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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Aug 16, 2021 22:55:41 GMT
1. If contradiction is unavoidable in conceptual knowledge then one cannot say "contradiction is unavoidable in conceptual knowledge" as this is a concept and if a concept then contradicts itself. Any words about the reality of being existing without contradiction is in itself a contradiction as conceptualization occurs therefore contradiction is a part of reality.
2. To say there is truth is to conceptualize knowledge existing as knowledge. Illusions are a subset of existence thus are existing and as existing are real in the respect they are derived from what is true. 2+2=5 may observe a contradiction yet this contradiction does not negate the fact that "2", "+", "=" and "5" exist.
3. To know reality as unsplit contradicts what you say in stating "knowing reality is futile".
4. To say all reduces to zero is to create a dichotomy with 1. To say all is nothing requires the dualism of all is something. To state all conceptual knowledge is imaginary is to create the dualism of non conceptual knowledge as real thus a contradiction occurs.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 17, 2021 17:40:58 GMT
There's too much semantics. I'd say the semantic overdose.
Conceptual structure comes from Kant's snooping. He was up to find what made us see things as we see them. Then were many those who tried to continue it. I could name the best but my own sympathy is to Quine. Let's say you see the world as abstractions, as recursions, and so on. Your objects have or have no size, they have their shape/form, etc. My worldview image can be different. I prefer the common sense along with logic. I don't believe any abstractions exist.
What is so important in your conceptual structure? – Your intentions. Some would say – your ontology, but that would be wrong. Why? We want see things as something we're seeing them, but this doesn't mean things are how we see them. We cannot imply it.
So when you're saying about contradictions inside the conceptual structure I wonder how can it be? This can be if your conceptual structure is the same as a formal system that is wrong. You're allowed to try to represent the CC, and at the same time it's not allowed to equate them.
Contradiction is a semantic category. It means you're saying more, than just p&~p. If I uttered something like a "round square", then I said two words which could considered as contradiction if we equated "round squares" with "p&~p" or the word "contradiction".
Any contradiction in your CC automatically leads to not being able to represent something of that.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Aug 18, 2021 23:35:56 GMT
There's too much semantics. I'd say the semantic overdose. Conceptual structure comes from Kant's snooping. He was up to find what made us see things as we see them. Then were many those who tried to continue it. I could name the best but my own sympathy is to Quine. Let's say you see the world as abstractions, as recursions, and so on. Your objects have or have no size, they have their shape/form, etc. My worldview image can be different. I prefer the common sense along with logic. I don't believe any abstractions exist. What is so important in your conceptual structure? – Your intentions. Some would say – your ontology, but that would be wrong. Why? We want see things as something we're seeing them, but this doesn't mean things are how we see them. We cannot imply it. So when you're saying about contradictions inside the conceptual structure I wonder how can it be? This can be if your conceptual structure is the same as a formal system that is wrong. You're allowed to try to represent the CC, and at the same time it's not allowed to equate them. Contradiction is a semantic category. It means you're saying more, than just p&~p. If I uttered something like a "round square", then I said two words which could considered as contradiction if we equated "round squares" with "p&~p" or the word "contradiction". Any contradiction in your CC automatically leads to not being able to represent something of that. If "intentions determine the angle of observation" then intentions determine the angle of observation which states that "intentions are an angle of observation"....
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 19, 2021 3:29:29 GMT
There's too much semantics. I'd say the semantic overdose. Conceptual structure comes from Kant's snooping. He was up to find what made us see things as we see them. Then were many those who tried to continue it. I could name the best but my own sympathy is to Quine. Let's say you see the world as abstractions, as recursions, and so on. Your objects have or have no size, they have their shape/form, etc. My worldview image can be different. I prefer the common sense along with logic. I don't believe any abstractions exist. What is so important in your conceptual structure? – Your intentions. Some would say – your ontology, but that would be wrong. Why? We want see things as something we're seeing them, but this doesn't mean things are how we see them. We cannot imply it. So when you're saying about contradictions inside the conceptual structure I wonder how can it be? This can be if your conceptual structure is the same as a formal system that is wrong. You're allowed to try to represent the CC, and at the same time it's not allowed to equate them. Contradiction is a semantic category. It means you're saying more, than just p&~p. If I uttered something like a "round square", then I said two words which could considered as contradiction if we equated "round squares" with "p&~p" or the word "contradiction". Any contradiction in your CC automatically leads to not being able to represent something of that. If "intentions determine the angle of observation" then intentions determine the angle of observation which states that "intentions are an angle of observation".... You're talking to yourself?
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Post by jonbain on Aug 19, 2021 13:17:06 GMT
This is correct insofar as you imply the idea as a "true contradiction". Though, a simpler way to say it would be: Perfect truth exists, because to say "perfect truth does not exist" would itself be a claim of a perfect truth.
However,
This does not follow because the phrase
has no logical structure to it. Its just a baseless claim. Your first point is the conclusion that contradiction is avoidable.
Moreover - your own typical error is to avoid empirical observation. There are plenty of examples of concepts without valid contradictions. Pythagoras' triangle being the example I found most inspiring.
You will continue to lack progress until you can apply your propositions into a proper geometrical framework. That entails the scary thought of computer algorithm in today's world. But its just so much easier to type words, though, isn't it?
Words can be uploaded without error easily, no matter how true they are; or not.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 19, 2021 14:13:25 GMT
This is correct insofar as you imply the idea as a "true contradiction". Though, a simpler way to say it would be: Perfect truth exists, because to say "perfect truth does not exist" would itself be a claim of a perfect truth. However, This does not follow because the phrase has no logical structure to it. Its just a baseless claim. Your first point is the conclusion that contradiction is avoidable. Moreover - your own typical error is to avoid empirical observation. There are plenty of examples of concepts without valid contradictions. Pythagoras' triangle being the example I found most inspiring. You will continue to lack progress until you can apply your propositions into a proper geometrical framework. That entails the scary thought of computer algorithm in today's world. But its just so much easier to type words, though, isn't it? Words can be uploaded without error easily, no matter how true they are; or not. I also find the example of Pythagoras's triangle to be the one – as a correspondence between thoughts and some models. Usually conceptual contradiction put to some ontology problem as it was done by Alexius Meinong, who said that even round squares existed. But Aristotle much earlier tied contradictions with theoretical tasks: 1) according to Aristotle the truth is when a positive claim corresponds to what is, and a negative to what isn't. ("A is B" is true when A is indeed B, and "A isn't B" is false if A is B.) 2) if there are two implications from theories (considered that a theory tells us about general things or about all the things) such as one is "A" and another one is "not A", then a theory is wrong At the same time I can find how a process of conceptualisation can be wrong, because conceptualising things we imagine or represent them, and their theoretisation is another lap. And this lap is just one of more further logical processes: we could consider that "A" would be false, and "not A" would be true, depending on what we would try to create, etc. Besides, I think that our ability of conceptualisation is the inner rational process, and it helps us to put senses and some other forms of impressions to some places. As I presume Kant wanted to find these basic categories, so his interpretation was that we had time & space as our basic matrix, and on the matrix the things appear as things. Without it (that matrix) we would see no things. (However, maybe Kant was right, but Schopenhauer said that this Kant theory couldn't explain some extra cases, for instance, by what can we understand the proper order of things.)
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Post by jonbain on Aug 19, 2021 22:01:12 GMT
Eugene 2.0This reminds me of the cataclysm I had with Wittgenstein. You see, there is a profound difference between how words are used and how mathematics works. The big error most philosophers make is to confuse the qualitative with the quantitative. We can sort of use words like math, via set theory, but words are slippery because they have transient and contextual meanings. Whereas maths is pure. Maths works like bricks or squares but words are like water, they defy precise relationships. This is why I always implore y'all to get stuck into programming algorithms so that your minds are forced into being able to think in the absolute maths required to do this. I would also implore you all to play music and write poetry for precisely the opposite reason. If we impose dualist thinking on words we easily end up in confusion - I can say: Using words: A is not B B is not C but it does not follow that A is C though it might. But in math A = C from the above premises A=-B B=-C A=C An apple is not a Bomb A Bomb is not a Cat but an apple is not a cat. Semantics and math are quite different in rule and in nature. Proving this earned me a big red 'F' and I departed that course without further frustration much to the chagrin of Mr Drip Oxford PhD. I then went on to write million character computer algorithms on the basis that I "do not understand logic".
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 20, 2021 4:05:16 GMT
jonbainJust one thing: recently I tried to solve few tasks from a textbook of general logic (that includes the set theory). There were similar tasks on the relations. And what I noticed that there are different relations exist (however, I don't know about the math, since I'm not a mathematician). Reflexive: for all x, xRx: "a human has the equal size of himself" Non-reflexive: not for all x, xRx: "a sentence doesn't always correspond its grammar" Irreflexive: there is no x such that, xRx "a mirror reflection doesn't show non-reversed image" Symmetry: for all x and y, xRy: "x equal to y" Non-symmetry: not for all x and y, xRy: "x is a brother of y" (some have sisters) Assymetry: there's no x and y such that, xRy: "x is strictly greater, than y" Transitive: for all x, y,and z, ((xRy)&(yRz))→(xRz): "x equals to y, y equals to z, then x equals to z" Non-transitive" not for all x, y, and z, ((xRy)&(yRz))→(xRz): "x eats y, y eats z, but not always x eats z" Intransitive: there's no x, y, and z such that ((xRy)&(yRz))→(xRz): The last example I'll illustrate with the set theory: If a, b, c, d... are some properties, and {a, b, c, ...}, {p, q, r, ...} are some sets, while "{a, b, c}Π{b, c, d}={b, c}" means Min function; "{a, b, c}U{b, c, d}={a, b, c, d}" means Max function; "~{b, c, d}={a, e, f, g...}" means Neg function; A, B, C,... – are sets (so, "A", for example, might be {a, b, c}), then: Intransitive: there's no x, y, and z such that ((xRy)&(yRz))→(xRz) can be written as: there's no A, B, C s.t. ((AΠB&(BΠC))→(AΠC), or (({a, b}Π{b, c})&({b, c}Π{c, d}))→({a, b}Π{c, d}) I don't know whether all of such relations can exist in math or not, but for me the power of formal semantics bases on an ability that we can imagine every possible things, properties, or relations, and take part of them to work. So, it's like there's a tablet that has all the possible things, properties, and relations, and to pick certain things, properties, or relations – is the same as to claim some rows and columns to be true (i.e. to claim them as a function for certain sets). Such an idea is always in math that each new dot y on the abscissa X that lays next to a dot x (on the same axis) has a greater value.
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Post by jonbain on Aug 20, 2021 9:35:46 GMT
Eugene 2.0That mostly just comes across as a foreign language to me. I cannot see the point in it. Much of it corresponds to the logic required to program in a computer language though, which would be an infinitely more useful tool, because the computer performs the logic millions of times faster than a person. And if there is an error in the logic it soon becomes apparent in most cases. Though resolving the error is not always so easy.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 20, 2021 11:36:20 GMT
Eugene 2.0 That mostly just comes across as a foreign language to me. I cannot see the point in it. Much of it corresponds to the logic required to program in a computer language though, which would be an infinitely more useful tool, because the computer performs the logic millions of times faster than a person. And if there is an error in the logic it soon becomes apparent in most cases. Though resolving the error is not always so easy. Being honestly, I can't say that I understand that conceptualization, however, there is a tip Kant's given us: about each of that impressions, feelings, and so on we have - we can ask a question - do they have a form or not? If they are - what is that? And if it has a form, it is true that this form is such that logic uses it? I mean can we maintain that material (of feelings, impressions, etc) as a relevant forms for logic? So, to answer this question is to make a theory about how impressions, feelings, and all kinds of phenomena find their forms, and to answer what logic is and what kind of material it uses? If to look at this question through a video you've recently posted - about the phenomenology.
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Post by jonbain on Aug 20, 2021 13:44:18 GMT
Eugene 2.0Well its about the final outcome. The computer language I refer to is about celestial navigation, understanding the combined effects of numerous gravity fields with accuracy. It builds onto Pythagoras' 2D, with a 3D Pythagorean shape, and in combination with Newton's formula, as well as the notion of quantum time from Planck. Ultimately it is about predicting when the next doomsday meteor is going to strike the Earth and ether kill civilization or wipe out the entire ecosystem. I'm not sure what ends your logical structure aims at? Other than to contribute to such an endeavor as defending earth; perhaps even against alien invasion. Though there is certainly 1000 times more chance at least that the alien invader will be a lump of rock. The other pursuit of philosophy is ethics, but that is only meaningful in the context of psychology and actual persons.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 20, 2021 14:19:53 GMT
Eugene 2.0 Well its about the final outcome. The computer language I refer to is about celestial navigation, understanding the combined effects of numerous gravity fields with accuracy. It builds onto Pythagoras' 2D, with a 3D Pythagorean shape, and in combination with Newton's formula, as well as the notion of quantum time from Planck. Ultimately it is about predicting when the next doomsday meteor is going to strike the Earth and ether kill civilization or wipe out the entire ecosystem. I'm not sure what ends your logical structure aims at? Other than to contribute to such an endeavor as defending earth; perhaps even against alien invasion. Though there is certainly 1000 times more chance at least that the alien invader will be a lump of rock. The other pursuit of philosophy is ethics, but that is only meaningful in the context of psychology and actual persons. Well, I can say that is also a problem - to find the basic elements of logic. There are many attempts, and the primary one is that people usually use notions and they understand each other, despite the fact not everyone can defiene them. For instance, many of us can use notions 'science', 'life', 'logic', 'the whole', etc, but not everyone can difene them correctly. So, perhaps, the source of concepts is almost the same as the source of rationality. Our perceptions can be taken, but how can they correspond with each other, by which mechanisms? Are our feelings and perceptions united to some system? Somebody says that the concepts are names, while it doesn't seem to be possible as soon as we start dealing with semantical problems (i.e. synonyms, omonyms, and the other ones, inclusing the paradoxes of naming). Besides, there are two types of arguments: when we're taking about the names as names, and when we're talking about things using names. Since there's no way to avoid using names, we may confuse them interchangeably. Well, perhaps, that's all I can say. I don't really know this subject, it doesn't seem to be easy.
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Post by jonbain on Aug 20, 2021 19:05:28 GMT
Eugene 2.0Start with the most basic and undeniable truths. Of course some people are habitual contrarians, and that itself is a clue. The mind is a dualism. I reckon what gives me an edge is to have a clear understanding of computer algorithms and psychology. You say that using the logical language in your post is like sharpening the mind. Very true, and I have to be a bit annoying and say, that writing algorithms makes your mind like a razor blade. The computer forgives NOTHING. Your program crashes with even the tiniest flaw. You'd be amazed at how easy it is to spend an entire day because your comma looks like a full-stop. But psychology makes the mind like a laser-beam. If I could highlight just one point from psychology its the subconscious. Those things that one least wants to think about, are the things that one most needs to be clear on. Both computer logic and psychology help one another so intrinsically, that I would recommend doing both as majors to any student of anything before they even begin doing whatever else interests them. And of course philosophy is at the point where they meet. But astrophysics is the real goal of the computer algorithm. It all ties together.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 20, 2021 19:38:37 GMT
Eugene 2.0 Start with the most basic and undeniable truths. Of course some people are habitual contrarians, and that itself is a clue. The mind is a dualism. I reckon what gives me an edge is to have a clear understanding of computer algorithms and psychology. You say that using the logical language in your post is like sharpening the mind. Very true, and I have to be a bit annoying and say, that writing algorithms makes your mind like a razor blade. The computer forgives NOTHING. Your program crashes with even the tiniest flaw. You'd be amazed at how easy it is to spend an entire day because your comma looks like a full-stop. But psychology makes the mind like a laser-beam. If I could highlight just one point from psychology its the subconscious. Those things that one least wants to think about, are the things that one most needs to be clear on. Both computer logic and psychology help one another so intrinsically, that I would recommend doing both as majors to any student of anything before they even begin doing whatever else interests them. And of course philosophy is at the point where they meet. But astrophysics is the real goal of the computer algorithm. It all ties together. Thank you a lot for such inspiring words! Unfortunately I have come to this understanding - of how coding is important - too late. But I tried to repatriate to it, by luring into this with logic. It is possible. Maybe you or someone else time to time would help me with it. I won't be sad if none would agree. But the central idea is to rewrite the main aspect of algorithms to logical forms. For me the logical forms is comprehensive. And, I hope, in many cases I could translate from the usual language to a logical one (or vice versa). An algorithm is almost the same, except that any algorithms is an extension of logic. So, it has some extra tips, that a typical logic doesn't have them. For instance, it has circles or iterations. Anyway, I've already started trying to formalize some of such procedures to logic. My first example is with cycles: Let's say that we have to find which elements of a certain set has a value T, so that's how I see it: Step 1. Input the elements of the set into the computer's memory Step 2. If an element satisfies the form 2n+1 (let's suppose we've already had a procedure to solve it), then this element has a T value; else, it has V value. Step 3. Load the first element of the list, and load the rest elements to the memory Step 4. If a current element satisfies... and so on. But that's not all what I wanted to write: The "steps" are variables, and also "x", "y", and so on. "If", "then", "else" - are logical or functional constants, "=" - equality, and "T", "V" - are paramentrical constants. And there is an calculation operation. Therefore, if to write down it with three logical functions "if;then;else", "=", and calculations we can write this using just one logical operator: step i: if x_i = y, then "step (x_i+1)+1"; else, "step x_i+1" step j: if x_j = y, then "step (x_j+1)+1"; else, "step x_j+1" step k: write "x_(k-2) = y" Or the similar procedure. I don't know how to interact with the programs since I never coded anything (except for somthing simple in school). I think I have to read some books about it.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Aug 23, 2021 22:17:47 GMT
If "intentions determine the angle of observation" then intentions determine the angle of observation which states that "intentions are an angle of observation".... You're talking to yourself? To state intentions determine an angle of observation is in itself an intention thus an angle of observation. This results in a loop.
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