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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 5, 2018 22:09:51 GMT
For or against and why?
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 6:13:45 GMT
Against. People are sometimes proven of their innocence, and you cannot give back a person’s life. However, given that jails often harden people who go into them, and that some people come out worse than when they went in, there should be more options. From the movies I’ve seen, what occurs in some jails is you either have to join a gang to survive or worse. I’ve also watched videos about people who have been in jail and there is more crime in there than there is outside, how do you expect them to get better?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 6:18:02 GMT
That was an instance of Jesus being merciful to someone who deserved to die under Jewish law which indecently was created by God himself. You use the term that shalt not kill as your reasoning but as stated earlier thou shalt not murder is what the original Hebrew says. We also know that this is the case because God in the Old Testament (in which the ten commandments were written) in his law commanded the death penalty for many crimes, the aformentioned adultery being one of them. He also commanded his children to slaughter whole tribes for their sin. Also in the New Testament the Apostle Paul explicitly endorses the death penalty. Romans 13:1-7 King James Version (KJV) 13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
God gives governments the power of the sword, that is the power to kill people, to execute wrath on those who do evil. But you have monarchy’s like Saudi Arabia who will cut your head off for preaching the gospel. Surely you wouldn’t say God have them the power to execute wrath on them for doing evil. Yes, there are corrupt rulers in the world and corrupt governments. They are still ordained by God in the same way that Saul was ordained by God and became a vicious tyrant. To remind you what Paul said Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Every government is ordained by God, even Saudi Arabia. You are supposed to submit to even these governing authorities unless you are forced to sin or are forbidden to spread the gospel. Either way it doesn't matter; what Paul is describing is what a healthy government should do and that includes the power to kill as punishment for doing evil (spreading the gospel is not evil) as clearly stated by Paul in the Bible.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 6:18:10 GMT
Yes, I take it literally as did Jesus. Example. A woman in New Testament was given the dealth penalty and was about to be stoned to death. But Jesus saw this and interfered. He did not let them give her the death penalty. That was an instance of Jesus being merciful to someone who deserved to die under Jewish law which indecently was created by God himself. You use the term that shalt not kill as your reasoning but as stated earlier thou shalt not murder is what the original Hebrew says. We also know that this is the case because God in the Old Testament (in which the ten commandments were written) in his law commanded the death penalty for many crimes, the aformentioned adultery being one of them. He also commanded his children to slaughter whole tribes for their sin. Also in the New Testament the Apostle Paul explicitly endorses the death penalty. Romans 13:1-7 King James Version (KJV) 13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
God gives governments the power of the sword, that is the power to kill people, to execute wrath on those who do evil. Yes, she deserved to die as all sinners are deservant of death. But it's not for us to execute but for God to. God stopped that old testament stoning Himself so it's no longer practiced. He didn't attend any stonings nor force people to do them and neither did the apostles. It's no longer eye for an eye or stonings. Or your church does stonings?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 26, 2018 6:20:55 GMT
But you have monarchy’s like Saudi Arabia who will cut your head off for preaching the gospel. Surely you wouldn’t say God have them the power to execute wrath on them for doing evil. Yes, there are corrupt rulers in the world and corrupt governments. They are still ordained by God in the same way that Saul was ordained by God and became a vicious tyrant. To remind you what Paul said Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Every government is ordained by God, even Saudi Arabia. You are supposed to submit to even these governing authorities unless you are forced to sin or are forbidden to spread the gospel. Either way it doesn't matter; what Paul is describing is what a healthy government should do and that includes the power to kill as punishment for doing evil (spreading the gospel is not evil) as clearly stated by Paul in the Bible. Do you believe the world has any ‘healthy governments’ today?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 6:20:56 GMT
That was an instance of Jesus being merciful to someone who deserved to die under Jewish law which indecently was created by God himself. You use the term that shalt not kill as your reasoning but as stated earlier thou shalt not murder is what the original Hebrew says. We also know that this is the case because God in the Old Testament (in which the ten commandments were written) in his law commanded the death penalty for many crimes, the aformentioned adultery being one of them. He also commanded his children to slaughter whole tribes for their sin. Also in the New Testament the Apostle Paul explicitly endorses the death penalty. Romans 13:1-7 King James Version (KJV) 13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
God gives governments the power of the sword, that is the power to kill people, to execute wrath on those who do evil. Yes, she deserved to die as all sinners are deservant of death. But it's not for us to execute but for God to. God stopped that old testament stoning Himself so it's no longer practiced. He didn't attend any stonings nor force people to do them and neither did the apostles. It's no longer eye for an eye or stonings. Or your church does stonings? No, but my government kills people for murder. And as stated by Romans 13:4 the Bible endorses it.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 6:24:25 GMT
Yes, she deserved to die as all sinners are deservant of death. But it's not for us to execute but for God to. God stopped that old testament stoning Himself so it's no longer practiced. He didn't attend any stonings nor force people to do them and neither did the apostles. It's no longer eye for an eye or stonings. Or your church does stonings? No, but my government kills people for murder. And as stated by Romans 13:4 the Bible endorses it. The sword part? You know God said if we kill by the sword we should die by it too. Peter even cut off someone's ear with a sword. Jesus was not happy about it at all and wanted the sword put away instantly.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 6:25:08 GMT
Yes, there are corrupt rulers in the world and corrupt governments. They are still ordained by God in the same way that Saul was ordained by God and became a vicious tyrant. To remind you what Paul said Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Every government is ordained by God, even Saudi Arabia. You are supposed to submit to even these governing authorities unless you are forced to sin or are forbidden to spread the gospel. Either way it doesn't matter; what Paul is describing is what a healthy government should do and that includes the power to kill as punishment for doing evil (spreading the gospel is not evil) as clearly stated by Paul in the Bible. Do you believe the world has any ‘healthy governments’ today? None of them are perfect, but yes there are some that do better than others especially in the Western world. Regardless we are debating the death penalty which the Bible clearly endorses to punish and avenge evil.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 6:29:27 GMT
No, but my government kills people for murder. And as stated by Romans 13:4 the Bible endorses it. The sword part? You know God said if we kill by the sword we should die by it too. Peter even cut off someone's ear with a sword. Jesus was not happy about it at all and wanted the sword put away instantly. Yes, people are not supposed to kill other people. Peter was about to murder a Roman soldier. You keep confusing interpersonal relations between individuals with governments. Governments have the power to kill people for doing evil, individuals do not. God clearly gives the government the power of the sword which means the same thing in Romans as it did when Jesus told Peter not to do it, killing people. I repeat Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 6:37:27 GMT
The sword part? You know God said if we kill by the sword we should die by it too. Peter even cut off someone's ear with a sword. Jesus was not happy about it at all and wanted the sword put away instantly. Yes, people are not supposed to kill other people. Peter was about to murder a Roman soldier. You keep confusing interpersonal relations between individuals with governments. Governments have the power to kill people for doing evil, individuals are not. God clearly gives the government the power of the sword which means the same thing in Romans as it did when Jesus told Peter not to do it, killing people. I repeat Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Paul just says to do good. Then he says if we do evil to beware because we'll be punished for sin. Governments are not there to punish sin. God is there to punish sin. If they did then liars, fornicators, and others would be in jail. And as just10sp pointed out the government killed many innocent people by death penalty. They don't know for 100% if they're killing an innocent person. I do not support all their wrongful death penalties which they've done and I'm sure God doesn't either Shrug
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 6:44:54 GMT
Yes, people are not supposed to kill other people. Peter was about to murder a Roman soldier. You keep confusing interpersonal relations between individuals with governments. Governments have the power to kill people for doing evil, individuals are not. God clearly gives the government the power of the sword which means the same thing in Romans as it did when Jesus told Peter not to do it, killing people. I repeat Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Paul just says to do good. Then he says if we do evil to beware because we'll be punished for sin. Governments are not there to punish sin. God is there to punish sin. If they did then liars, fornicators, and others would be in jail. And as just10sp pointed out the government killed many innocent people by death penalty. They don't know for 100% if they're killing an innocent person. I do not support all their wrongful death penalties which they've done and I'm sure God doesn't either No . Read the verse. The entire verse is talking about governments who God has given the power of the sword to punish evil. Here's the entire verse in its context. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=KJV The preceding verses make clear that the "he" in Romans 13:4 refers to rulers or the government. The Bible literally tells you your position on the death penalty is wrong and by opposing the death penalty you are claiming to be more moral than God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 6:50:44 GMT
Paul just says to do good. Then he says if we do evil to beware because we'll be punished for sin. Governments are not there to punish sin. God is there to punish sin. If they did then liars, fornicators, and others would be in jail. And as just10sp pointed out the government killed many innocent people by death penalty. They don't know for 100% if they're killing an innocent person. I do not support all their wrongful death penalties which they've done and I'm sure God doesn't either No . Read the verse. The entire verse is talking about governments who God has given the power of the sword to punish evil. Here's the entire verse in its context. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=KJV The preceding verses make clear that the "he" in Romans 13:4 refers to rulers or the government. The Bible literally tells you your position on the death penalty is wrong and by opposing the death penalty you are claiming to be more moral than God. No, I don't see the word government in the verse and the governments don't work for God. And Jesus stopped the death penalty as would I. So you are ok with the innocent people the US gave the death penalty to?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:00:56 GMT
No . Read the verse. The entire verse is talking about governments who God has given the power of the sword to punish evil. Here's the entire verse in its context. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=KJV The preceding verses make clear that the "he" in Romans 13:4 refers to rulers or the government. The Bible literally tells you your position on the death penalty is wrong and by opposing the death penalty you are claiming to be more moral than God. No, I don't see the word government in the verse and the governments don't work for God. And Jesus stopped the death penalty as would I. So you are ok with the innocent people the US gave the death penalty to? Elizabeth, that is a very lame response. Look at Romans 13:6 and how it is translated across all the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-6.htm Yes its talking about governments. You pay taxes to governments. In fact, look at how Romans 13:1 is translated across the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm In caseyou don't click on the link for whatever reason let me tell you what most of these say verbatem as if copied from one another. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Yes the word governing authorities is used. The death penalty is endorsed by the Bible whether you want it to be or not.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,694
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 7:01:45 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 7:16:05 GMT
No, I don't see the word government in the verse and the governments don't work for God. And Jesus stopped the death penalty as would I. So you are ok with the innocent people the US gave the death penalty to? Elizabeth, that is a very lame response. Look at Romans 13:6 and how it is translated across all the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-6.htm Yes its talking about governments. You pay taxes to governments. In fact, look at how Romans 13:1 is translated across the Bibles. biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm In caseyou don't click on the link for whatever reason let me tell you what most of these say verbatem as if copied from one another. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Yes the word governing authorities is used. The death penalty is endorsed by the Bible whether you want it to be or not. I know what it says but I'm saying you are misreading it. And you didn't answer the question where I asked if you're in support of when the government gave innocent people the death penalty. But let's use Romans for a bit.. So the two verses above state that if someone does evil then we don't punish them for it but instead live in peace with everyone. Jesus didn't recompense the woman who was to be stoned and instead lived peacefully with them all. Now these verses We are not to avenge it says. And avenge means to cause someone harm in return for something bad they did. Because the only one to avenge is God it says. We are told to do good to them instead. So if someone murders our family member we do not avenge them it says. Instead it says to show what to the enemy? Only give him good in return. Also authorities kill innocent beings. The authority killed Jesus among many innocent people. You think they won't be punished for this? They will!
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Post by just10sp on Aug 26, 2018 7:19:08 GMT
This is an erroneous debate. Seems like you are okay with every wrong thing the government ever does because of your false interpretation of The Bible, Jesus also predicted false and corrupt government, if you can’t see we are in that stage than something is not right.
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