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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 5, 2018 22:09:51 GMT
For or against and why?
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:32:57 GMT
Elizabeth, that is a very lame response. Look at Romans 13:6 and how it is translated across all the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-6.htm Yes its talking about governments. You pay taxes to governments. In fact, look at how Romans 13:1 is translated across the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm In caseyou don't click on the link for whatever reason let me tell you what most of these say verbatem as if copied from one another. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Yes the word governing authorities is used. The death penalty is endorsed by the Bible whether you want it to be or not. I know what it says but I'm saying you are misreading it. And you didn't answer the question where I asked if you're in support of when the government gave innocent people the death penalty. But let's use Romans for a bit.. So the two verses above state that if someone does evil then we don't punish them for it but instead live in peace with everyone. Jesus didn't recompense the woman who was to be stoned and instead lived peacefully with them all. Now these verses We are not to avenge it says. And avenge means to cause someone harm in return for something bad they did. Because the only one to avenge is God it says. We are told to do good to them instead. So if someone murders our family member we do not avenge them it says. Instead it says to show what to the enemy? Only give him good in return. Also authorities kill innocent beings. The authority killed Jesus among many innocent people. You think they won't be punished for this? They will! , again Elizabeth, avenge not yourselves as in YOU individually are not to avenge yourself, YOU are not supposed to repay evil for evil. I know this because in Romans 13, the chapter LITERALLY right after that one Paul says God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil. Do authorities kill innocent people? Yes. Saul who was ordained by God like Paul says all governing authorities are and he abused his authority to become a wicked murderous king. Yes, God punished him for this. It doesn't mean that Saul didn't have the right to punish genuine evil with the sword. Authorities killing innocent beings on purpose is not punishing evil. You say that only God can can avenge evil? How do you think he does this and through what means? Oh right, Paul says that God has given the ruling authorities the power of the sword to punish evildoers, huh funny thing. By your logic we shouldn't put criminals in prison either because that is avenging evil and only God can do that. Do, I support a government that gives innocent people the death penalty? Well, if it was an honest mistake then yes. You act like the United States government just gives criminals the death penalty knowing full well that they are innocent. These people given the death penalty are given their day in court and tried by a jury of their peers with the evidence standard being to the level of beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence is weighed and the jury makes a decision based on the evidence. This is the fairest system yet devised by mankind to try people. Mistakes are inevitable but rare and the mistakes seem to be something that God is willing to risk. If I am misreading what is obviously and plainly written in English for all to see than do tell me how I am misreading it and what you think it says.
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kusler
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Post by kusler on Aug 26, 2018 7:35:15 GMT
Why not just make criminals who would normally get Capital Punishment just work in a labour camp for some time? It's called paying your debt back to society for a reason.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 7:35:27 GMT
This is an erroneous debate. Seems like you are okay with every wrong thing the government ever does because of your false interpretation of The Bible, Jesus also predicted false and corrupt government, if you can’t see we are in that stage than something is not right. Yes! And some Christians even will be put to death Jesus sais. Luke 21:16-19 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And Paul and other disciples were put in jail by the authority. Acts 5:18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. And the authority even beheaded John the Baptist because they just felt like it! Matthew 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. I think I better quit talking about authorities. I'm getting mad over this Sad
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:38:51 GMT
This is an erroneous debate. Seems like you are okay with every wrong thing the government ever does because of your false interpretation of The Bible, Jesus also predicted false and corrupt government, if you can’t see we are in that stage than something is not right. facepalm No, you are misreading or misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying that God gave authority to the governing authorities to use the sword to punish evildoers. If they are not punishing evildoers they are doing wrong. I am also saying what Paul is clearly says almost verbatum submit to the governing authorities. I am not saying that governments do everything right or that you should on a personal bases support them because God ordained them. God ordained Saul, Saul did evil in the sight of God and God punished him, however King David would not raise his sword against the lords anointed; it was God himself who did him in. This is a perfect illustration of mans relationship to the government.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:39:32 GMT
This is an erroneous debate. Seems like you are okay with every wrong thing the government ever does because of your false interpretation of The Bible, Jesus also predicted false and corrupt government, if you can’t see we are in that stage than something is not right. Yes! And some Christians even will be put to death Jesus sais. Luke 21:16-19 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And Paul and other disciples were put in jail by the authority. Acts 5:18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. And the authority even beheaded John the Baptist because they just felt like it! Matthew 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. I think I better quit talking about authorities. I'm getting mad over this Read the last two posts of mine. You do realize that when Paul was writing this letter in Romans about submitting to the governing authorities, Nero Ceasar was in charge right? One of the most tyrannical murderous Christian killing emperors in history.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 7:40:04 GMT
I know what it says but I'm saying you are misreading it. And you didn't answer the question where I asked if you're in support of when the government gave innocent people the death penalty. But let's use Romans for a bit.. So the two verses above state that if someone does evil then we don't punish them for it but instead live in peace with everyone. Jesus didn't recompense the woman who was to be stoned and instead lived peacefully with them all. Now these verses We are not to avenge it says. And avenge means to cause someone harm in return for something bad they did. Because the only one to avenge is God it says. We are told to do good to them instead. So if someone murders our family member we do not avenge them it says. Instead it says to show what to the enemy? Only give him good in return. Also authorities kill innocent beings. The authority killed Jesus among many innocent people. You think they won't be punished for this? They will! , again Elizabeth, avenge not yourselves as in YOU individually are not to avenge yourself, YOU are not supposed to repay evil for evil. I know this because in Romans 13, the chapter LITERALLY right after that one Paul says God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil. Do authorities kill innocent people? Yes. Saul who was ordained by God like Paul says all governing authorities are and he abused his authority to become a wicked murderous king. Yes, God punished him for this. It doesn't mean that Saul didn't have the right to punish genuine evil with the sword. Authorities killing innocent beings on purpose is not punishing evil. You say that only God can can avenge evil? How do you think he does this and through what means? Oh right, Paul says that God has given the ruling authorities the power of the sword to punish evildoers, huh funny thing. By your logic we shouldn't put criminals in prison either because that is avenging evil and only God can do that. Do, I support a government that gives innocent people the death penalty? Well, if it was an honest mistake then yes. You act like the United States government just gives criminals the death penalty knowing full well that they are innocent. These people given the death penalty are given their day in court and tried by a jury of their peers with the evidence standard being to the level of beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence is weighed and the jury makes a decision based on the evidence. This is the fairest system yet devised by mankind to try people. Mistakes are inevitable but rare and the mistakes seem to be something that God is willing to risk. If I am misreading what is obviously and plainly written in English for all to see than do tell me how I am misreading it and what you think it says. No, God punishes them Himself. In hell. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 Remember...Cain killed Abel. God protected Cain and planted a curse on people. Anyone to hurt Cain will suffer God's vengeance. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Genesis 4:15
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:54:18 GMT
, again Elizabeth, avenge not yourselves as in YOU individually are not to avenge yourself, YOU are not supposed to repay evil for evil. I know this because in Romans 13, the chapter LITERALLY right after that one Paul says God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil. Do authorities kill innocent people? Yes. Saul who was ordained by God like Paul says all governing authorities are and he abused his authority to become a wicked murderous king. Yes, God punished him for this. It doesn't mean that Saul didn't have the right to punish genuine evil with the sword. Authorities killing innocent beings on purpose is not punishing evil. You say that only God can can avenge evil? How do you think he does this and through what means? Oh right, Paul says that God has given the ruling authorities the power of the sword to punish evildoers, huh funny thing. By your logic we shouldn't put criminals in prison either because that is avenging evil and only God can do that. Do, I support a government that gives innocent people the death penalty? Well, if it was an honest mistake then yes. You act like the United States government just gives criminals the death penalty knowing full well that they are innocent. These people given the death penalty are given their day in court and tried by a jury of their peers with the evidence standard being to the level of beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence is weighed and the jury makes a decision based on the evidence. This is the fairest system yet devised by mankind to try people. Mistakes are inevitable but rare and the mistakes seem to be something that God is willing to risk. If I am misreading what is obviously and plainly written in English for all to see than do tell me how I am misreading it and what you think it says. No, God punishes them Himself. In hell. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 Remember...Cain killed Abel. God protected Cain and planted a curse on people. Anyone to hurt Cain will suffer God's vengeance. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Genesis 4:15 , now you're using the Old Testament. Well here's some verses in the Old Testament for your consumption. Exodus 21:12 "Whoever strikes a person so that he dies must be put to death. " biblehub.com/exodus/21-12.htm Or Genesis 9:5-6 "5 And surely I will require the life of any man or beast by whose hand your lifeblood is shed. I will demand an accounting from anyone who takes the life of his fellow man: 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed; for in His own image God has made mankind." biblehub.com/genesis/9-5.htm and biblehub.com/genesis/9-6.htmYou haven't answered my question though Elizabeth. If Paul is not giving the government the right to kill evildoers than what is your interpretation of Romans 13:1-7 and how do you justify it regarding what it plainly says.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 8:07:49 GMT
No, God punishes them Himself. In hell. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 Remember...Cain killed Abel. God protected Cain and planted a curse on people. Anyone to hurt Cain will suffer God's vengeance. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Genesis 4:15 , now you're using the Old Testament. Well here's some verses in the Old Testament for your consumption. Exodus 21:12 "Whoever strikes a person so that he dies must be put to death. " biblehub.com/exodus/21-12.htm Or Genesis 9:5-6 "5 And surely I will require the life of any man or beast by whose hand your lifeblood is shed. I will demand an accounting from anyone who takes the life of his fellow man: 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed; for in His own image God has made mankind." biblehub.com/genesis/9-5.htm and biblehub.com/genesis/9-6.htmYou haven't answered my question though Elizabeth. If Paul is not giving the government the right to kill evildoers than what is your interpretation of Romans 13:1-7 and how do you justify it regarding what it plainly says. "And surely I will require..."
Let only God require it no one else.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 8:20:31 GMT
, now you're using the Old Testament. Well here's some verses in the Old Testament for your consumption. Exodus 21:12 "Whoever strikes a person so that he dies must be put to death. " biblehub.com/exodus/21-12.htm Or Genesis 9:5-6 "5 And surely I will require the life of any man or beast by whose hand your lifeblood is shed. I will demand an accounting from anyone who takes the life of his fellow man: 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed; for in His own image God has made mankind." biblehub.com/genesis/9-5.htm and biblehub.com/genesis/9-6.htmYou haven't answered my question though Elizabeth. If Paul is not giving the government the right to kill evildoers than what is your interpretation of Romans 13:1-7 and how do you justify it regarding what it plainly says. "And surely I will require..."
Let only God require it no one else. In this you have ignored what is said in Exodus 21:12 and what was the literal law bequeathed by God to Israel the country that he created that that anyone who murders someone must by law be put to death. You are also ignoring what was said right after Genesis 5 in Genesis six that whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed. You can try to weasel out of that by saying, "but the new covenant" but as I've shown in Genesis 13:1-7 God endorses the death penalty even today. Once again you have not told me what you think God giving the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers means other than what is obviously implied by a literal reading of the English language. So please do tell me.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 8:26:45 GMT
"And surely I will require..."
Let only God require it no one else. In this you have ignored what is said in Exodus 21:12 and what was the literal law bequeathed by God to Israel the country that he created that that anyone who murders someone must by law be put to death. You are also ignoring what was said right after Genesis 5 in Genesis six that whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed. You can try to weasel out of that by saying, "but the new covenant" but as I've shown in Genesis 13:1-7 God endorses the death penalty even today. Once again you have not told me what you think God giving the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers means other than what is obviously implied by a literal reading of the English language. So please do tell me. God made this law in OT and removed killing of people in NT. I did not ignore this fact! If this was Judaism not Christianity then I'd support killings but this is NT now.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 8:31:24 GMT
In this you have ignored what is said in Exodus 21:12 and what was the literal law bequeathed by God to Israel the country that he created that that anyone who murders someone must by law be put to death. You are also ignoring what was said right after Genesis 5 in Genesis six that whoever sheds the blood of man, by man his blood will be shed. You can try to weasel out of that by saying, "but the new covenant" but as I've shown in Genesis 13:1-7 God endorses the death penalty even today. Once again you have not told me what you think God giving the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers means other than what is obviously implied by a literal reading of the English language. So please do tell me. God made this law in OT and removed killing of people in NT. I did not ignore this fact! If this was Judaism not Christianity then I'd support killings but this is NT now. Then why did you retort using the Old Testament? And as I've shown in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7 God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers. I am still what you think that means other than what it objectively means in the English language. You're argument again is, "but the New Testament" but I've shown you exactly where it says the death penalty is approved by God in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 8:47:01 GMT
God made this law in OT and removed killing of people in NT. I did not ignore this fact! If this was Judaism not Christianity then I'd support killings but this is NT now. Then why did you retort using the Old Testament? And as I've shown in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7 God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers. I am still what you think that means other than what it objectively means in the English language. You're argument again is, "but the New Testament" but I've shown you exactly where it says the death penalty is approved by God in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7. It's not approved. When did Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles stone anyone or take anyone to court to be given the death penalty? Never. Not even one time. And authorities are not ministers of God since they're not even Christian. Those verses speak of other high powers and ministers of God.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 9:00:44 GMT
Then why did you retort using the Old Testament? And as I've shown in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7 God gave the governing authorities the power of the sword to punish evil doers. I am still what you think that means other than what it objectively means in the English language. You're argument again is, "but the New Testament" but I've shown you exactly where it says the death penalty is approved by God in the New Testament Romans 13:1-7. It's not approved. When did Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles stone anyone or take anyone to court to be given the death penalty? Never. Not even one time. And authorities are not ministers of God since they're not even Christian. Those verses speak of other high powers and ministers of God. When were Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles governing authorities? They weren't. Other high powers and ministers of God? What other high powers and ministers of God? Also why do the vast majority of translations say, "governing authorities?" Since you evidently did not read this the first time, read this link biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm This link shows the Romans 13:1 the first verse of the seven I mentioned in many translations, and do you know what they say? Submit to the governing authorities, submit to the power of the state, submit to the governing authorities and so on. Romans 13:3-4 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.… God is clearly talking about rulers here. biblehub.com/romans/13-3.htm
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 9:08:08 GMT
It's not approved. When did Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles stone anyone or take anyone to court to be given the death penalty? Never. Not even one time. And authorities are not ministers of God since they're not even Christian. Those verses speak of other high powers and ministers of God. When were Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles governing authorities? They weren't. Other high powers and ministers of God? What other high powers and ministers of God? Also why do the vast majority of translations say, "governing authorities?" Since you evidently did not read this the first time, read this link biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm This link shows the Romans 13:1 the first verse of the seven I mentioned in many translations, and do you know what they say? Submit to the governing authorities, submit to the power of the state, submit to the governing authorities and so on. Romans 13:3-4 Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 for rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. 4For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.… God is clearly talking about rulers here. biblehub.com/romans/13-3.htmSubmit also doesn't mean approve or support their multiple sins. And they're not ministers of God! They do not seek to do God's will. Christians must beware of them. We only submit as in not to wrong. But we don't submit to if they tell us to do wrong nor do we support their kills. They're against Christians and God in general. Jesus and the apostles were beaten or killed by their sins. You can praise them if you wish. I won't. We'll just agree to disagree.
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 9:10:47 GMT
Original King James Bible (AV 1611) [2] — Let euery soule bee subiect vnto the higher powers: For there is no power but of God. The powers that be, are ordeined of God. John Etheridge Peshitta-Aramaic NT (1849) — LET every soul to the powers of dominion be subject. For there is no power that is not from Aloha, and the powers that be, of Aloha are they instituted. James Murdock Peshitta-Aramaic NT (1852) — Let every soul be subject to the authorities of magistracy. For there is no authority which is not from God: and the authorities which exist, are established by God.
Man if these translations lead you into the conclusion of government than I have to question your sanity
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