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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 24, 2022 21:20:39 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion":
Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 24, 2022 23:31:15 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. philosophy means the love of knowledge, science is knowledge, thus the love of science is philosophy. Scientists are philosophers.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 25, 2022 16:24:04 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. philosophy means the love of knowledge, science is knowledge, thus the love of science is philosophy. Scientists are philosophers. Funny. This might be true. The problem is – we don't know anything, and we don't even know that we don't know anything.
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Post by thesageofmainstreet on Jan 25, 2022 19:09:10 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. The University Is the Cradle of Confusion"Dawkins' main argument" should, and must, be written "Dawkins's main argument." When pronounced, this academic grammatical monstrosity will lead people to thinking his name is Dawkin. The converse of this error shows up in your misspelling Hawking as "Hawkings." Academics despise practical value, which is why their jargon is dysfunctional.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 25, 2022 21:01:02 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. The University Is the Cradle of Confusion"Dawkins' main argument" should, and must, be written "Dawkins's main argument." When pronounced, this academic grammatical monstrosity will lead people to thinking his name is Dawkin. The converse of this error shows up in your misspelling Hawking as "Hawkings." Academics despise practical value, which is why their jargon is dysfunctional. This notification is really helpful. I really appreciate this. By the way, the original article signed as "...Dawkins..." without using an apostrophe. www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/DawkinsGodDelusionPlantingaReview.pdf
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 26, 2022 2:09:31 GMT
Trust neither. Evaluate their arguments and claims, see if they are supported by evidence and logical deduction, and decide for yourself. Scientists and philosophers are both still human and humans are prone to error. Some philosophers get things right that scientists get wrong and vice versa. There's also the fact that both are different fields of study that sometimes overlap in their content but are in separate spheres of knowledge that each has their limits. Science cant go beyond its parameters and teach us about morality, metaphysics, theology, how to live and the like and philosophy has its own limits as well. Trust what no man says at face value and test what they're saying by various objective means and see if it holds up. This is called critical thinking.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 26, 2022 2:29:04 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. Now that I've read the first post you've made and not the just the title I'm going to elaborate on my previous post in response to you. What the Catholic is saying here is not that we should listen to philosophy over science or even the other way around. He is criticizing Dawkins for writing a whole book in which the chief arguments found within are philosophical and not scientific despite knowing bugger all about philosophy and thus doing an atrocious job at it. He is criticizing Dawkins for veering from his lane and crashing hard. This is a common criticism of Dawkins actually. My atheist philosophy professor in college lambasted Dawkins for being retarded at philosophy and even being purposely disingenuous in what he asserted. The example he gave was that apparently in his book (I haven't read it) he straw manned to an absolutely abominable degree Thomas Aquinas's cosmological argument for God to the point to where he had to have been purposely dishonest in doing so.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 26, 2022 11:38:39 GMT
There's a quote from a religious philosopher Alvin Plantinga's article called "The Dawkins Confusion": Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins' main argument seriously.
So, Plantinga seriously thinks we should trust more to some philosophers' thoughts more, than to the scientists' lab and other words? I can't see why the science is taken at so plain level. If Stephen Hawkings said something, I think people listened to him, because he was a scientists. And usually people listen to them who does something, not just think. Now that I've read the first post you've made and not the just the title I'm going to elaborate on my previous post in response to you. What the Catholic is saying here is not that we should listen to philosophy over science or even the other way around. He is criticizing Dawkins for writing a whole book in which the chief arguments found within are philosophical and not scientific despite knowing bugger all about philosophy and thus doing an atrocious job at it. He is criticizing Dawkins for veering from his lane and crashing hard. This is a common criticism of Dawkins actually. My atheist philosophy professor in college lambasted Dawkins for being retarded at philosophy and even being purposely disingenuous in what he asserted. The example he gave was that apparently in his book (I haven't read it) he straw manned to an absolutely abominable degree Thomas Aquinas's cosmological argument for God to the point to where he had to have been purposely dishonest in doing so. Firstly, I agree with you about we have trust neigher - it's one of the cleverest thought I've seen lately. The second, is that Plantinga is not a Catholic at all. He's a Kalvinist. (That's why his name is correlating with that: (K)Alvin.) The third, well, I may agree that Dawkins isn't a good example, but there are more others like Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Deneth, Roger Penrose (the last one's got a Nobel prize lately). And why I don't think that Dawking has made something criminally bad, because why (some) philosophers are acting like a closed sect? If they are about to say somethig about their own work, so they have to talk, not to criticize every nosy guys.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 27, 2022 21:37:29 GMT
philosophy means the love of knowledge, science is knowledge, thus the love of science is philosophy. Scientists are philosophers. Funny. This might be true. The problem is – we don't know anything, and we don't even know that we don't know anything. But if we know this then we know something.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 28, 2022 14:46:58 GMT
Funny. This might be true. The problem is – we don't know anything, and we don't even know that we don't know anything. But if we know this then we know something. I think it's true, while there is another problem may appear like you know – one problem leads to two or more. a. We don't know anything b. We don't know that we don't know anything c. We know something d. What is something: e. If I know the unknown do I know whom I know? f. If I know something how do I know that I – know – about the something? The word something is not so representative as it may be. It looks like this: – what is it? – something – something? – something – ... – well... how do you know this is something, not nothing? – I don't – You don't? – That's right – Then you cannot say "you know that it is something", you don't know it – If I wouldn't know, I couldn't be able to say anything about it – Wrong. You would be. You can do it whatever you want, because lying is always accessible – I'm unaware of this feature – It doesn't really matter, it's additional to any discourse... – How did you figure this out except for having it known previously...
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Clovis Merovingian
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Elder
Posts: 2,727
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Country: My State and my Region are my country
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Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 29, 2022 9:04:02 GMT
Now that I've read the first post you've made and not the just the title I'm going to elaborate on my previous post in response to you. What the Catholic is saying here is not that we should listen to philosophy over science or even the other way around. He is criticizing Dawkins for writing a whole book in which the chief arguments found within are philosophical and not scientific despite knowing bugger all about philosophy and thus doing an atrocious job at it. He is criticizing Dawkins for veering from his lane and crashing hard. This is a common criticism of Dawkins actually. My atheist philosophy professor in college lambasted Dawkins for being retarded at philosophy and even being purposely disingenuous in what he asserted. The example he gave was that apparently in his book (I haven't read it) he straw manned to an absolutely abominable degree Thomas Aquinas's cosmological argument for God to the point to where he had to have been purposely dishonest in doing so. Firstly, I agree with you about we have trust neigher - it's one of the cleverest thought I've seen lately. The second, is that Plantinga is not a Catholic at all. He's a Kalvinist. (That's why his name is correlating with that: (K)Alvin.) The third, well, I may agree that Dawkins isn't a good example, but there are more others like Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Deneth, Roger Penrose (the last one's got a Nobel prize lately). And why I don't think that Dawking has made something criminally bad, because why (some) philosophers are acting like a closed sect? If they are about to say somethig about their own work, so they have to talk, not to criticize every nosy guys. I think that philosophers are a justifiably sensitive bunch. Among non philosophers, especially scientists, there is an impression that philosophy is a junk discipline that is an exercise in hot air do to its material's inability to be tested for objective conclusions in the same way as say, science or math. As I once cynically (and rather ignorantly) put it, "it's just a bunch of people intellectually jerking themselves and each other off." There is a belief among scientists that science will one day find the answers to the questions that philosophy asks and will make the whole field obsolete. All of these characterizations of philosophy are unfair and patently ridiculous in my opinion, but this arrogant attitude makes many scientists think, "hey, I can do that. This isn't that hard," and jump into deep philosophical discussions in a shallow and subpar manner. My worst subject is Math. I would be an arrogant fool to dive deep and headlong into advanced mathematics, putting in the barest of effort to learn about these things, and talk nonsense about them to the face of mathematicians and think that my perspective is as valid as theirs because, "math is a junk subject anyways." But this is exactly what these scientists do with philosophy. And if these scientists go in and talk absolute bullocks about a subject they know little to nothing about then it is well within the rights of those actually knowledgeable about the subject to call them out on their stupidity.
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Post by MAYA-EL on Jan 30, 2022 0:43:11 GMT
Firstly, I agree with you about we have trust neigher - it's one of the cleverest thought I've seen lately. The second, is that Plantinga is not a Catholic at all. He's a Kalvinist. (That's why his name is correlating with that: (K)Alvin.) The third, well, I may agree that Dawkins isn't a good example, but there are more others like Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Deneth, Roger Penrose (the last one's got a Nobel prize lately). And why I don't think that Dawking has made something criminally bad, because why (some) philosophers are acting like a closed sect? If they are about to say somethig about their own work, so they have to talk, not to criticize every nosy guys. I think that philosophers are a justifiably sensitive bunch. Among non philosophers, especially scientists, there is an impression that philosophy is a junk discipline that is an exercise in hot air do to its material's inability to be tested for objective conclusions in the same way as say, science or math. As I once cynically (and rather ignorantly) put it, "it's just a bunch of people intellectually jerking themselves and each other off." There is a belief among scientists that science will one day find the answers to the questions that philosophy asks and will make the whole field obsolete. All of these characterizations of philosophy are unfair and patently ridiculous in my opinion, but this arrogant attitude makes many scientists think, "hey, I can do that. This isn't that hard," and jump into deep philosophical discussions in a shallow and subpar manner. My worst subject is Math. I would be an arrogant fool to dive deep and headlong into advanced mathematics, putting in the barest of effort to learn about these things, and talk nonsense about them to the face of mathematicians and think that my perspective is as valid as theirs because, "math is a junk subject anyways." But this is exactly what these scientists do with philosophy. And if these scientists go in and talk absolute bullocks about a subject they know little to nothing about then it is well within the rights of those actually knowledgeable about the subject to call them out on their stupidity. I would agree with you but what we have today is a bunch of privileged no wisdom ego driven people that play the game of who can quote the most dead philosophers game which is nothing like real philosophy used to be .
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 30, 2022 17:54:36 GMT
Firstly, I agree with you about we have trust neigher - it's one of the cleverest thought I've seen lately. The second, is that Plantinga is not a Catholic at all. He's a Kalvinist. (That's why his name is correlating with that: (K)Alvin.) The third, well, I may agree that Dawkins isn't a good example, but there are more others like Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Deneth, Roger Penrose (the last one's got a Nobel prize lately). And why I don't think that Dawking has made something criminally bad, because why (some) philosophers are acting like a closed sect? If they are about to say somethig about their own work, so they have to talk, not to criticize every nosy guys. I think that philosophers are a justifiably sensitive bunch. Among non philosophers, especially scientists, there is an impression that philosophy is a junk discipline that is an exercise in hot air do to its material's inability to be tested for objective conclusions in the same way as say, science or math. As I once cynically (and rather ignorantly) put it, "it's just a bunch of people intellectually jerking themselves and each other off." There is a belief among scientists that science will one day find the answers to the questions that philosophy asks and will make the whole field obsolete. All of these characterizations of philosophy are unfair and patently ridiculous in my opinion, but this arrogant attitude makes many scientists think, "hey, I can do that. This isn't that hard," and jump into deep philosophical discussions in a shallow and subpar manner. My worst subject is Math. I would be an arrogant fool to dive deep and headlong into advanced mathematics, putting in the barest of effort to learn about these things, and talk nonsense about them to the face of mathematicians and think that my perspective is as valid as theirs because, "math is a junk subject anyways." But this is exactly what these scientists do with philosophy. And if these scientists go in and talk absolute bullocks about a subject they know little to nothing about then it is well within the rights of those actually knowledgeable about the subject to call them out on their stupidity. This is a really good and decent argument. Edgar Allan Poe had quite similar critique arguments against mathematical logic. It's also sad to hear about math. I don't understand math either. I guess I would if I had driven the different way. I preferred reading literature and comics. I think it's not a bad thing. Just think about it: an average person also think that he can (like "YES WE CAN!") or that he's able to do it, but a honest scientist never has any over-ego level of selfishness. My opinion is: it's bad that there are differentiation between people. It doesn't seem to be democratic. All people are equal. And the ones who disagree with it usually do everything to destroy anyone who disagree with them.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Feb 2, 2022 21:54:35 GMT
But if we know this then we know something. I think it's true, while there is another problem may appear like you know – one problem leads to two or more. a. We don't know anything b. We don't know that we don't know anything c. We know something d. What is something: e. If I know the unknown do I know whom I know? f. If I know something how do I know that I – know – about the something? The word something is not so representative as it may be. It looks like this: – what is it? – something – something? – something – ... – well... how do you know this is something, not nothing? – I don't – You don't? – That's right – Then you cannot say "you know that it is something", you don't know it – If I wouldn't know, I couldn't be able to say anything about it – Wrong. You would be. You can do it whatever you want, because lying is always accessible – I'm unaware of this feature – It doesn't really matter, it's additional to any discourse... – How did you figure this out except for having it known previously... 1. If you know the unknown you know the limits of what is known thus know something. 2. If you know something and you know something about said something then "something" and "knowing" equate.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 2, 2022 22:24:10 GMT
I think it's true, while there is another problem may appear like you know – one problem leads to two or more. a. We don't know anything b. We don't know that we don't know anything c. We know something d. What is something: e. If I know the unknown do I know whom I know? f. If I know something how do I know that I – know – about the something? The word something is not so representative as it may be. It looks like this: – what is it? – something – something? – something – ... – well... how do you know this is something, not nothing? – I don't – You don't? – That's right – Then you cannot say "you know that it is something", you don't know it – If I wouldn't know, I couldn't be able to say anything about it – Wrong. You would be. You can do it whatever you want, because lying is always accessible – I'm unaware of this feature – It doesn't really matter, it's additional to any discourse... – How did you figure this out except for having it known previously... 1. If you know the unknown you know the limits of what is known thus know something. 2. If you know something and you know something about said something then "something" and "knowing" equate. I'm aware of 1 (it's a primary critique to Socrates "know thyself"), but I can't say I get the 2nd. I don't think these both equate, because if they were, then the 1st would be false.
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