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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 23, 2018 19:56:11 GMT
Just as cute pair unknown and Eodnhoj7 share a thread to discuss philosophy together, so Dk and I plan to share our own discussion too. Please refrain from comments here. You can make your own threads based off stuff here for your own separate discussions.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 24, 2018 5:24:36 GMT
All seems well. Next would like to focus on the priesthood started in OT. The first priest mentioned in the bible is Melchizedek who was also the king of Salem. The word "salem" means peace so in a way he translates as the king of peace. This is important for the coming of the new covenant. The first man, Adam, brought death and the last Adam, Jesus, brought life. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47 And Melchizedek was the first priest and Jesus was the last priest. Kind of like Adam and Jesus thing too. Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”. He, like Adam, was symbolizing the One to come. Adam brought death while Jesus brought life. Melchizedek (and other priests) brought the remission of sins by continuous sacrifices and Jesus the last priest brought the last sacrifice of Himself. Hence, why Jesus is a priest forever and no other priests are needed unless they do not accept the sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews 7:23-24 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. These verses are clear that all the human priests before Christ died and had to be replaced. But Jesus, God, has no end so He is a priest forever. Sadly, people still keep anointing priests and reject the endless priest, Jesus. Human priests served as mediators between people and God and offered sacrifices for everyone in OT. But with Jesus, our last and endless priest, He's the only mediator for us now. Yet, others still look to other people to be a mediator for them sadly. Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. The first priesthood was temporarily because wasn't perfect. It needed Jesus to step up to be the Priest forever, because He is perfect. Hebrews 7:26-28 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. Which is why Jesus is the last High Priest and only High Priest for New Covenant Christians. I think getting new priests today is an insult to God. I absolutely hate that people wish to replace Him with a human priest with weaknesses. Your thoughts? Additions? I agree with all that you said Salem does mean peace as scripture says, and it is supposed that the city Salem in the time of Abraham is today's Jerusalem which in Hebrew means "City of Peace". Absolutely, Melchizedek is symbolic of Christ as a priest bringing the remission of sins along with other priests of the OT. A lot of the ordinances of the OT set forth by God work as symbolism for the new covenant to come. It is a shame that the Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, etc. don't understand Hebrews for exactly what it says; they demonstrate this by ordaining priests to this day. Also, many people today like to think that Melchizedek was actually Jesus, but this is not true; scripture gives no indication of it being so. Moreover, for some odd reason people also try to establish a link between God appearing before Abraham in Genesis 18 and Abraham meeting Melchizedek to justify their odd belief of Melchizedek being Jesus I don't understand how this can be done, there is no relation between Abraham(Abram at the time) meeting Melchizedek in Salem and God appearing before Abraham 4 chapters later in scripture, therefore Melchizedek cannot be Jesus. And yes, priests before Christ would die and had to be replaced constantly, but with Christ, who is eternal, as high priest and the mediator/intercessor of the new covenant, no replacement is needed and no continuous sacrifices are needed as Christ died once for the sins of the whole world. Therefore there is no absolutely no need to ordain new priests as the Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. do. These denominations take away what God has given to us as believers, that is the royal priesthood by faith in Christ, making it a hierarchy of sorts that would otherwise put those of the faith less than saved because the only thing less than a child of God, the royal priesthood, is a non-believer, which truly is an insult not only to believers, but to God Himself. It is showing open rebellion and/or ignorance to what God has given and done for us and for the whole world. Part of the issue seems to come from what the word πρεσβυτέρους(presbyterous) is interpreted as, but this word only means elder, never priest. Even in the OT there is a distinct difference between elders and priests, so it shouldn't be confused at all. The other part of the issue is the misinterpretation of who is being talked about in 1 Peter 2:5-9, but there should be no issue there either, as 1 Peter 1 starts off, 1 Peter 1:1-2 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Strangers are also Gentiles in the Bible. There's this passage to prove it so, Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. And we know that children of God are being referred to as strangers in 1 Peter because it says " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". So it isn't referring to unsaved people. Thoughts? Yes, the ordinances about priests and stuff had been removed but 10 commanments/law kept. OT requirements... Exodus 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt show them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Nehemiah 10:32-33 Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.So each year during appointed times they performed these ordinaces. And you see it was continual because it couldn't be done once forever. You needed the sacrifice of Jesus to end the continual ordinaces and make Him the endless High Priest who wouldn't be replaced again. He ended the ordinances forever. And without Him stepping up to make the perfect sacrifice you'll just have the sacrifice of animals...which cannot save you in the end. It was only temporary until the last perfect sacrifice was made. Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. The old covenant had these ordinaces and here's what new covenant says of them... Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.So, first covenant may have still had a good divine service to God but it was a worldy sanctuary as it says above. But Christ is a better covenant that's not of this world at all and is perfect. Worldy covenant is not good and the below verse says He's not a worldy sanctuary because of the last bolded part in the verse. Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building. The ordiances of OT were carnal (humanly/worldly and not spiritual basically) ordinaces. But these carnal ordinaces had no place in the new covenant and needed to end. A reformation was needed. And yet people speak badly of the reformation that drops OT ordinaces and stuff when it is a necessity to do in order to accept the gift of salvation. Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.God spoke of this reformation in OT too. He said when His people will turn away then He will end His covenant (OT covenant/ordinances) with them to make something else and the Gentiles have gladly accepted it. Jeremiah 31:36-37 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. This new covenant will come said God. Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah So when a new covenant comes the old must convenant is useless. God moved on and so must those who obey Him. And Paul reminds us of God's words in Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. So we must reform and move to the new convenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. So, what God said must be fulfilled. It's a new and everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. The bolded part reminds us that it isn't a worldly covenent like the old covenant but a covenent of God. And the cool part is the last time God mentioned covenant in OT it was to say that His messenger (John the Baptist) will come to proclaim Him (Jesus/God). And God said He will come to His temple...obviously to be the High Priest forever! Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Jesus didn't come until NT to be the High Priest of the new and endless covenant. The peace part is simply God talking about His new covenant as mentioned before in this verse. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Exactly. Plus priests are not like Jesus. The worldly replaceable priests can and will from time to time profane God. He won't put up with that forever. He will replace them. Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. This above Jeremiah verse was written right in between the mentions of the new covenant to show what is wrong with the OT covenant. Yes, God thinks negatively of earthly priests overall as we saw the verse earlier because they cannot be Him. And I bolded in your verses above where it says the ordinaces are gone. Priests were also ordained. This ordinance is now gone by God. It's referring to the saved people by the new everlasting covenant because blood is a requirement in both covenants. Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.Thoughts? Agree?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Dec 28, 2018 1:52:59 GMT
I agree with all that you said Salem does mean peace as scripture says, and it is supposed that the city Salem in the time of Abraham is today's Jerusalem which in Hebrew means "City of Peace". Absolutely, Melchizedek is symbolic of Christ as a priest bringing the remission of sins along with other priests of the OT. A lot of the ordinances of the OT set forth by God work as symbolism for the new covenant to come. It is a shame that the Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, etc. don't understand Hebrews for exactly what it says; they demonstrate this by ordaining priests to this day. Also, many people today like to think that Melchizedek was actually Jesus, but this is not true; scripture gives no indication of it being so. Moreover, for some odd reason people also try to establish a link between God appearing before Abraham in Genesis 18 and Abraham meeting Melchizedek to justify their odd belief of Melchizedek being Jesus I don't understand how this can be done, there is no relation between Abraham(Abram at the time) meeting Melchizedek in Salem and God appearing before Abraham 4 chapters later in scripture, therefore Melchizedek cannot be Jesus. And yes, priests before Christ would die and had to be replaced constantly, but with Christ, who is eternal, as high priest and the mediator/intercessor of the new covenant, no replacement is needed and no continuous sacrifices are needed as Christ died once for the sins of the whole world. Therefore there is no absolutely no need to ordain new priests as the Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. do. These denominations take away what God has given to us as believers, that is the royal priesthood by faith in Christ, making it a hierarchy of sorts that would otherwise put those of the faith less than saved because the only thing less than a child of God, the royal priesthood, is a non-believer, which truly is an insult not only to believers, but to God Himself. It is showing open rebellion and/or ignorance to what God has given and done for us and for the whole world. Part of the issue seems to come from what the word πρεσβυτέρους(presbyterous) is interpreted as, but this word only means elder, never priest. Even in the OT there is a distinct difference between elders and priests, so it shouldn't be confused at all. The other part of the issue is the misinterpretation of who is being talked about in 1 Peter 2:5-9, but there should be no issue there either, as 1 Peter 1 starts off, 1 Peter 1:1-2 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Strangers are also Gentiles in the Bible. There's this passage to prove it so, Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. And we know that children of God are being referred to as strangers in 1 Peter because it says " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". So it isn't referring to unsaved people. Thoughts? Yes, the ordinances about priests and stuff had been removed but 10 commanments/law kept. OT requirements... Exodus 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt show them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Nehemiah 10:32-33 Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.So each year during appointed times they performed these ordinaces. And you see it was continual because it couldn't be done once forever. You needed the sacrifice of Jesus to end the continual ordinaces and make Him the endless High Priest who wouldn't be replaced again. He ended the ordinances forever. And without Him stepping up to make the perfect sacrifice you'll just have the sacrifice of animals...which cannot save you in the end. It was only temporary until the last perfect sacrifice was made. Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. The old covenant had these ordinaces and here's what new covenant says of them... Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.So, first covenant may have still had a good divine service to God but it was a worldy sanctuary as it says above. But Christ is a better covenant that's not of this world at all and is perfect. Worldy covenant is not good and the below verse says He's not a worldy sanctuary because of the last bolded part in the verse. Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building. The ordiances of OT were carnal (humanly/worldly and not spiritual basically) ordinaces. But these carnal ordinaces had no place in the new covenant and needed to end. A reformation was needed. And yet people speak badly of the reformation that drops OT ordinaces and stuff when it is a necessity to do in order to accept the gift of salvation. Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.God spoke of this reformation in OT too. He said when His people will turn away then He will end His covenant (OT covenant/ordinances) with them to make something else and the Gentiles have gladly accepted it. Jeremiah 31:36-37 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. This new covenant will come said God. Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah So when a new covenant comes the old must convenant is useless. God moved on and so must those who obey Him. And Paul reminds us of God's words in Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. So we must reform and move to the new convenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. So, what God said must be fulfilled. It's a new and everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. The bolded part reminds us that it isn't a worldly covenent like the old covenant but a covenent of God. And the cool part is the last time God mentioned covenant in OT it was to say that His messenger (John the Baptist) will come to proclaim Him (Jesus/God). And God said He will come to His temple...obviously to be the High Priest forever! Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Jesus didn't come until NT to be the High Priest of the new and endless covenant. The peace part is simply God talking about His new covenant as mentioned before in this verse. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Exactly. Plus priests are not like Jesus. The worldly replaceable priests can and will from time to time profane God. He won't put up with that forever. He will replace them. Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. This above Jeremiah verse was written right in between the mentions of the new covenant to show what is wrong with the OT covenant. Yes, God thinks negatively of earthly priests overall as we saw the verse earlier because they cannot be Him. And I bolded in your verses above where it says the ordinaces are gone. Priests were also ordained. This ordinance is now gone by God. It's referring to the saved people by the new everlasting covenant because blood is a requirement in both covenants. Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.Thoughts? Agree? I agree There isn't really anything more that I can add to this topic. Do you have anymore to add? Or should we move onto another topic?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 28, 2018 2:12:35 GMT
Yes, the ordinances about priests and stuff had been removed but 10 commanments/law kept. OT requirements... Exodus 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt show them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Nehemiah 10:32-33 Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God; For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.So each year during appointed times they performed these ordinaces. And you see it was continual because it couldn't be done once forever. You needed the sacrifice of Jesus to end the continual ordinaces and make Him the endless High Priest who wouldn't be replaced again. He ended the ordinances forever. And without Him stepping up to make the perfect sacrifice you'll just have the sacrifice of animals...which cannot save you in the end. It was only temporary until the last perfect sacrifice was made. Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. The old covenant had these ordinaces and here's what new covenant says of them... Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.So, first covenant may have still had a good divine service to God but it was a worldy sanctuary as it says above. But Christ is a better covenant that's not of this world at all and is perfect. Worldy covenant is not good and the below verse says He's not a worldy sanctuary because of the last bolded part in the verse. Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building. The ordiances of OT were carnal (humanly/worldly and not spiritual basically) ordinaces. But these carnal ordinaces had no place in the new covenant and needed to end. A reformation was needed. And yet people speak badly of the reformation that drops OT ordinaces and stuff when it is a necessity to do in order to accept the gift of salvation. Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.God spoke of this reformation in OT too. He said when His people will turn away then He will end His covenant (OT covenant/ordinances) with them to make something else and the Gentiles have gladly accepted it. Jeremiah 31:36-37 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. This new covenant will come said God. Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah So when a new covenant comes the old must convenant is useless. God moved on and so must those who obey Him. And Paul reminds us of God's words in Jeremiah. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. So we must reform and move to the new convenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. So, what God said must be fulfilled. It's a new and everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. The bolded part reminds us that it isn't a worldly covenent like the old covenant but a covenent of God. And the cool part is the last time God mentioned covenant in OT it was to say that His messenger (John the Baptist) will come to proclaim Him (Jesus/God). And God said He will come to His temple...obviously to be the High Priest forever! Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Jesus didn't come until NT to be the High Priest of the new and endless covenant. The peace part is simply God talking about His new covenant as mentioned before in this verse. Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. Exactly. Plus priests are not like Jesus. The worldly replaceable priests can and will from time to time profane God. He won't put up with that forever. He will replace them. Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. This above Jeremiah verse was written right in between the mentions of the new covenant to show what is wrong with the OT covenant. Yes, God thinks negatively of earthly priests overall as we saw the verse earlier because they cannot be Him. And I bolded in your verses above where it says the ordinaces are gone. Priests were also ordained. This ordinance is now gone by God. It's referring to the saved people by the new everlasting covenant because blood is a requirement in both covenants. Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.Thoughts? Agree? I agree There isn't really anything more that I can add to this topic. Do you have anymore to add? Or should we move onto another topic? Do you have a topic in mind?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 28, 2018 2:17:04 GMT
Oh one more thing. New Testament changed the priesthood to just Jesus being chosen as priest so it stays Him as priest forever. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:12 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Hebrews 7:24 I don't think I mentioned these verses yet
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Post by DKTrav88 on Dec 29, 2018 4:22:06 GMT
I agree There isn't really anything more that I can add to this topic. Do you have anymore to add? Or should we move onto another topic? Do you have a topic in mind? How about the subject of marriage or did you want to go over a few more topics before jumping into that?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 29, 2018 4:56:19 GMT
Do you have a topic in mind? How about the subject of marriage or did you want to go over a few more topics before jumping into that? Marriage is fine. You can start it.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 3, 2019 7:34:31 GMT
How about the subject of marriage or did you want to go over a few more topics before jumping into that? Marriage is fine. You can start it. Mkay The first time a marriage is mentioned in the bible is in Genesis 2:23-24, 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. It was instituted by God in the beginning because God said in Genesis 2:18, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." ...as there was not an help meet for him, Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
So God institutionalized marriage because it was not good for man to be alone. In Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:9 Jesus says, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." This means God does not want us to divorce, and God makes this very clear in Malachi 2:16 where it says, “For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.” So God hates divorce, it says it plainly. Agree so far? Just starting off slow for now, I know there is a lot more to cover
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 5, 2019 8:38:57 GMT
Marriage is fine. You can start it. Mkay The first time a marriage is mentioned in the bible is in Genesis 2:23-24, 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Yes, a woman was taken from a man's body. She is a part of his bones and flesh. So the man must realize this when it's time and leave his parents it says to "cleave" to his other half basically because she's a part of him. Just like this verse below says Eve is Adam because she's from him and part of him. It's "they" because two parts of one being called "Adam" since God made Adam and took her out of him and they must unite as one because are part of each other. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Genesis 5:2 Yes, correct. But it isn't a comamdment to not be alone. So you're not required to marry but prefered to marry only because "it's not good for a man to be alone" not because "it's a sin to be alone". But then yes if you agree to marry then you must stay married because not staying married is a sin because it's dealing treacherously with your spouse which is not loving them and so on. Yup, this all sounds like not loving them anymore and sinning. Also, arranged marriages are not allowed. The person marrying must find their match or other half to them. Plus there's only one other half anyway. This is the thing which the LORD doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry.Numbers 36:6 So God said to let them decide who they will marry and to marry godly people basically. Just as Paul says to marry in the Lord who seems right for you ("whom she will" it says below). The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.1 Corinthians 7:39 So to keep God's law they must remain married or else they sin and sin leads to death/hell. Only time a marriage is truly over is with a death of the spouse because then you're free to marry "in the Lord only whom you choose not who is chosen for you". So no arranged marriages. Comments? Agree? Disagree?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 9, 2019 1:34:40 GMT
Mkay The first time a marriage is mentioned in the bible is in Genesis 2:23-24, 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Yes, a woman was taken from a man's body. She is a part of his bones and flesh. So the man must realize this when it's time and leave his parents it says to "cleave" to his other half basically because she's a part of him. Just like this verse below says Eve is Adam because she's from him and part of him. It's "they" because two parts of one being called "Adam" since God made Adam and took her out of him and they must unite as one because are part of each other. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Genesis 5:2 Yes, correct. But it isn't a comamdment to not be alone. So you're not required to marry but prefered to marry only because "it's not good for a man to be alone" not because "it's a sin to be alone". But then yes if you agree to marry then you must stay married because not staying married is a sin because it's dealing treacherously with your spouse which is not loving them and so on. Yup, this all sounds like not loving them anymore and sinning. Also, arranged marriages are not allowed. The person marrying must find their match or other half to them. Plus there's only one other half anyway. This is the thing which the LORD doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry.Numbers 36:6 So God said to let them decide who they will marry and to marry godly people basically. Just as Paul says to marry in the Lord who seems right for you ("whom she will" it says below). The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.1 Corinthians 7:39 So to keep God's law they must remain married or else they sin and sin leads to death/hell. Only time a marriage is truly over is with a death of the spouse because then you're free to marry "in the Lord only whom you choose not who is chosen for you". So no arranged marriages. Comments? Agree? Disagree? I agree The Genesis 5:2 verse is a good verse for supporting the woman taking the name of the man in marriage, I will be using that one in the future for sure Right, there is no commandment to marry and it is not a sin to be alone. However, God does say it is not good for man to be alone, but I understand that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:7-8, 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. ...Paul is saying that he would like that men were like him, but he understands that every man has their own God-given gift, so he knows that what he wants will not be so, as he is the chosen vessel of God sent to preach Christ to the Gentiles. Moreover, he says that it is good that men or women that are like him, missionaries/evangelists who are set out to preach the gospel of Christ to the unsaved, and chose to remain unmarried, that it is also good. As you know, I haven't read a lot of the OT, so I didn't know about Numbers 36:6. I will also be using that verse in the future for biblical support against arranged marriages. Comments? Agree? Should we go into marriage structure next?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 2:58:55 GMT
DKTrav88 Well, the woman came from the man. She is part of his body so only makes sense that when the rib (woman) returns to its place of origin (man's body) then she becomes him again. That's why God called them both Adam because both are Adam because are from him. Genesis 2:22-24 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. God wants the male and female to unite back into one flesh as they were from the beginning. And live as one being until death. This was the whole purpose of there being a male and female on this Earth. So one flesh is one being. How can one being or human be destroyed or end in life? Only by death and no other way. Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. It's also good to be alone as verse 8 above says that you quoted. God just doesn't want people to be lonely so He suggests to unite together back into one flesh but if someone isn't lonely then it's good to stay as they are as Paul says. Each has their own calling and their own gifts from God. Life on Earth isn't even about marriage but about following God whether you do it alone or not. He isn't suggesting we do exactly what he wants though but he knows it's best not to marry in general. But he's is saying you can do either path depending on which one is right for you. Paul and God just want you to focus on God no matter what and marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God. Jesus told His disciples this and they knew that in some cases it's best not to marry. Marriage can separate you from God and even family if you love them more than God. So to be safe rather than sorry is to not even marry if it can cause a problem and to practice putting family second. Jesus reminds us that if we put them first then we lose Him. We can't ever love anyone or anything more than God. Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Well, it's mentioned in OT and NT since I did verses from both. And whether a parent forces a marriage then the child can still say "I don't" on their wedding day not "I do". So if they choose to say "I do" then they're responsible for their decision because parents can't say "I do" for them otherwise it's the parent getting married not them. So they can't blame parents after saying "I do" any longer because they took matters into their own hands and accepted to be one. The law stands no matter what after that point. Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. Agree or disagree? Comments? And you can start the marriage structure if you're ready!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 16, 2019 5:18:33 GMT
DKTrav88 Well, the woman came from the man. She is part of his body so only makes sense that when the rib (woman) returns to its place of origin (man's body) then she becomes him again. That's why God called them both Adam because both are Adam because are from him. Genesis 2:22-24 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. God wants the male and female to unite back into one flesh as they were from the beginning. And live as one being until death. This was the whole purpose of there being a male and female on this Earth. So one flesh is one being. How can one being or human be destroyed or end in life? Only by death and no other way. Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. It's also good to be alone as verse 8 above says that you quoted. God just doesn't want people to be lonely so He suggests to unite together back into one flesh but if someone isn't lonely then it's good to stay as they are as Paul says. Each has their own calling and their own gifts from God. Life on Earth isn't even about marriage but about following God whether you do it alone or not. He isn't suggesting we do exactly what he wants though but he knows it's best not to marry in general. But he's is saying you can do either path depending on which one is right for you. Paul and God just want you to focus on God no matter what and marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God. Jesus told His disciples this and they knew that in some cases it's best not to marry. Marriage can separate you from God and even family if you love them more than God. So to be safe rather than sorry is to not even marry if it can cause a problem and to practice putting family second. Jesus reminds us that if we put them first then we lose Him. We can't ever love anyone or anything more than God. Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Well, it's mentioned in OT and NT since I did verses from both. And whether a parent forces a marriage then the child can still say "I don't" on their wedding day not "I do". So if they choose to say "I do" then they're responsible for their decision because parents can't say "I do" for them otherwise it's the parent getting married not them. So they can't blame parents after saying "I do" any longer because they took matters into their own hands and accepted to be one. The law stands no matter what after that point. Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. Agree or disagree? Comments? And you can start the marriage structure if you're ready! Yes, I agree Ah, yes, Genesis 2:22-24 supports taking the man's name as well And yes, in verse 8 it does say it is good to be alone too, but only if they are in the same state as Paul, as in evangelizing and spreading the gospel as this verse says, 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. But I agree also that marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God and how it can separate you from God and your family if you love them more than God. Jesus said in Matthew 19, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." and His disciples said to Him, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."...so they are saying it is not good to marry because it can lead to adultery and Jesus doesn't disagree with them in the next verse. And there's also the verse you quoted Matthew 10:37 which says if you love your family more than God you are not worthy of Him. And arranged marriages also go against freedom of choice which is completely supported in the Bible from the beginning Mkay, I'll start on marriage structure Marriage structure is given to us in Ephesians 5 and in 1 Corinthians 7, as well as a little bit in Titus 2 and 1 Peter 3. It says in Ephesians 5, 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. So wives should submit themselves to their husbands as the head of the family, just as the church is to submit themselves to Christ as its head. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it, so the husband should give himself for his wife. And just as God nourishes and cherishes the church, the husband is to do so for his wife. And as you quoted earlier in Mark 10:8 and Genesis 2:22-24, it resembles the structure of the church and Christ where the church is the body of Christ, just as Adam says "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." the church is of Christ's flesh and bones and they are brought together as one. Agree so far?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 18, 2019 8:21:14 GMT
DKTrav88 Well, the woman came from the man. She is part of his body so only makes sense that when the rib (woman) returns to its place of origin (man's body) then she becomes him again. That's why God called them both Adam because both are Adam because are from him. Genesis 2:22-24 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. God wants the male and female to unite back into one flesh as they were from the beginning. And live as one being until death. This was the whole purpose of there being a male and female on this Earth. So one flesh is one being. How can one being or human be destroyed or end in life? Only by death and no other way. Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. It's also good to be alone as verse 8 above says that you quoted. God just doesn't want people to be lonely so He suggests to unite together back into one flesh but if someone isn't lonely then it's good to stay as they are as Paul says. Each has their own calling and their own gifts from God. Life on Earth isn't even about marriage but about following God whether you do it alone or not. He isn't suggesting we do exactly what he wants though but he knows it's best not to marry in general. But he's is saying you can do either path depending on which one is right for you. Paul and God just want you to focus on God no matter what and marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God. Jesus told His disciples this and they knew that in some cases it's best not to marry. Marriage can separate you from God and even family if you love them more than God. So to be safe rather than sorry is to not even marry if it can cause a problem and to practice putting family second. Jesus reminds us that if we put them first then we lose Him. We can't ever love anyone or anything more than God. Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Well, it's mentioned in OT and NT since I did verses from both. And whether a parent forces a marriage then the child can still say "I don't" on their wedding day not "I do". So if they choose to say "I do" then they're responsible for their decision because parents can't say "I do" for them otherwise it's the parent getting married not them. So they can't blame parents after saying "I do" any longer because they took matters into their own hands and accepted to be one. The law stands no matter what after that point. Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. Agree or disagree? Comments? And you can start the marriage structure if you're ready! Yes, I agree Ah, yes, Genesis 2:22-24 supports taking the man's name as well And yes, in verse 8 it does say it is good to be alone too, but only if they are in the same state as Paul, as in evangelizing and spreading the gospel as this verse says, 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. But I agree also that marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God and how it can separate you from God and your family if you love them more than God. Jesus said in Matthew 19, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." and His disciples said to Him, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."...so they are saying it is not good to marry because it can lead to adultery and Jesus doesn't disagree with them in the next verse. And there's also the verse you quoted Matthew 10:37 which says if you love your family more than God you are not worthy of Him. And arranged marriages also go against freedom of choice which is completely supported in the Bible from the beginning Mkay, I'll start on marriage structure Marriage structure is given to us in Ephesians 5 and in 1 Corinthians 7, as well as a little bit in Titus 2 and 1 Peter 3. It says in Ephesians 5, 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. So wives should submit themselves to their husbands as the head of the family, just as the church is to submit themselves to Christ as its head. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it, so the husband should give himself for his wife. And just as God nourishes and cherishes the church, the husband is to do so for his wife. And as you quoted earlier in Mark 10:8 and Genesis 2:22-24, it resembles the structure of the church and Christ where the church is the body of Christ, just as Adam says "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." the church is of Christ's flesh and bones and they are brought together as one. Agree so far? Well, a Christian is always going to be evangelizing and spreading the gospel anyway because they love God. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Otherwise they're not a Christian at all because they don't love their neighbor enough to preach to them. So yeah a Christian can be marriage till death or be single till death and single is better because you can focus on God more. Yup, and you don't ever want to make God think you love Him less than someone else. Remember Abraham? He loved his son TOO much and God was not pleased. God made him choose between Him and his son. Abraham was grieved because he'd have to give up his son but he had a test to do to prove to God he loved God more by obeying Him. We don't even want to get to that point because God will take away children, spouses, etc. by cancer or some other way to show us we didn't deserve them or the gifts He gave. Even though Abraham was grieved and didn't want to lose his son, he came to his sense and got ready to give him back to God since God gave him Isaac. This pleased God enough to let him keep Isaac because Isaac didn't take His place in Abraham's life. Spouses (not just wives) are instructed here to live for each other as they would to God because both belong to each other and are part of each other so both must submit to each other fully when deciding to join as one. 1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. And whatever one wouldn't do to God, they can't do it to their spouse. They're now living for God and their spouse. Otherwise they should just live to God if living for another will be too much. Here it is totally speaking about only husbands being the head like Christ is the head of the church. Husband (male form) is the head of his wife (female form) and Christ (male form) is the head of His church (female form). The wife came from her husband. She was formed from him because she's made from his rib. The church is made from Christ (the rock) because the church came from Him too. The church exists because of His body and so we are members of His body. Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.And likewise the woman is a member of her husband's body. Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore, the a person separates from Christ's body they can't have everlasting life anymore because they don't have Jesus to save them. And same with the spouses if they separate they're not with God anymore either because they fail to love God and their spouse to stay in the body. The separation of a member leads to hell. And being one with Christ in His body and being one with spouse leads to enternal life in heaven. Husbands must love their wives if they love themselves because she's a part of him and made from his own body. He must cherish her and keep her perfect basically. Just like Christ does to His body/church. God loves Himself to overcome everything and loves the church to even die for it. Husbands must love their bodies(wives) until death too. Otherwise they don't care about their bodies and divorce and then end up in hell all because they didn't care about their life and future. So loving your spouse till death is proof you care about your own self. And wives same thing too because body (man/Christ) must want it's members (woman/church) and members (wife/church) must stay with their (man/Christ). The great mystery is that God and husband works the same way as woman and church is what Paul wanted us to comprehend in the verses you quoted above. Leaving behind your old life (parents, family, friends, etc) to be with your spouse/God is what verse 31 above says. Become one fully with spouse and God without letting anything or anyone be in the way to be one with the body with spouse and with God. Exactly! This is the great mystery Paul said spouses must keep each other perfect for each other and so must Christ and the church in perfect love. 2 Corinthians 8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf. But if we don't love others (like our spouse) then we don't love God and aren't part of His body. 1 John 4:12, 16 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Because this verse below applies to any human being like your spouse not just brother. 1 John 4:20, 21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. And... 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. So if we don't love spouse, sibling, parent, friend,etc. then we don't even love God and are liars. Agree? Disagree? Anything to add?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 19, 2019 3:05:55 GMT
Yes, I agree Ah, yes, Genesis 2:22-24 supports taking the man's name as well And yes, in verse 8 it does say it is good to be alone too, but only if they are in the same state as Paul, as in evangelizing and spreading the gospel as this verse says, 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. But I agree also that marriage can be an obstacle in your relationship to follow God and how it can separate you from God and your family if you love them more than God. Jesus said in Matthew 19, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." and His disciples said to Him, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."...so they are saying it is not good to marry because it can lead to adultery and Jesus doesn't disagree with them in the next verse. And there's also the verse you quoted Matthew 10:37 which says if you love your family more than God you are not worthy of Him. And arranged marriages also go against freedom of choice which is completely supported in the Bible from the beginning Mkay, I'll start on marriage structure Marriage structure is given to us in Ephesians 5 and in 1 Corinthians 7, as well as a little bit in Titus 2 and 1 Peter 3. It says in Ephesians 5, 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. So wives should submit themselves to their husbands as the head of the family, just as the church is to submit themselves to Christ as its head. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it, so the husband should give himself for his wife. And just as God nourishes and cherishes the church, the husband is to do so for his wife. And as you quoted earlier in Mark 10:8 and Genesis 2:22-24, it resembles the structure of the church and Christ where the church is the body of Christ, just as Adam says "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." the church is of Christ's flesh and bones and they are brought together as one. Agree so far? Well, a Christian is always going to be evangelizing and spreading the gospel anyway because they love God. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Otherwise they're not a Christian at all because they don't love their neighbor enough to preach to them. So yeah a Christian can be marriage till death or be single till death and single is better because you can focus on God more. Yup, and you don't ever want to make God think you love Him less than someone else. Remember Abraham? He loved his son TOO much and God was not pleased. God made him choose between Him and his son. Abraham was grieved because he'd have to give up his son but he had a test to do to prove to God he loved God more by obeying Him. We don't even want to get to that point because God will take away children, spouses, etc. by cancer or some other way to show us we didn't deserve them or the gifts He gave. Even though Abraham was grieved and didn't want to lose his son, he came to his sense and got ready to give him back to God since God gave him Isaac. This pleased God enough to let him keep Isaac because Isaac didn't take His place in Abraham's life. Spouses (not just wives) are instructed here to live for each other as they would to God because both belong to each other and are part of each other so both must submit to each other fully when deciding to join as one. 1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. And whatever one wouldn't do to God, they can't do it to their spouse. They're now living for God and their spouse. Otherwise they should just live to God if living for another will be too much. Here it is totally speaking about only husbands being the head like Christ is the head of the church. Husband (male form) is the head of his wife (female form) and Christ (male form) is the head of His church (female form). The wife came from her husband. She was formed from him because she's made from his rib. The church is made from Christ (the rock) because the church came from Him too. The church exists because of His body and so we are members of His body. Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.And likewise the woman is a member of her husband's body. Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore, the a person separates from Christ's body they can't have everlasting life anymore because they don't have Jesus to save them. And same with the spouses if they separate they're not with God anymore either because they fail to love God and their spouse to stay in the body. The separation of a member leads to hell. And being one with Christ in His body and being one with spouse leads to enternal life in heaven. Husbands must love their wives if they love themselves because she's a part of him and made from his own body. He must cherish her and keep her perfect basically. Just like Christ does to His body/church. God loves Himself to overcome everything and loves the church to even die for it. Husbands must love their bodies(wives) until death too. Otherwise they don't care about their bodies and divorce and then end up in hell all because they didn't care about their life and future. So loving your spouse till death is proof you care about your own self. And wives same thing too because body (man/Christ) must want it's members (woman/church) and members (wife/church) must stay with their (man/Christ). The great mystery is that God and husband works the same way as woman and church is what Paul wanted us to comprehend in the verses you quoted above. Leaving behind your old life (parents, family, friends, etc) to be with your spouse/God is what verse 31 above says. Become one fully with spouse and God without letting anything or anyone be in the way to be one with the body with spouse and with God. Exactly! This is the great mystery Paul said spouses must keep each other perfect for each other and so must Christ and the church in perfect love. 2 Corinthians 8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf. But if we don't love others (like our spouse) then we don't love God and aren't part of His body. 1 John 4:12, 16 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Because this verse below applies to any human being like your spouse not just brother. 1 John 4:20, 21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. And... 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. So if we don't love spouse, sibling, parent, friend,etc. then we don't even love God and are liars. Agree? Disagree? Anything to add? Yes, I agree, I wasn't trying to say otherwise. A Christian should always be spreading the gospel, but a single Christian is more focused on God than a married Christian who has to take care of their family and other responsibilities which is what 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 is speaking of. Yes, that's right. It was a test of Abraham's faith, whether he loved God more or his son more. Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Yes, that is correct, totally agree Yes absolutely. Christ(husband) is head of the church(wife). The church is the body of Christ, just as the female was taken from the male body, and together they are one. And this is why God hates divorce, because it leads to death(the separation of the body and the head), they must be one or there is no life. Yes, that is correct. Christ gave Himself for the church, and the husband is to follow suit. And yes, wives are to love their husbands as well, as the church is to love God. Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. There's also this verse, 1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; This verse isn't only saying that wives should be under the authority of their husbands, but that they are to correct their husbands if they are wrong and not obeying the word of God. Yes, this is correct Yes, absolutely correct Completely agree Yes, I wanted to add a little more on family structure... In Colossians 3 it says, 18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. 20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. So here we see that children are commanded to obey their parents in all things as it pleases God. And that fathers should not provoke their children to anger. And this passage in Titus 2, 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. This simple says that aged women should be teachers of good things and teach young women to be sober, to love their husbands and children, discreet(as in not reckless or careless), chaste(pure), keepers of the home, good, and obedient to their husbands so that the world of God is not blasphemed. Agree? Thoughts? Anything to add?
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 20, 2019 8:10:19 GMT
DKTrav88I agree with all of that. And now gonna mention some things I left out before and will continue from where you left of too. OT and NT commands us to choose who we marry and to choose "in the Lord". Meaning a Christian who God approves. Otherwise we have done wrong. Ezra 10:10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel. The verse above says the priest Ezra reminded the people that they have "transgressed" by taking strange wives. Transgressed means to go againt what God commands so it's disobeying God which is a sin. The priest was not happy that the men didn't marry in the Lord as in marrying godly wives. Marrying a person who doesn't love God is a disaster. They do not care about following God's commandments so they might hurt or kill their spouses or children and live how they want. They don't care about the fact that in marriage you become one till death and so on. They will be a disaster to your faith and home. So cannot be done. Nehemiah 13:27 Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives? And some people might say marrying not a Christian isn't in the 10 commandments but it is. It's the love your neighbor as yourself. You wouldn't want a bad parent so if you love your future kids (which you should always love by God's law) then you'd give them a great mother. Like Jesus said... Matthew 7:9-10 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Only a bad man who doesn't love his children would give them bad things. A man of God would only give good things like God gives good things to His children. And of course after both marry in the Lord they must live in knowledge or their prayers to God's ears will be hindered/stop as the verse below states since they stop being God's children by disobeying Him. 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. And God doesn't listen to prayers of sinners since they're Satan's responsibility. As these verses say... Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. So those who don't obey God by living righteously then God doesn't hear their prayers which are an abominatiom to Him. You also quoted this verse... I notice two important things here is that women must TEACH love and the word of God (second thing I'll mention at the bottom of post). Women are not there to sit quietly and let someone who needs Jesus to die. They will break the love your neighbor commandment by not teaching. So women must teach which is basically preaching God's word, just not inside of the church because the husband/Christ is in charge there and wives/church just obey the word of God that's preached. But otherwise they're responsible to... 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Never once does it say only males must do it in those verses. Same as OT. All the people are commanded to teach/preach as the verse below says. Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.So it says people which are male and female to teach their children. So we are told to teach those younger than us. Now that second thing that I said I'd mention at the end of this post is still part of this verse you quoted... The aged women part to me just means women who know God's word and lived by it must teach the younger women to do the same. Because OT says people must teach children or those younger than them who don't yet know what to do. We just must teach what me know to the younger generation especially but still to everyone because we must always... 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Anyone not letting a woman to teach/preach is wrong. Jesus didn't even stop them because as God He commanded the angels to tell the women to deliver things othetwise the angels wouldn't give females a task. The word "gospel" means good news and the good news is Christ's resurrection. And who were told to preach/teach this first? Women. Matthew 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. And... Luke 24:8-10 And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. They were to preach the risen Christ to His disciples/followers! The angel didn't wait for a man to show up at the tomb to have a man do it. He sent the women! God likes witnesses speaking most of all because it's real and powerful to the hearer. The testimony of these women is better than the rest because they witnessed an empty tomb with angels. Anyone witnessing the power of God in their lives must share it. Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Anything to add? Agree or disagree?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 24, 2019 20:09:23 GMT
DKTrav88 I agree with all of that. And now gonna mention some things I left out before and will continue from where you left of too. OT and NT commands us to choose who we marry and to choose "in the Lord". Meaning a Christian who God approves. Otherwise we have done wrong. Ezra 10:10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel. The verse above says the priest Ezra reminded the people that they have "transgressed" by taking strange wives. Transgressed means to go againt what God commands so it's disobeying God which is a sin. The priest was not happy that the men didn't marry in the Lord as in marrying godly wives. Marrying a person who doesn't love God is a disaster. They do not care about following God's commandments so they might hurt or kill their spouses or children and live how they want. They don't care about the fact that in marriage you become one till death and so on. They will be a disaster to your faith and home. So cannot be done. Nehemiah 13:27 Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives? And some people might say marrying not a Christian isn't in the 10 commandments but it is. It's the love your neighbor as yourself. You wouldn't want a bad parent so if you love your future kids (which you should always love by God's law) then you'd give them a great mother. Like Jesus said... Matthew 7:9-10 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Only a bad man who doesn't love his children would give them bad things. A man of God would only give good things like God gives good things to His children. And of course after both marry in the Lord they must live in knowledge or their prayers to God's ears will be hindered/stop as the verse below states since they stop being God's children by disobeying Him. 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. And God doesn't listen to prayers of sinners since they're Satan's responsibility. As these verses say... Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. So those who don't obey God by living righteously then God doesn't hear their prayers which are an abominatiom to Him. You also quoted this verse... I notice two important things here is that women must TEACH love and the word of God (second thing I'll mention at the bottom of post). Women are not there to sit quietly and let someone who needs Jesus to die. They will break the love your neighbor commandment by not teaching. So women must teach which is basically preaching God's word, just not inside of the church because the husband/Christ is in charge there and wives/church just obey the word of God that's preached. But otherwise they're responsible to... 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Never once does it say only males must do it in those verses. Same as OT. All the people are commanded to teach/preach as the verse below says. Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.So it says people which are male and female to teach their children. So we are told to teach those younger than us. Now that second thing that I said I'd mention at the end of this post is still part of this verse you quoted... The aged women part to me just means women who know God's word and lived by it must teach the younger women to do the same. Because OT says people must teach children or those younger than them who don't yet know what to do. We just must teach what me know to the younger generation especially but still to everyone because we must always... 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Anyone not letting a woman to teach/preach is wrong. Jesus didn't even stop them because as God He commanded the angels to tell the women to deliver things othetwise the angels wouldn't give females a task. The word "gospel" means good news and the good news is Christ's resurrection. And who were told to preach/teach this first? Women. Matthew 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. And... Luke 24:8-10 And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. They were to preach the risen Christ to His disciples/followers! The angel didn't wait for a man to show up at the tomb to have a man do it. He sent the women! God likes witnesses speaking most of all because it's real and powerful to the hearer. The testimony of these women is better than the rest because they witnessed an empty tomb with angels. Anyone witnessing the power of God in their lives must share it. Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Anything to add? Agree or disagree? I agree You said, But there's this passage here in 1 Corinthians 7, which I know does not condone marrying an unbeliever, it does give rules for how we are to deal with being married to an unbeliever, 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. Basically what it is saying is if we are already married to an unbeliever, not that we should marry an unbeliever, that we should not divorce them if we are pleased to be with them in marriage. It says the unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse and that their children are legitimate because of the faith of the believing spouse. This shouldn't be confused into making it seem okay to marry an unbeliever because that is not at all what this is saying. This passage is only referring to those who have accepted Christ as their savior after already being married as an unbeliever to an unbeliever, and their spouse didn't or hasn't yet accepted Christ. Yes absolutely, and this passages apply to this also, Ephesians 6:1-4 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. 4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. And the same is said in Colossians 3. Absolutely. The thought that women must sit quietly and not teach or say anything is only a rule within the church. There were prophetesses in the OT, Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. ...and there was a woman apostle spoken of in the book of Romans by Paul, Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. ...and in the book of Acts, Acts 21:8-9 8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. ...and the verses you quote after apply to all believers, not just men. And of course the verse you quoted in Luke, the women were giving their testimony to the disciples, the disciples didn't tell them to shut up and remain silent. Christianity is not like Islam where women are subject to all men and treated like a dog or a slave. Some former members of this forum seemed to have thought otherwise but this is kind of going away from the topic of marriage into a separate topic But, if we are finished with the topic of marriage, we could go into the topic of women's roles according to God's word, which we have already halfway covered in the topic of marriage Your thoughts?
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