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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 5, 2018 22:09:51 GMT
For or against and why?
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 9:11:30 GMT
Government isn’t even religious and yet you claim they are doing the will of God.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 9:23:54 GMT
When were Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles governing authorities? They weren't. Other high powers and ministers of God? What other high powers and ministers of God? Also why do the vast majority of translations say, "governing authorities?" Since you evidently did not read this the first time, read this link biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm This link shows the Romans 13:1 the first verse of the seven I mentioned in many translations, and do you know what they say? Submit to the governing authorities, submit to the power of the state, submit to the governing authorities and so on. Romans 13:3-4 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.… God is clearly talking about rulers here. biblehub.com/romans/13-3.htmSubmit also doesn't mean approve or support their multiple sins. And they're not ministers of God! They do not seek to do God's will. Christians must beware of them. We only submit as in not to wrong. But we don't submit to if they tell us to do wrong nor do we support their kills. They're against Christians and God in general. Jesus and the apostles were beaten or killed by their sins. You can praise them if you wish. I won't. We'll just agree to disagree. I did not say that you had to approve or support their multiple sins, I said the exact opposite a few posts back in a post you obviously didn't read. Which is in the italics below. My Reply to Just10: facepalm No, you are misreading or misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying that God gave authority to the governing authorities to use the sword to punish evildoers. If they are not punishing evildoers they are doing wrong. I am also saying what Paul is clearly says almost verbatum submit to the governing authorities. I am not saying that governments do everything right or that you should on a personal bases support them because God ordained them. God ordained Saul, Saul did evil in the sight of God and God punished him, however King David would not raise his sword against the lords anointed; it was God himself who did him in. This is a perfect illustration of mans relationship to the government.
The problem of you saying that they are not ministers of God is that it literally says they are ministers of God. In fact it says ALL authority is ordained by God. Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htmI agree with agreeing to disagree. My purpose was to convince you that you are wrong and to change you're opinion but I do not see that as possible. I have enjoyed this conversation with you Elizabeth and am sorry if my somewhat aggressive debate style has made you angry. That was not my intention.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 9:24:27 GMT
Government isn’t even religious and yet you claim they are doing the will of God. He seems to entrust them fully. When they do not work for God. God just wanted us to submit to doing good in general. Plus these earthly rulers are workers of darkeness overall. Christians mourn with the authority we have in place... When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Proverbs 29:2 Rulers here are darkness... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians:6:12 Rulers are against God.. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Acts:4:26
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 9:29:07 GMT
13:1 - Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. 13:2 - Therefore he who resists the authority, withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment. 13:3 - For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do you desire to have no fear of the authority? Do that which is good, and you will have praise from the same, if this was speaking of the today’s government, why is the government always known for doing evil? 13:4 - for he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid, for he doesn't bear the sword in vain; for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him who does evil. our government is not a servant of the Lord. They do evil relentlessly. 13:5 - Therefore you need to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience'13:6 - For this reason you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God's service, attending continually on this very thing. Government used to be good! They used to fight for our rights, the current government has tried to abolish the Constitution, which protects the people from total governmental control, which was out in place by good Christians
You must be happy every time you hear of wars because you know that the government started them.
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 9:31:30 GMT
Government isn’t even religious and yet you claim they are doing the will of God. He seems to entrust them fully. When they do not work for God. God just wanted us to submit to doing good in general. Plus these earthly rulers are workers of darkeness overall. Christians mourn with the authority we have in place... When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Proverbs 29:2 Rulers here are darkness... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians:6:12 Rulers are against God.. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Acts:4:26 Agree 100% *claps*
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 26, 2018 9:31:43 GMT
I was going to bring up how a thief was on the cross next to Christ and yet the OT punishment for stealing was not death. So where is the godly justice in Caesar’s government there? Christ, completely innocent, took the place of a murderer on the cross, next to a thief, who went to heaven after repenting nonetheless, all because of a power hungry Roman government that was afraid of a rebellion of the Jews who eventually rebelled anyway decades after Christ was crucified.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 9:34:51 GMT
Submit also doesn't mean approve or support their multiple sins. And they're not ministers of God! They do not seek to do God's will. Christians must beware of them. We only submit as in not to wrong. But we don't submit to if they tell us to do wrong nor do we support their kills. They're against Christians and God in general. Jesus and the apostles were beaten or killed by their sins. You can praise them if you wish. I won't. We'll just agree to disagree. I did not say that you had to approve or support their multiple sins, I said the exact opposite a few posts back in a post you obviously didn't read. Which is in the italics below. My Reply to Just10: facepalm No, you are misreading or misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying that God gave authority to the governing authorities to use the sword to punish evildoers. If they are not punishing evildoers they are doing wrong. I am also saying what Paul is clearly says almost verbatum submit to the governing authorities. I am not saying that governments do everything right or that you should on a personal bases support them because God ordained them. God ordained Saul, Saul did evil in the sight of God and God punished him, however King David would not raise his sword against the lords anointed; it was God himself who did him in. This is a perfect illustration of mans relationship to the government.
The problem of you saying that they are not ministers of God is that it literally says they are ministers of God. In fact it says ALL authority is ordained by God. Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htmI agree with agreeing to disagree. My purpose was to convince you that you are wrong and to change you're opinion but I do not see that as possible. I have enjoyed this conversation with you Elizabeth and am sorry if my somewhat aggressive debate style has made you angry. That was not my intention. They are not ministers to God if they are against God. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Acts:4:26 The world is overall against God. If the rulers on earth now were real ministers then they deserve to all go to heaven if they're obeying God. But they do not obey God and their darkness will be destroyed by God. Sin/sinner don't/doesn't minister to God...it only reigns until God puts an end to it. God is just patient and puts up with it but he'll take vengeance still. We're literally commanded to wrestle with the rulers on earth.... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians:6:12
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 9:37:06 GMT
The literal translation! exousiais means authority, the word government or governing was never used in Hebrew.. that was your main argument.. if they were speaking about government they would have used the word memshala
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 9:59:33 GMT
The literal translation! exousiais means authority, the word government or governing was never used in Hebrew.. that was your main argument Well its interesting that you bring up the Greek because of this verse right here. Romans 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. The Greek word used for taxes here is phorous which means taxes biblehub.com/text/romans/13-6.htm and wherever it is used refers to taxes. biblehub.com/greek/phorous_5411.htm Now who is it that you pay taxes to? This is not rocket science. The higher authorities here refers to rulers and to governments. None of you have told me what the alternative to governments is that Paul is speaking about. What other "authority" is he talking about? What authority kills people who do evil? What other authorities do you pay taxes too.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 10:05:57 GMT
I was going to bring up how a thief was on the cross next to Christ and yet the OT punishment for stealing was not death. So where is the godly justice in Caesar’s government there? Christ, completely innocent, took the place of a murderer on the cross, next to a thief, who went to heaven after repenting nonetheless, all because of a power hungry Roman government that was afraid of a rebellion of the Jews who eventually rebelled anyway decades after Christ was crucified. I have explained this to you and others ad nauseum. Government rulers ordained by God can choose to disobey God and not follow what they are put in place by God to do. If a government is not using the sword to punish evil but instead murdering innocents it is not doing what God made it to do and is disobeying the will of God. God will punish such a ruler that does this. I am not saying that what every government does is good I am saying that Paul tells you to submit to that government, even a corrupt one unless it commands you to sin. God will take care of evil rulers.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 10:10:41 GMT
I did not say that you had to approve or support their multiple sins, I said the exact opposite a few posts back in a post you obviously didn't read. Which is in the italics below. My Reply to Just10: No, you are misreading or misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying that God gave authority to the governing authorities to use the sword to punish evildoers. If they are not punishing evildoers they are doing wrong. I am also saying what Paul is clearly says almost verbatum submit to the governing authorities. I am not saying that governments do everything right or that you should on a personal bases support them because God ordained them. God ordained Saul, Saul did evil in the sight of God and God punished him, however King David would not raise his sword against the lords anointed; it was God himself who did him in. This is a perfect illustration of mans relationship to the government.
The problem of you saying that they are not ministers of God is that it literally says they are ministers of God. In fact it says ALL authority is ordained by God. Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htmI agree with agreeing to disagree. My purpose was to convince you that you are wrong and to change you're opinion but I do not see that as possible. I have enjoyed this conversation with you Elizabeth and am sorry if my somewhat aggressive debate style has made you angry. That was not my intention. They are not ministers to God if they are against God. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Acts:4:26 The world is overall against God. If the rulers on earth now were real ministers then they deserve to all go to heaven if they're obeying God. But they do not obey God and their darkness will be destroyed by God. Sin/sinner don't/doesn't minister to God...it only reigns until God puts an end to it. God is just patient and puts up with it but he'll take vengeance still. We're literally commanded to wrestle with the rulers on earth.... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians:6:12 Again, rulers that God ordains can choose to abuse their power and rebel against God. God destroys those rulers. Principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, spiritual wickedness in the high places, these are common words used to describe angels or rather fallen angels. The verse preceding what you quoted Ephesians 11 makes this clear, Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. The word FOR shows that Paul is referencing the previous verse in standing against the wiles of the devil and his fallen angels. This is a spiritual war against spiritual forces that tempt mankind and corrupt the world.
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 10:15:35 GMT
Authorities like Judges, magistrates.
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 10:18:26 GMT
For he is God's servant for your good (Rom 13:4). Many Christians assume that this applies to all rulers. This is nonsense. Rulers like Hitler and Stalin opposed God and slaughtered millions of innocent people. To describe them as servants of God doing good is absurd. This suggests there is something seriously twisted with the traditional understanding of this passage. This passage cannot apply to every ruler. A simple reading of the New Testament shows that many rulers do not do good. Herod the Great killed all the boys aged less than two who lived in the vicinity of Bethlehem (Matt 2:16). Herod the Tetrarch beheaded John the Baptist to avoid embarrassment in front of his guests (Mark 6:21-28). Pontus Pilate killed Jesus, because he was afraid of the people, even though he found no basis for the charges against him (Luke 23:14). Herod Agrippa had James the brother of John put to death with the sword (Acts 12:2). These few examples prove that most rulers and kings do not do good. Therefore, Paul cannot be speaking about all rulers and kings in Romans 13:4. We are seriously confused, if we think that dictators and politicians can be called God's servants.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 10:24:22 GMT
Authorities like Judges, magistrates. Show me the Greek word that specifically points out that they are magistrates. You basically chose three translations two of them from an obscure Syriac Bible to prove your point. Now lets look at the vast majorities of the other translations... biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm
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Clovis Merovingian
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Elder
Posts: 2,694
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 10:32:03 GMT
For he is God's servant for your good (Rom 13:4). Many Christians assume that this applies to all rulers. This is nonsense. Rulers like Hitler and Stalin opposed God and slaughtered millions of innocent people. To describe them as servants of God doing good is absurd. This suggests there is something seriously twisted with the traditional understanding of this passage. This passage cannot apply to every ruler. A simple reading of the New Testament shows that many rulers do not do good. Herod the Great killed all the boys aged less than two who lived in the vicinity of Bethlehem (Matt 2:16). Herod the Tetrarch beheaded John the Baptist to avoid embarrassment in front of his guests (Mark 6:21-28). Pontus Pilate killed Jesus, because he was afraid of the people, even though he found no basis for the charges against him (Luke 23:14). Herod Agrippa had James the brother of John put to death with the sword (Acts 12:2). These few examples prove that most rulers and kings do not do good. Therefore, Paul cannot be speaking about all rulers and kings in Romans 13:4. We are seriously confused, if we think that dictators and politicians can be called God's servants. It also says that all authority comes from God and that there is no authority that is not from God. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1&version=KJV The answer is that rulers are called to be servants for good but can abuse their power and are punished by God for it. King Saul was one of these people. He was called to be Gods servant and instead turned evil. Was he not ordained by God? Was he not called to be Gods servant?
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