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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 23, 2018 19:56:11 GMT
Just as cute pair unknown and Eodnhoj7 share a thread to discuss philosophy together, so Dk and I plan to share our own discussion too. Please refrain from comments here. You can make your own threads based off stuff here for your own separate discussions.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 15, 2019 2:54:40 GMT
I did mess up on the capitals and stuff. But I believe I wrote that before bed so wasn't fully awake in my defense . And yes we are the priesthood and God is the High Priest from now on. Which is not how the OT covenant works but that covenant is expired so we don't need to care about it anymore. It'll just be a covenant between you and no one else if you follow it still. Which is strange because it takes at least 2 in a covenant and never 1. But some people can have a covenant with nothing apparently . Some people just have a big imagination...just like one who is born one gender and thinks he's another gender. Is there a subject that you have in mind to go to next? it's okay How about the subject of the church, what it is and what it isn't, who the foundation is and who the foundation isn't? Or do you have another subject in mind? Ok Will you start it?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 16, 2019 3:41:41 GMT
it's okay How about the subject of the church, what it is and what it isn't, who the foundation is and who the foundation isn't? Or do you have another subject in mind? Ok Will you start it? Yes I will start
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 18, 2019 6:01:59 GMT
Okay, so the church according to the Bible is all those who are of the seed of Abraham, that is, the spiritual seed and not the physical seed. We know this because in Paul's letter to the church in Galatia, Paul said, Galatians 3:27-29 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And here 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 Paul says, 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I could quote the beginning of the rest of Paul's letters to the churches and they would all say around the same, that being the church is those who are in Christ. We know that the church is not of the physical seed of Abraham because Christ tells the Pharisees that he knows they are of the physical seed of Abraham here, John 8:33-37 33 They(the Pharisees) answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
This tells us that the church, those who are in Christ, the saints, are not of a physical seed, that is not a genetic/descendant inheritance, but that the church is a spiritual inheritance, those of the same faith of Abraham, his spiritual seed.
So this means any church, or congregation/assembly of people, that claims to be in Christ must of have Christ as their head according to these verses, Colossians 1:17-19 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
A church that does not have Christ as their head are not in Christ which would include many many churches, the Catholic Church being one of them. Speaking of, many Catholics, and even Orthodox Christians, will point to this passage to say that Peter is the rock which the church was built upon, Matthew 16:17-19 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This issue with their interpretation of the text is that Jesus does not say directly that Peter will be the rock upon which the church will be built, He says "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". This alone should be enough to show them, but they point to verse 19 to support their argument. However, knowing from the book of Acts that Peter established the church in Jerusalem, but it was not founded on him and he even says so himself in 1 Peter 2, 1 Peter 2:1-8 1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Peter is saying in this passage that we are all stones, just like Peter, and that Jesus is the "rock of offense" and the "head of the corner". This is confirmed by Peter in Acts 4, Acts 4:8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
And confirmed by Paul here, 1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
So there shouldn't even be a question about who or what the rock is in Matthew 16. In fact the Bible even tells us about these people who do, Romans 16:17-18 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
And on top of all this, though we really don't need to based on the consistency within scripture, we can go to the Greek in Matthew 16:18; the Greek word for Peter is Petro(Πέτρος) which is masculine as Peter is a man. The meaning of Peter's name is rock or stone, and this is why the Catholics and Orthodox point to Peter as their foundation. However, they ignore the fact that the word for "rock" in the Greek used in Matthew 16:18 is petra(πέτρᾳ) which is feminine. So, we know that Jesus is not talking about Peter when He says "rock" because a distinction is made between the two(which we even see in the plain reading of the text). Now, continuing, if we go to the word "church" in Matthew 16:17, which is ekklēsian(ἐκκλησίαν) in Greek, it is also in feminine form.
And for support of this, we look at the rest of the Bible, because the Bible defines itself, when we look at where the church is mentioned, we see this, Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
So, we can conclude based on the plain reading of the text in English and in Greek, that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and not Peter.
Agree? Disagree? Have anything to add?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 12, 2019 5:48:25 GMT
Okay, so the church according to the Bible is all those who are of the seed of Abraham, that is, the spiritual seed and not the physical seed. We know this because in Paul's letter to the church in Galatia, Paul said, Galatians 3:27-29 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. And here 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 Paul says, 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I could quote the beginning of the rest of Paul's letters to the churches and they would all say around the same, that being the church is those who are in Christ. We know that the church is not of the physical seed of Abraham because Christ tells the Pharisees that he knows they are of the physical seed of Abraham here, John 8:33-37 33 They(the Pharisees) answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. This tells us that the church, those who are in Christ, the saints, are not of a physical seed, that is not a genetic/descendant inheritance, but that the church is a spiritual inheritance, those of the same faith of Abraham, his spiritual seed. So this means any church, or congregation/assembly of people, that claims to be in Christ must of have Christ as their head according to these verses, Colossians 1:17-19 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. A church that does not have Christ as their head are not in Christ which would include many many churches, the Catholic Church being one of them. Speaking of, many Catholics, and even Orthodox Christians, will point to this passage to say that Peter is the rock which the church was built upon, Matthew 16:17-19 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. This issue with their interpretation of the text is that Jesus does not say directly that Peter will be the rock upon which the church will be built, He says "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". This alone should be enough to show them, but they point to verse 19 to support their argument. However, knowing from the book of Acts that Peter established the church in Jerusalem, but it was not founded on him and he even says so himself in 1 Peter 2, 1 Peter 2:1-8 1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Peter is saying in this passage that we are all stones, just like Peter, and that Jesus is the "rock of offense" and the "head of the corner". This is confirmed by Peter in Acts 4, Acts 4:8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And confirmed by Paul here, 1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. So there shouldn't even be a question about who or what the rock is in Matthew 16. In fact the Bible even tells us about these people who do, Romans 16:17-18 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. And on top of all this, though we really don't need to based on the consistency within scripture, we can go to the Greek in Matthew 16:18; the Greek word for Peter is Petro(Πέτρος) which is masculine as Peter is a man. The meaning of Peter's name is rock or stone, and this is why the Catholics and Orthodox point to Peter as their foundation. However, they ignore the fact that the word for "rock" in the Greek used in Matthew 16:18 is petra(πέτρᾳ) which is feminine. So, we know that Jesus is not talking about Peter when He says "rock" because a distinction is made between the two(which we even see in the plain reading of the text). Now, continuing, if we go to the word "church" in Matthew 16:17, which is ekklēsian(ἐκκλησίαν) in Greek, it is also in feminine form. And for support of this, we look at the rest of the Bible, because the Bible defines itself, when we look at where the church is mentioned, we see this, Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. So, we can conclude based on the plain reading of the text in English and in Greek, that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and not Peter. Agree? Disagree? Have anything to add? I agree. Peter was just always a stumbling problem who never was firm in Christ. Thou are Peter and that's it, you're nothing else but simply Peter. But a Christian is a member of a the church or body of Christ. They're not merely just a person and they're a child of God. Peter was still the same as he always was and that is no good. If anything God was gently putting him down for his failure to open his eyes. Thomas had a problem too but he became firm later on and admitted that Jesus rose from the dead and was God after all. He was no longer in doubt. He became firm in God afterwards but it took him to wait until after the resurrection! Just sad. He walked with Jesus and everything but wasn't a firm follower until He resurrected. All God's children or sheep follow only the voice of Christ. Never ever another voice. Because God is the rock and the only foundation just like He said He was. Matthew 7:24-26 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: These people were wise because they built everything on Christ and nothing separated them from their firm foundation. They were forever safe with Jesus. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:39 The rest were foolish and couldn't stand. They glorified man or birds or other things. Man are corruptible and cannot be glorified. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans:1:21 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans:1:22 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans:1:23 We follow only the voice of Christ. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. John:12:26 But this problem existed for a long time. In the old Testament people followed the wrong rock too. For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deuteronomy:32:31 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Deuteronomy:32:37 Plus there is only one rock. For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2 Samuel:22:32 And Peter followed after others as did Thomas because they were believing the world not God fully. When Peter was accused being one of Christ's followers he denied it. He didn't lie though because he wasn't His follower. A real follower would never deny following Christ. Peter wasn't a follower but a denier. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. Matthew:26:70 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. Matthew:26:72 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. Matthew:26:74 And we all know that those who deny Him..He will also deny them... If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2 Timothy:2:12 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus:1:16 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew:10:33 Peter denied God so God would deny him then too. If Peter didn't permantely change this problem in his life then he is permanently separated from God in eternity. Peter was more worried about being confirmed to the world than to God when he denied God. He was ashamed or embarassed to tell them he was His follower. He had 3 chances simultaneously. His answers only got worse and worse. A real follower/Christian wouldn't be ashamed like Peter was. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke:9:26 Thomas had a similar yet different issue. He was devout in following Christ and wanted to know how to do it. But only in the beggining... Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? John:14:5 Jesus reminded him that He is the rock and to just follow Him into heaven. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John:14:6 The problem happened when Jesus died. This caused Thomas to doubt everything. God dying doesn't make sense...right? But Thomas failed to see the bigger picture and that God is alive after all. Jesus knew that Thomas lost faith and wanted to help restore it by showing him He is not dead and all is true. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John:20:27 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. John:20:28 Thomas wasn't fully firm in his faith and needed more help. But those who don't need the extra help that he got are blessed because they take God's word the first time and believe it always. It's rude not to trust God and is offensive. I would be upset if someone distrusted me too. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John:20:29 So just follow Christ from the start because He is the rock. Don't sway or be lukewarm in following Him. And don't ever be ashamed of Him or deny Him before others. It'll be a price to pay for eternity. We must be glorious for Him only to be accepted as His follower/church/child/etc. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians:5:27 Agree? Disagree? Thoughts? Anything to add?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 21, 2019 1:35:42 GMT
Okay, so the church according to the Bible is all those who are of the seed of Abraham, that is, the spiritual seed and not the physical seed. We know this because in Paul's letter to the church in Galatia, Paul said, Galatians 3:27-29 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. And here 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 Paul says, 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I could quote the beginning of the rest of Paul's letters to the churches and they would all say around the same, that being the church is those who are in Christ. We know that the church is not of the physical seed of Abraham because Christ tells the Pharisees that he knows they are of the physical seed of Abraham here, John 8:33-37 33 They(the Pharisees) answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. This tells us that the church, those who are in Christ, the saints, are not of a physical seed, that is not a genetic/descendant inheritance, but that the church is a spiritual inheritance, those of the same faith of Abraham, his spiritual seed. So this means any church, or congregation/assembly of people, that claims to be in Christ must of have Christ as their head according to these verses, Colossians 1:17-19 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. A church that does not have Christ as their head are not in Christ which would include many many churches, the Catholic Church being one of them. Speaking of, many Catholics, and even Orthodox Christians, will point to this passage to say that Peter is the rock which the church was built upon, Matthew 16:17-19 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. This issue with their interpretation of the text is that Jesus does not say directly that Peter will be the rock upon which the church will be built, He says "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". This alone should be enough to show them, but they point to verse 19 to support their argument. However, knowing from the book of Acts that Peter established the church in Jerusalem, but it was not founded on him and he even says so himself in 1 Peter 2, 1 Peter 2:1-8 1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Peter is saying in this passage that we are all stones, just like Peter, and that Jesus is the "rock of offense" and the "head of the corner". This is confirmed by Peter in Acts 4, Acts 4:8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And confirmed by Paul here, 1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. So there shouldn't even be a question about who or what the rock is in Matthew 16. In fact the Bible even tells us about these people who do, Romans 16:17-18 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. And on top of all this, though we really don't need to based on the consistency within scripture, we can go to the Greek in Matthew 16:18; the Greek word for Peter is Petro(Πέτρος) which is masculine as Peter is a man. The meaning of Peter's name is rock or stone, and this is why the Catholics and Orthodox point to Peter as their foundation. However, they ignore the fact that the word for "rock" in the Greek used in Matthew 16:18 is petra(πέτρᾳ) which is feminine. So, we know that Jesus is not talking about Peter when He says "rock" because a distinction is made between the two(which we even see in the plain reading of the text). Now, continuing, if we go to the word "church" in Matthew 16:17, which is ekklēsian(ἐκκλησίαν) in Greek, it is also in feminine form. And for support of this, we look at the rest of the Bible, because the Bible defines itself, when we look at where the church is mentioned, we see this, Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. So, we can conclude based on the plain reading of the text in English and in Greek, that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built, and not Peter. Agree? Disagree? Have anything to add? I agree. Peter was just always a stumbling problem who never was firm in Christ. Thou are Peter and that's it, you're nothing else but simply Peter. But a Christian is a member of a the church or body of Christ. They're not merely just a person and they're a child of God. Peter was still the same as he always was and that is no good. If anything God was gently putting him down for his failure to open his eyes. Thomas had a problem too but he became firm later on and admitted that Jesus rose from the dead and was God after all. He was no longer in doubt. He became firm in God afterwards but it took him to wait until after the resurrection! Just sad. He walked with Jesus and everything but wasn't a firm follower until He resurrected. All God's children or sheep follow only the voice of Christ. Never ever another voice. Because God is the rock and the only foundation just like He said He was. Matthew 7:24-26 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: These people were wise because they built everything on Christ and nothing separated them from their firm foundation. They were forever safe with Jesus. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:39 The rest were foolish and couldn't stand. They glorified man or birds or other things. Man are corruptible and cannot be glorified. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans:1:21 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans:1:22 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans:1:23 We follow only the voice of Christ. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. John:12:26 But this problem existed for a long time. In the old Testament people followed the wrong rock too. For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deuteronomy:32:31 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Deuteronomy:32:37 Plus there is only one rock. For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2 Samuel:22:32 And Peter followed after others as did Thomas because they were believing the world not God fully. When Peter was accused being one of Christ's followers he denied it. He didn't lie though because he wasn't His follower. A real follower would never deny following Christ. Peter wasn't a follower but a denier. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. Matthew:26:70 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. Matthew:26:72 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. Matthew:26:74 And we all know that those who deny Him..He will also deny them... If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2 Timothy:2:12 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus:1:16 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew:10:33 Peter denied God so God would deny him then too. If Peter didn't permantely change this problem in his life then he is permanently separated from God in eternity. Peter was more worried about being confirmed to the world than to God when he denied God. He was ashamed or embarassed to tell them he was His follower. He had 3 chances simultaneously. His answers only got worse and worse. A real follower/Christian wouldn't be ashamed like Peter was. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke:9:26 Thomas had a similar yet different issue. He was devout in following Christ and wanted to know how to do it. But only in the beggining... Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? John:14:5 Jesus reminded him that He is the rock and to just follow Him into heaven. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John:14:6 The problem happened when Jesus died. This caused Thomas to doubt everything. God dying doesn't make sense...right? But Thomas failed to see the bigger picture and that God is alive after all. Jesus knew that Thomas lost faith and wanted to help restore it by showing him He is not dead and all is true. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John:20:27 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. John:20:28 Thomas wasn't fully firm in his faith and needed more help. But those who don't need the extra help that he got are blessed because they take God's word the first time and believe it always. It's rude not to trust God and is offensive. I would be upset if someone distrusted me too. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John:20:29 So just follow Christ from the start because He is the rock. Don't sway or be lukewarm in following Him. And don't ever be ashamed of Him or deny Him before others. It'll be a price to pay for eternity. We must be glorious for Him only to be accepted as His follower/church/child/etc. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians:5:27 Agree? Disagree? Thoughts? Anything to add? Yes I agree. I don’t have anything further to add, except that all throughout the Bible we are warned about following men and their traditions; it is a constant theme in the Old Testament, people taking up things of men over God, and we are shown how God lets them do what they want and then He punishes them. Some repent but many don’t. Even after we are given these examples people still put their faith and trust in men, so much so that they don’t even read the very thing that establishes their religion in the first place, the Bible. Did you have anything further to add? Or shall we continue to another subject? We could talk about the many churches out there today that don’t put their faith/foundation on Christ, like the Mormons and Joseph Smith, the SDA’s and Ellen G. White, etc What do you think?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 21, 2019 1:53:49 GMT
I agree. Peter was just always a stumbling problem who never was firm in Christ. Thou are Peter and that's it, you're nothing else but simply Peter. But a Christian is a member of a the church or body of Christ. They're not merely just a person and they're a child of God. Peter was still the same as he always was and that is no good. If anything God was gently putting him down for his failure to open his eyes. Thomas had a problem too but he became firm later on and admitted that Jesus rose from the dead and was God after all. He was no longer in doubt. He became firm in God afterwards but it took him to wait until after the resurrection! Just sad. He walked with Jesus and everything but wasn't a firm follower until He resurrected. All God's children or sheep follow only the voice of Christ. Never ever another voice. Because God is the rock and the only foundation just like He said He was. Matthew 7:24-26 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: These people were wise because they built everything on Christ and nothing separated them from their firm foundation. They were forever safe with Jesus. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:39 The rest were foolish and couldn't stand. They glorified man or birds or other things. Man are corruptible and cannot be glorified. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans:1:21 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans:1:22 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans:1:23 We follow only the voice of Christ. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. John:12:26 But this problem existed for a long time. In the old Testament people followed the wrong rock too. For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deuteronomy:32:31 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Deuteronomy:32:37 Plus there is only one rock. For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2 Samuel:22:32 And Peter followed after others as did Thomas because they were believing the world not God fully. When Peter was accused being one of Christ's followers he denied it. He didn't lie though because he wasn't His follower. A real follower would never deny following Christ. Peter wasn't a follower but a denier. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. Matthew:26:70 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. Matthew:26:72 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. Matthew:26:74 And we all know that those who deny Him..He will also deny them... If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2 Timothy:2:12 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus:1:16 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew:10:33 Peter denied God so God would deny him then too. If Peter didn't permantely change this problem in his life then he is permanently separated from God in eternity. Peter was more worried about being confirmed to the world than to God when he denied God. He was ashamed or embarassed to tell them he was His follower. He had 3 chances simultaneously. His answers only got worse and worse. A real follower/Christian wouldn't be ashamed like Peter was. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke:9:26 Thomas had a similar yet different issue. He was devout in following Christ and wanted to know how to do it. But only in the beggining... Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? John:14:5 Jesus reminded him that He is the rock and to just follow Him into heaven. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John:14:6 The problem happened when Jesus died. This caused Thomas to doubt everything. God dying doesn't make sense...right? But Thomas failed to see the bigger picture and that God is alive after all. Jesus knew that Thomas lost faith and wanted to help restore it by showing him He is not dead and all is true. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John:20:27 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. John:20:28 Thomas wasn't fully firm in his faith and needed more help. But those who don't need the extra help that he got are blessed because they take God's word the first time and believe it always. It's rude not to trust God and is offensive. I would be upset if someone distrusted me too. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John:20:29 So just follow Christ from the start because He is the rock. Don't sway or be lukewarm in following Him. And don't ever be ashamed of Him or deny Him before others. It'll be a price to pay for eternity. We must be glorious for Him only to be accepted as His follower/church/child/etc. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians:5:27 Agree? Disagree? Thoughts? Anything to add? Yes I agree. I don’t have anything further to add, except that all throughout the Bible we are warned about following men and their traditions; it is a constant theme in the Old Testament, people taking up things of men over God, and we are shown how God lets them do what they want and then He punishes them. Some repent but many don’t. Even after we are given these examples people still put their faith and trust in men, so much so that they don’t even read the very thing that establishes their religion in the first place, the Bible. Did you have anything further to add? Or shall we continue to another subject? We could talk about the many churches out there today that don’t put their faith/foundation on Christ, like the Mormons and Joseph Smith, the SDA’s and Ellen G. White, etc What do you think? Sure we can go to that topic. Would you like to go first? You know more about it than me.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Sept 17, 2019 3:02:37 GMT
Yes I agree. I don’t have anything further to add, except that all throughout the Bible we are warned about following men and their traditions; it is a constant theme in the Old Testament, people taking up things of men over God, and we are shown how God lets them do what they want and then He punishes them. Some repent but many don’t. Even after we are given these examples people still put their faith and trust in men, so much so that they don’t even read the very thing that establishes their religion in the first place, the Bible. Did you have anything further to add? Or shall we continue to another subject? We could talk about the many churches out there today that don’t put their faith/foundation on Christ, like the Mormons and Joseph Smith, the SDA’s and Ellen G. White, etc What do you think? Sure we can go to that topic. Would you like to go first? You know more about it than me. Okay, this may take a while, but let's start with the Mormons; the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult. Their prophet is Joseph Smith, who is self-proclaimed and made many false prophecies in turn deceiving many. He interpreted some ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics as containing records of Abraham and Joseph. Coincidentally(or not), many of his writings perished in the Great Chicago Fire in 1871, but unfortunately not all of them were destroyed. The Mormons believe in some very strange doctrines that are not found in the Bible. Here is a list of some of the strange things, as there are many that we can discuss, that they believe with quotations and citations from many of their books: -Mormons believe there are many gods, and not only that, but that Adam had a seat in something called "the council of the gods", "Our knowledge about Adam, and the exalted station held by him in the eternal providences of the Almighty... He sat in the council of the gods in the planning of the creation of this earth, and then, under Christ, participated in the creative enterprise." -Mormon Doctrine pg. 16 What council of the gods? Where does this doctrine come from? The Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham 3:22-26. -Mormons believe the righteous will be "translated" into ministering angels and sent to other planets to spread the gospel, "Translated Beings - Many righteous persons in the early days of the earth's history were translated. Enoch and the whole city of Zion were among these. These translated personages became "ministering angels unto many planets." Many of the angels who ministered to righteous men anciently, without question, were translated beings." -Mormon Doctrine pg. 34 Men changed into angels? And sent to other planets? Where does this doctrine come from? None other than Joseph Smith himself in his book "The Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" pg. 170. -Mormons believe that God was once a man, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" -The Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 345 -Mormons believe Satan offered to go to earth as the Son of God, to be the Redeemer, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son. I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor, Satan continued." -The Book of Mormon, Moses 4 :1-4 and Mormon Doctrine pg. 179 Of course, this is not found anywhere in the Bible, but the Mormons believe The Book of Mormon clarify the Bible, when it does no such thing. -Mormons believe their doctrine clarifies the Bible "LATTER-DAY SCRIPTURE CLARIFIES BIBLE. There is not one principle pertaining to the salvation of men that is so clearly stated in the Bible, as it has come down to us, that men do not stumble over — not one thing. There is not one principle they can be united on that has been so clearly stated that they do not find their interpretations of it conflicting. Do you want to know about the resurrection of the dead? Who is going to be saved in the celestial kingdom of God? Then read your Book of Mormon. Read your Doctrine and Covenants. The 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, known as the Vision, is the clearest, most concise statement regarding salvation that I know anything about, and I doubt if the Lord ever gave to any people, at any time upon the face of the earth, anything clearer than this revelation." -Doctrines of Salvation Volume 1-3 by Joseph Smith pg. 171 We can quite obviously see that this is not true, as the plain reading of Bible scripture contradicts many of their doctrines. Sources: scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdfarchive.org/stream/Doctrines-of-Salvation-volume-1-2-3-joseph-fielding-smith/JFSDoctrinesofSalvationvFULL_djvu.txtmormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/6b/1958-Mormon_Doctrine-Bruce_R_McConkie.pdfarchive.org/details/articlesfaithas00talmgoog/page/n54I wanted to do this this way in order to show that this is indeed their doctrine and that none of it is being said dishonestly or misinterpreted in any way, and, also, in doing this this way I found a lot more doctrines of there's that I did not know of. Is there anything you would like to add? There are still a lot more of their doctrines we can go over, but I wanted to give you a chance to say something about these here that I've shared so far so that you could share some scripture that debunks their beliefs.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 18, 2020 5:05:58 GMT
Would you like to change the subject?
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 23, 2020 6:23:32 GMT
I only thought of one to mention so if you don't have more we can change to another topic. So, the cult leader Jim Jones. He was one crazy and evil dude. He studied tons of Hitler, Stalin, and other similar guys and learned their manipulation techniques. He then basically made a cult about him not about Christ. He was also bisexual...gross. So there were just a bunch of stuff wrong with the guy and he portrayed nothing that was Christ-like. He wanted to be the leader or "god" and be worshipped basically. And people fell for it. Then he murderered them all by poison. Of course, he didn't drink it himself but still died by suicide later. This was a false prophet who had a fascination with death...not with life. So, he wanted no part of God since God isn't among the dead but the living. That's all I guess
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 27, 2020 4:15:03 GMT
I only thought of one to mention so if you don't have more we can change to another topic. So, the cult leader Jim Jones. He was one crazy and evil dude. He studied tons of Hitler, Stalin, and other similar guys and learned their manipulation techniques. He then basically made a cult about him not about Christ. He was also bisexual...gross. So there were just a bunch of stuff wrong with the guy and he portrayed nothing that was Christ-like. He wanted to be the leader or "god" and be worshipped basically. And people fell for it. Then he murderered them all by poison. Of course, he didn't drink it himself but still died by suicide later. This was a false prophet who had a fascination with death...not with life. So, he wanted no part of God since God isn't among the dead but the living. That's all I guess I have plenty more, but its okay we can change the topic. I dont want to monologue. I've heard of Jim Jones and what he did, it was really very evil and terrible. It really shows how gullible people are to so blindly follow someone all the way until their death. How about we change the subject to.. who are the Jews in the Bible and today. Reason for suggesting this topic is because there are many, many Christians today who believe the Jews in Israel are the same Jews from the OT and that they are God's chosen people. They believe we need to support the country Israel at all costs as a result. Would you like to start or shall I?
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 27, 2020 5:05:42 GMT
I only thought of one to mention so if you don't have more we can change to another topic. So, the cult leader Jim Jones. He was one crazy and evil dude. He studied tons of Hitler, Stalin, and other similar guys and learned their manipulation techniques. He then basically made a cult about him not about Christ. He was also bisexual...gross. So there were just a bunch of stuff wrong with the guy and he portrayed nothing that was Christ-like. He wanted to be the leader or "god" and be worshipped basically. And people fell for it. Then he murderered them all by poison. Of course, he didn't drink it himself but still died by suicide later. This was a false prophet who had a fascination with death...not with life. So, he wanted no part of God since God isn't among the dead but the living. That's all I guess I have plenty more, but its okay we can change the topic. I dont want to monologue. I've heard of Jim Jones and what he did, it was really very evil and terrible. It really shows how gullible people are to so blindly follow someone all the way until their death. How about we change the subject to.. who are the Jews in the Bible and today. Reason for suggesting this topic is because there are many, many Christians today who believe the Jews in Israel are the same Jews from the OT and that they are God's chosen people. They believe we need to support the country Israel at all costs as a result. Would you like to start or shall I? You can either do the monologue or begin with the Jews.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 6, 2020 5:25:45 GMT
I have plenty more, but its okay we can change the topic. I dont want to monologue. I've heard of Jim Jones and what he did, it was really very evil and terrible. It really shows how gullible people are to so blindly follow someone all the way until their death. How about we change the subject to.. who are the Jews in the Bible and today. Reason for suggesting this topic is because there are many, many Christians today who believe the Jews in Israel are the same Jews from the OT and that they are God's chosen people. They believe we need to support the country Israel at all costs as a result. Would you like to start or shall I? You can either do the monologue or begin with the Jews. Okay. There are many people today who believe that the state of Israel and the Jews who live there are God's chosen people. However, that is not true. Jews, as in of Judaism, do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh nor the Son of God. Anyone who denies that Jesus is the God in the flesh or the Son of God is antichrist according to the Bible, 1 John 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 4:3 KJV And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2 John 1:7 KJV For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Moreover, the Bible also tells us who is God's chosen people, Galatians 3:16,28-29 KJV [16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. But these people who hold onto the claim that Israel and the Jews are still God's chosen people grasp at the first sentence of the following verse, Romans 11:2 KJV God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Context is very important here, as a later verse says, Romans 11:5 KJV Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ...meaning at the time that Paul wrote Romans 11 there was a remnant of God's people, Paul being one of them. In that same chapter Paul goes on to explain that if they, or anyone for that matter, turns to Christ that they will be grafted onto the olive tree which represents God's chosen. Is there anything you'd like to add? I could go on but I don't want to cover it all myself, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a discussion.
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