, but I'm sure you can object that for reading any texts, including the Bible, you have to use some logic, haven't you? But, by interpreting the notion 'idol' just logically, I tried to do it as less logically as it was possible; I mean I used just simple logic, not superior versions, etc. (But it has to be said, that logic still leaves the same from the ancient times; even in India and China we can find just the same logic systems as later has been found in Greece.) So, the 'idol' to me is just 'not God' (not Yahweh). Yes, an idol is anything that's not God that is being worshipped. So we do agree? Super! Surely! Your definitions is really more better than mine.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 10:19:18 GMT
The Bible says - do not worship that is is in the sky (it's the moon, the stars, the sun) Christ, the angels - this is not something. They are - WHO- The Bible allowed images of cherubs in the Tabernacle and at the temple ... You must know this! Nope not even bowing to or worshipping angels. Just God. In the below verse you can see he bowed to the angel and the angel told him not tp do it again! Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” No worshipping angels! Only worship God. I'm not talking about worship .. and about the possibility of images in the temple! The Bible admits it .. does not allow only images of false religions as the religion of ancient Egypt!
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 10:24:00 GMT
Nope not even bowing to or worshipping angels. Just God. In the below verse you can see he bowed to the angel and the angel told him not tp do it again! Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” No worshipping angels! Only worship God. I'm not talking about worship .. and about the possibility of images in the temple! The Bible admits it .. does not allow only images of false religions as the religion of ancient Egypt! No you said we can't worship "that" but we can worship a "who" (Jesus and angels you said) "The Bible says - do not worship that is is in the sky (it's the moon, the stars, the sun) Christ, the angels - this is not something. They are - WHO-" But we can only worship God in the who that you said just not angels. I never said anything about pictures kind of images though. I meant actually worship of angels or anything other than God is idolatry.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 10:27:03 GMT
Ты слишком буквально меня читаешь! Я говорю что настоящие духовные существа не относятся к категории -что-..они из категории...-кто- значит для них нет запрета в Библии на возможность изображения! Поклонения конечно же Богу!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 10:32:46 GMT
Διαμονδ has said Elizabeth you know, if take procedures of worshiping closely, yes, we could say that the other gods were not allowed. But, in Orthodoxy there's no worshiping of images, but worshiping of God, making churches (any places...) with some attributes, which, in turn, have been taken as the memory of died martyrs. The Orthodox church believes that the most good places for liturgy are that which have been sacred by deeds of Christians of first times. So, it's not objected to worship everywhere; so, actually, in Orthodoxy shared the view it would be more accurate and respectful if we were worshiping in sacred places.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 10:33:02 GMT
Ты слишком буквально меня читаешь! Я говорю что настоящие духовные существа не относятся к категории -что-..они из категории...-кто- значит для них нет запрета в Библии на возможность изображения! Поклонения конечно же Богу! but we were talking about idols and you wrote that so was very unclear! So yes took you literally since the verse mentioned things in heaven not to be worshipped and you made lists like moon and stars of what it means by heaven and then said Jesus and angels are ok xD
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 10:38:21 GMT
Ты слишком буквально меня читаешь! Я говорю что настоящие духовные существа не относятся к категории -что-..они из категории...-кто- значит для них нет запрета в Библии на возможность изображения! Поклонения конечно же Богу! but we were talking about idols and you wrote that so was very unclear! So yes took you literally since the verse mentioned things in heaven not to be worshipped and you made lists like moon and stars of what it means by heaven and then said Jesus and angels are ok xD Probably you goodnight I think!
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