|
Post by Διαμονδ on Mar 29, 2018 22:34:47 GMT
What is Truth!? 2000 years ago, Pilate asked Jesus - "What is truth?"Many years passed and people continue to worry about this issue! What is Truth for you? Interesting is any view, not only religious! We will discuss!
|
|
|
Post by fschmidt on Apr 4, 2018 2:19:28 GMT
For me, absolute truth doesn't exist. Not even in Islam?? Absolute truth exists in Islam, but I am not Muslim. I follow the Old Testament where truth is relative.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 4:27:37 GMT
Absolute truth exists in Islam, but I am not Muslim. I follow the Old Testament where truth is relative. I apologize for question, but are there any quotes to prove that 'truth is relatively' in the Torah? Or this is more later adding? (I mean from more later texts.) Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by fschmidt on Apr 4, 2018 4:53:13 GMT
I apologize for question, but are there any quotes to prove that 'truth is relatively' in the Torah? Or this is more later adding? (I mean from more later texts.) The Old Testament is not a philosophy book, so you won't find any discussion on the nature of truth. One thing to notice is that the Old Testament never denies the existence of other gods. It just says that Yehovah is the best god for the Israelites. But the nature of truth itself does come out in the Hebrew. The Hebrew word for "true" is "emet" and the usage of this word shows that it is used in ways that make no sense in a Western (absolute truth) context. This is discussed in detail in this book: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0096BCVPG/
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 5:50:14 GMT
I apologize for question, but are there any quotes to prove that 'truth is relatively' in the Torah? Or this is more later adding? (I mean from more later texts.) The Old Testament is not a philosophy book, so you won't find any discussion on the nature of truth. One thing to notice is that the Old Testament never denies the existence of other gods. It just says that Yehovah is the best god for the Israelites. But the nature of truth itself does come out in the Hebrew. The Hebrew word for "true" is "emet" and the usage of this word shows that it is used in ways that make no sense in a Western (absolute truth) context. This is discussed in detail in this book: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0096BCVPG/How? OT tells me there's only 1 God too. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35 "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39 "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39 "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22 "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32 "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60 "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20 "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31 "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10 "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6 "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8 "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5 "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14 "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21 "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
|
|
|
Post by fschmidt on Apr 4, 2018 6:54:57 GMT
How? OT tells me there's only 1 God too. "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35 "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39 I will just take the first 2 of your examples. All of these are translation problems. Here is the Hebrew of these 2: biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/4-35.htmbiblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/4-39.htm4:35 ends with "ain od milvado" and 4:39 ends with "ain od". "ain" means "there isn't". The word "od" means again or added. The word "milvado" means basically "with his lone self". The real point of all these quotes is that Yahweh is a stand-alone god, not to be mixed with other gods. There are no other gods next to Yahweh. You have to choose, either worship Yahweh or worship other gods, but not both.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 7:04:25 GMT
I will just take the first 2 of your examples. All of these are translation problems. Here is the Hebrew of these 2: biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/4-35.htmbiblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/4-39.htm4:35 ends with "ain od milvado" and 4:39 ends with "ain od". "ain" means "there isn't". The word "od" means again or added. The word "milvado" means basically "with his lone self". The real point of all these quotes is that Yahweh is a stand-alone god, not to be mixed with other gods. There are no other gods next to Yahweh. You have to choose, either worship Yahweh or worship other gods, but not both. Yes, ok. But those other gods are just idols or man made and have no godly powers to them. Like in this story Yahweh just destroys the Dagon statue/idol/god these people had. 1 Samuel 5 5 Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. 2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon. 3 And when the people of Ashdod arose early in the morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again. 4 And when they arose early the next morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the Lord. The head of Dagon and both the palms of its hands were broken off on the threshold; only Dagon’s torso was left of it. 5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon nor any who come into Dagon’s house tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod to this day.6 But the hand of the Lord was heavy on the people of Ashdod, and He ravaged them and struck them with tumors, both Ashdod and its territory. 7 And when the men of Ashdod saw how it was, they said, “The ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us, for His hand is harsh toward us and Dagon our god.” 8 Therefore they sent and gathered to themselves all the lords of the Philistines, and said, “What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel?” And they answered, “Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried away to Gath.” So they carried the ark of the God of Israel away. 9 So it was, after they had carried it away, that the hand of the Lord was against the city with a very great destruction; and He struck the men of the city, both small and great, and tumors broke out on them. 10 Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. So it was, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, “They have brought the ark of the God of Israel to us, to kill us and our people!” 11 So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, “Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go back to its own place, so that it does not kill us and our people.” For there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there. 12 And the men who did not die were stricken with the tumors, and the cry of the city went up to heaven.
|
|
|
Post by fschmidt on Apr 4, 2018 8:07:17 GMT
But those other gods are just idols or man made and have no godly powers to them. Like in this story Yahweh just destroys the Dagon statue/idol/god these people had. No. A god is not the same thing as an idol. A god may or may not be an idol. And an idol may or may not be a god. This is why the second commandment prohibits worshipping other gods, while the third commandment prohibits the making of idols. Because they are different things. Saying that truth is relative is not at all the same thing as saying that truth is subjective. The Old Testament view is that truth is relative but that truth is not subjective. There are objective real-world results that can be measured. Zeus was a god that worked just fine for the Ancient Greeks. Zeus was not an idol. Idols never worked for any culture. Idols are objectively bad based on history. When a culture starts worshipping its own creations, it is doomed. And whether that object of worship is considered a god is irrelevant. Our modern culture worships its own techno-crap. The iPhone is an idol of modern culture. In the story you mentioned, the people violated both the second and third commandments. Dagon was both a god and an idol. So the people both but another god next to an object of God, and they worshipped an idol. So naturally they were severely punished.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 8:30:23 GMT
But those other gods are just idols or man made and have no godly powers to them. Like in this story Yahweh just destroys the Dagon statue/idol/god these people had. No. A god is not the same thing as an idol. A god may or may not be an idol. And an idol may or may not be a god. This is why the second commandment prohibits worshipping other gods, while the third commandment prohibits the making of idols. Because they are different things. Saying that truth is relative is not at all the same thing as saying that truth is subjective. The Old Testament view is that truth is relative but that truth is not subjective. There are objective real-world results that can be measured. Zeus was a god that worked just fine for the Ancient Greeks. Zeus was not an idol. Idols never worked for any culture. Idols are objectively bad based on history. When a culture starts worshipping its own creations, it is doomed. And whether that object of worship is considered a god is irrelevant. Our modern culture worships its own techno-crap. The iPhone is an idol of modern culture. In the story you mentioned, the people violated both the second and third commandments. Dagon was both a god and an idol. So the people both but another god next to an object of God, and they worshipped an idol. So naturally they were severely punished. Yahweh Himself calls gods as idols though. Deuteronomy 32 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger. 17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivalsThat your fathers did not fear. 18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, And have forgotten the God who fathered you. 19 “And when the Lord saw it, He spurned them, Because of the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20 And He said: ‘I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith. 21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols.
|
|
|
Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 8:36:38 GMT
The essence of the Old Testament is brief - Yahweh-God! All other idols!-
|
|
|
Post by fschmidt on Apr 4, 2018 9:11:35 GMT
21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. Another mistranslation. King James gets this one right: "They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities:" Here is the mistranslated word: biblehub.com/hebrew/1892.htmThis is the word for idol: biblehub.com/hebrew/6459.htm
|
|
|
Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 9:19:49 GMT
fschmidt Do you use the Masoretic text or the Septuagint? Masoretic text is known, substitution! In the book of Isaiah there is no prophecy about the Virgin. Masoretic refers to the "young woman". This completely does not correspond to the Gospel!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 9:29:45 GMT
Elizabeth ( , fschmidt is right here, because you understand idol in material manner, but it is not necessary to be them. Look at the view on G-d itself in former and latter version of OT, I mean the view about G-d as the human-looking and more abstract one. Just logically, without deep into hard discussion at the point we can conclude that idols can be maintain in material form just of matter of comparing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 9:31:26 GMT
fschmidt Do you use the Masoretic text or the Septuagint? Masoretic text is known, substitution! In the book of Isaiah there is no prophecy about the Virgin. Masoretic refers to the "young woman". This completely does not correspond to the Gospel! No, no, regardless of interpretations it can be understand. I'd say in some cases texts can even confuse us, that makes it more clearly.
|
|
|
Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 4, 2018 9:32:58 GMT
fschmidt Do you use the Masoretic text or the Septuagint? Masoretic text is known, substitution! In the book of Isaiah there is no prophecy about the Virgin. Masoretic refers to the "young woman". This completely does not correspond to the Gospel! No, no, regardless of interpretations it can be understand. I'd say in some cases texts can even confuse us, that makes it more clearly. The Masoretic text was created by the Jews especially on an anti-Christian basis!
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2018 9:44:47 GMT
Elizabeth (, fschmidt is right here, because you understand idol in material manner, but it is not necessary to be them. Look at the view on G-d itself in former and latter version of OT, I mean the view about G-d as the human-looking and more abstract one. Just logically, without deep into hard discussion at the point we can conclude that idols can be maintain in material form just of matter of comparing. No, not necessarily. An idol is anything that someone puts above God. Can be material, human, demon, etc. Romans 1 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
|
|