aldric
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Post by aldric on Dec 7, 2017 5:40:34 GMT
In political science, Horseshoe Theory asserts that the 'Far Left' and 'Far Right' are not quite opposites, but resemble each other much like the ends of a horseshoe curve towards one another. While many might attribute the 'Far Left' and 'Far Right' to Communism and Fascism, respectively, this is not the case; rather, the 'Left' would be attributable to Communism, and the 'Right' to Capitalism. For Fascism (I use the term here as a catch-all; Fascism is a third-position ideology comparable to Marxism and Leninism, not the economic theories of Capitalism and Communism) as an economic idea is by all means the proverbial middle of the spectrum, borrowing in its many forms from both Capitalist and Communist economic principles. Be it Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera's 'National Syndicalism' or Mussolini's 'Corporatism'.
Despite how they might pretend to despise each other, Communism and Capitalism actually complement one another. Both are international in their thinking, rather than national. Both work to prolong and benefit from the class-struggle, with the Communists setting the proletariat against the bourgeois, and Capitalism vice-versa. Both are materialistic, considering economic classes, profit, salary, and production before any truly essential and higher human purpose like religion, tradition, or nationalism. Both function regardless of what faceless, grey mass of humanoid-figures you have working in the factories, so long as the work gets done. Europe and China could swap populations and the economy would keep on going, with no regard for what ancient, sacred traditions are lost in this transfer, and the leaders would barely notice.
Both sides of this coin cry for 'egalitarianism', but what do they really mean by this? It doesn't mean 'freedom' or 'brotherhood' for others around the world, it's only a clever tactic by these economic forces to exploit not only their own people, but all those across the world equally. Consider what the British Empire did in China, or India, or Japan. The same situation is happening in our 'progressive' world. When Britain began exploiting these foreigners for cheaper goods and fatter profits, the industries of their own nation suffered, as did their own people alongside the Chinese, Indians, etc. In America today, there is hardly an industry which has not seen employment cuts or wholesale erasure by a government and financial willingness to produce their goods via Chinese slave-labor, where suicide nets are a necessity due to the conditions these people work in. With jobs being spare enough as they are, we still import millions of foreigners, and for what purpose? To fatten the labor market so these people might lower wages for an increasingly replaceable workforce. These bureaucrats, bankers, and corporations have no regard for the American or European people anymore than the Chinese do for their own. All that matters is profit, regardless of how or where you get it.
Yet for some reason our modern political discourse is overwhelmed by these principles. People fail to understand their similarities. Regardless where one stands on social issues, these economic systems don't produce figures or organized governments that care one way or another. They sway whichever direction the public does, or in the case of democracies, toward whichever bought politicians lie the hardest to the people. Their apathy and their salaries are preserved, regardless what the people do or decide, or even who their people are.
My question to anyone who read this tangent: What do you believe to be the best alternative to this false, exploitative dichotomy? What is your case for/against nationalistic governments and ideologies?
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Post by AmericanCharm on Dec 7, 2017 7:36:28 GMT
Very interesting yes I ponder this my self often. One thing I would say is dont misconstrue globalism (world government) with globalization (world trade, travel, etc).
You can have a free market without globalism dominating your nation. Look at China and Japan. Capitalism isn’t a bad system but the problem is how easily it becomes corrupted and turned into crony capitalism. That’s were you actually see the similarities between capitalism and socialism. Crony capitalism has stolen over 50 trillion from the midddle class. Gave it to multinational corporations and CEO vultures to out source jobs and cut wages. As well as hiring foreign guest workers. The same things that happen under democratic socialism.
Socially Fascism places value of the nation over that of the individual (and other nations). This is why many associate Trump as a fascist, however Trump's brand of nationalism is not about putting the nation over the individual, but a nation looking out for its interests (it being the collective group of individuals in that state) over that of other nations. The only argument for a leftist defined facisim is that they still believe in state controlled government.
I think people lean more toward Socialism and Communism if populism is more of a guiding value than nationalism. If nationalism and tradition are stronger guiding values, people will probably lean towards fascism. Nationalism doesn’t need to exclude its self to a specific set of economic ideals to work in my opinion.
My case is for Nationalist ideologies. I believe every race has a right to a homeland, I believe we should preserve our art, architecture, history, features, traditions, food, people, customs, homelands, and overall culture. I believe we can share each others cultures all while maintaining our own. I believe a homogenous nation all moving forward as one body and one mind is the way to create the most comfortable society.
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Manul
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Post by Manul on Dec 7, 2017 12:41:48 GMT
Very interesting yes I ponder this my self often. One thing I would say is dont misconstrue globalism (world government) with globalization (world trade, travel, etc). You can have a free market without globalism dominating your nation. Look at China and Japan. Capitalism isn’t a bad system but the problem is how easily it becomes corrupted and turned into crony capitalism. That’s were you actually see the similarities between capitalism and socialism. Crony capitalism has stolen over 50 trillion from the midddle class. Gave it to multinational corporations and CEO vultures to out source jobs and cut wages. As well as hiring foreign guest workers. The same things that happen under democratic socialism. Socially Fascism places value of the nation over that of the individual (and other nations). This is why many associate Trump as a fascist, however Trump's brand of nationalism is not about putting the nation over the individual, but a nation looking out for its interests (it being the collective group of individuals in that state) over that of other nations. The only argument for a leftist defined facisim is that they still believe in state controlled government. I think people lean more toward Socialism and Communism if populism is more of a guiding value than nationalism. If nationalism and tradition are stronger guiding values, people will probably lean towards fascism. Nationalism doesn’t need to exclude its self to a specific set of economic ideals to work in my opinion. My case is for Nationalist ideologies. I believe every race has a right to a homeland, I believe we should preserve our art, architecture, history, features, traditions, food, people, customs, homelands, and overall culture. I believe we can share each others cultures all while maintaining our own. I believe a homogenous nation all moving forward as one body and one mind is the way to create the most comfortable society. The erosion of the middle class in the west started after 1991 year when communists bankrupted (both ideologically & financially) & eastern block disappeared, with passed years the speed of that process only increased. Western elites think sort of: "No need for middle class if there is no Soviet sword of Damocles"
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aldric
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Post by aldric on Dec 8, 2017 9:10:37 GMT
Very interesting yes I ponder this my self often. One thing I would say is dont misconstrue globalism (world government) with globalization (world trade, travel, etc). You can have a free market without globalism dominating your nation. Look at China and Japan. Capitalism isn’t a bad system but the problem is how easily it becomes corrupted and turned into crony capitalism. That’s were you actually see the similarities between capitalism and socialism. Crony capitalism has stolen over 50 trillion from the midddle class. Gave it to multinational corporations and CEO vultures to out source jobs and cut wages. As well as hiring foreign guest workers. The same things that happen under democratic socialism. Socially Fascism places value of the nation over that of the individual (and other nations). This is why many associate Trump as a fascist, however Trump's brand of nationalism is not about putting the nation over the individual, but a nation looking out for its interests (it being the collective group of individuals in that state) over that of other nations. The only argument for a leftist defined facisim is that they still believe in state controlled government. I think people lean more toward Socialism and Communism if populism is more of a guiding value than nationalism. If nationalism and tradition are stronger guiding values, people will probably lean towards fascism. Nationalism doesn’t need to exclude its self to a specific set of economic ideals to work in my opinion. My case is for Nationalist ideologies. I believe every race has a right to a homeland, I believe we should preserve our art, architecture, history, features, traditions, food, people, customs, homelands, and overall culture. I believe we can share each others cultures all while maintaining our own. I believe a homogenous nation all moving forward as one body and one mind is the way to create the most comfortable society. The erosion of the middle class in the west started after 1991 year when communists bankrupted (both ideologically & financially) & eastern block disappeared, with passed years the speed of that process only increased. Western elites think sort of: "No need for middle class if there is no Soviet sword of Damocles" Manul, I wouldn't say the Communists were necessarily bankrupted. They lost on the economic front, but principles of their ideology survived and were spread by Marxist thinkers and sympathizers. This is what the 'far-right' of today refer to as 'Cultural Marxism'. If any other event wasn't telling enough of this shift in thinking, the global outcry to end Apartheid in South Africa at the behest of Nelson Mandela and his communist party should be. Had the Cold War still been as intense as it was in the sixties, no western government would have backed Mandela. He'd be treated the same as his pal Castro. Nothing save ideological shift to the left can explain how America went from a country of world-renowned eugenic endeavors to an equality-preaching welfare state. AmericanCharm , I'm not misconstruing the two, but I believe that Globalism is the inevitable result of Globalization, especially in a world where capitalism reigns supreme and profits are put first. Special interests would inevitably champion for mass immigration and the tearing down of barriers not conducive to trade. People in such a society have even less true individualism than a Fascist state, for they are reduced to 'producers' and 'consumers' rather than recognized as a unique part of a national whole. That unique character of their people, reflected upon themselves, goes unrecognized and the elites and financial interests wouldn't bat an eye should, say, the French be entirely replaced by Africans.
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Manul
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Post by Manul on Dec 8, 2017 17:01:25 GMT
The erosion of the middle class in the west started after 1991 year when communists bankrupted (both ideologically & financially) & eastern block disappeared, with passed years the speed of that process only increased. Western elites think sort of: "No need for middle class if there is no Soviet sword of Damocles" Manul , I wouldn't say the Communists were necessarily bankrupted. They lost on the economic front, but principles of their ideology survived and were spread by Marxist thinkers and sympathizers. This is what the 'far-right' of today refer to as 'Cultural Marxism'. If any other event wasn't telling enough of this shift in thinking, the global outcry to end Apartheid in South Africa at the behest of Nelson Mandela and his communist party should be. Had the Cold War still been as intense as it was in the sixties, no western government would have backed Mandela. He'd be treated the same as his pal Castro. Nothing save ideological shift to the left can explain how America went from a country of world-renowned eugenic endeavors to an equality-preaching welfare state. AmericanCharm , I'm not misconstruing the two, but I believe that Globalism is the inevitable result of Globalization, especially in a world where capitalism reigns supreme and profits are put first. Special interests would inevitably champion for mass immigration and the tearing down of barriers not conducive to trade. People in such a society have even less true individualism than a Fascist state, for they are reduced to 'producers' and 'consumers' rather than recognized as a unique part of a national whole. That unique character of their people, reflected upon themselves, goes unrecognized and the elites and financial interests wouldn't bat an eye should, say, the French be entirely replaced by Africans. Don't you think that 'Cultural Marxism' has roots not in 1917, but in western 1968 year "student revolution" in France, hippies, movement for the rights of blacks, first lgbt defenders and such... Communism is not about lgbt rights, legalisation of sin, minorities interest over majority interest, free immigration & feminism. It's about governent property (against private property), dictatorship of workers (party dictatorship in reality), anti-gay (all gays communists put in mental hospital), against any interest of minorities (if they are contradict with official ideology), woman equel to men, but without feminism. Today western & eastern Europe have very different worldvision because eastern Europe was under Iron Curtain when in Western Europe happened 1968 events. Eastern Europe after 1989 year wanted just to get rid of ineffective communist state-oriented planned economy, build better roads, open retail shops, increase their wages to consume more goods, they actually never wanter that 1968 year hippie stuff
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aldric
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Post by aldric on Dec 9, 2017 4:22:03 GMT
Manul , I wouldn't say the Communists were necessarily bankrupted. They lost on the economic front, but principles of their ideology survived and were spread by Marxist thinkers and sympathizers. This is what the 'far-right' of today refer to as 'Cultural Marxism'. If any other event wasn't telling enough of this shift in thinking, the global outcry to end Apartheid in South Africa at the behest of Nelson Mandela and his communist party should be. Had the Cold War still been as intense as it was in the sixties, no western government would have backed Mandela. He'd be treated the same as his pal Castro. Nothing save ideological shift to the left can explain how America went from a country of world-renowned eugenic endeavors to an equality-preaching welfare state. AmericanCharm , I'm not misconstruing the two, but I believe that Globalism is the inevitable result of Globalization, especially in a world where capitalism reigns supreme and profits are put first. Special interests would inevitably champion for mass immigration and the tearing down of barriers not conducive to trade. People in such a society have even less true individualism than a Fascist state, for they are reduced to 'producers' and 'consumers' rather than recognized as a unique part of a national whole. That unique character of their people, reflected upon themselves, goes unrecognized and the elites and financial interests wouldn't bat an eye should, say, the French be entirely replaced by Africans. Don't you think that 'Cultural Marxism' has roots not in 1917, but in western 1968 year "student revolution" in France, hippies, movement for the rights of blacks, first lgbt defenders and such... Communism is not about lgbt rights, legalisation of sin, minorities interest over majority interest, free immigration & feminism. It's about governent property (against private property), dictatorship of workers (party dictatorship in reality), anti-gay (all gays communists put in mental hospital), against any interest of minorities (if they are contradict with official ideology), woman equel to men, but without feminism. Today western & eastern Europe have very different worldvision because eastern Europe was under Iron Curtain when in Western Europe happened 1968 events. Eastern Europe after 1989 year wanted just to get rid of ineffective communist state-oriented planned economy, build better roads, open retail shops, increase their wages to consume more goods, they actually never wanter that 1968 year hippie stuff Marxism was initially concerned with economic classes, setting the proletariat against the bourgeois, the apparently oppressed against the alleged oppressor. With 'Cultural Marxism' these roles are simply altered to set the minority against the majority, and as the name suggests, this is on a cultural basis of revolt rather than a strictly economic basis as Classical Marxism was.
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Manul
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Post by Manul on Dec 10, 2017 17:23:20 GMT
That's why I am glad that Russia was under Iron Curtain in 1960s-80s My worldvision: 1) Best form government - Aristotle's "Politia", when decisions are made for the benefit of the majority (the most important), by many people (less important). 2) Best economy - market economy with some planned economy elements for big projects (planned economy proved that alone can't fill the market with consumer goods) 3) No any place for "white guilt" or any other such self-destructive bullshit, I think all people must be grateful to ex-Soviets that they payed 27 million people price to stop Hitler (population of modern Australia btw) 4) I have normal relation to communists (not a supporter though), left ideas will be always with us just like right wing ideas too 5) Religion is ok (religious fanaticism is bad) 6) Females & males must have equal opportunities, but not obliged to be equel in everything (more important effectiveness). For example, I am will not be against if my country government will consist mostly from woman if they will do their job good and I am not ready to give minister position to a potential candidate just because gender organ in his/her pants. 7) Nazism is self destructive, it is based on hate of other ethnicities. Any hate is self destructive, it destroys a person from within. 8) Mass immigration is dangerous 9) Social Liberalism experiments over humans became a problem in the modern world, I see good only economic liberalisation when people don't need much time to register their business for example 10) Globalisation is process which nobody can stop, it is an normal objective process, but artificial globalization for globalisation is dangerous. 11) Nuclear weapons is a key to peace
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aldric
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Post by aldric on Dec 10, 2017 21:58:03 GMT
Mine's rather different, as my entire philosophy is based on the idea that men should not seek to escape natural law, and that society should be organized in an organic manner:
1) Best form of government: Constitutional Meritocratic-Aristocracy, in which some matters are determined via direct democratic measures like plebiscites and some form of 'leader principle' is maintained, where the people may (only by near-unanimous support) elect to power a dictatorial leader whose authority supersedes the aristocracy except when constitutional law is broken.
2) Best Economy: Mixed Economy (You were pretty spot-on) but with the economy organized in a Corporatist fashion, where federations of workers and employers of every industry exist such that both may bargain and class struggle be reduced.
3) I believe in strong state-sponsored nationalism instilled at a young age by compulsory youth involvement in the community. Something like the youth programs of Germany in those days.
4) Leftists may be tolerated, but any attempt to subvert the character or function of the nation will be met with force.
5) Religion is beneficial insofar as it does not subvert the national character. Religions which build upon it should be supported in turn.
6) Genders and their roles are different, but they are equal. I believe motherhood to be the highest and most noble career which all other functions of the nation should seek to protect. It should be a woman's duty first to her family and to raising strong children. I don't believe it natural that woman be involved in labor, or politics, or for God's sake war. It degrades the natural dignity and beauty of their natural role of which only they are capable. It should be men who toil in the field, degrade themselves in the rotten arena of politics, and sacrifice themselves for the nation.
7) I think you have an extremely simplified view of what National Socialism was. It was not merely an ideology of hate.
8) All immigration is dangerous to the social cohesion of the nation. Only peoples of similar ethnic background with beneficial skills to the nation should be allowed entry.
9) Corporatism is set up similar to the Guild systems of old, which eased entry into various industries.
10) Globalisation is inevitable, but it does not mean that the national characters and ethnic compositions of our diverse world cannot be preserved.
11) Nuclear weapons is a key to peace, I agree, but I will go further and say that eugenics is a key to prosperity. Humans are animals, and like all other animals, if we don't breed ourselves better, we will get worse.
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Azamat
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Post by Azamat on Dec 20, 2017 2:54:48 GMT
Political discourse suffers from verbalism, by which I mean that reality is described in platitudes instead of facts and measurable things. This allows for confusing claims such as capitalism and communism being "two sides of the same coin".
Fundamentally, all humans (like all organisms) are compelled to maximise their self-interest for survival and reproduction, and political ideologies should be seen as an adaptation intended to help us to survive, no different from any biological adaptation. The most useful way to compare ideologies is by the resulting patterns of cooperation and competition (with respect to resources). How do humans cooperate and compete within and across group boundaries under the influence of a particular set of ideas? Some ideologies propose the pursuit of self-interest by individuals, others cooperation within a defined group (e.g. an ethnicity or religion) and others yet cooperation across groups. Support for a particular ideology is usually motivated by self-interest: if you are a successful businessman then you benefit from individualism, if you depend on the support of your group then you benefit from a form of nationalism, and if you belong to an out-competed minority group or none at all you benefit from a humanitarian ideology (communism). Large numbers of Jews (a highly ethnocentric minority group) were involved in the establishment of the USSR because it killed Russian ethnocentrism within the state administration.
Individual human lives and groups of humans have no inherent value or meaning. There is nothing inherently better or more desirable about the assembly of humans into a nation compared to a mass of atomised individuals, they are merely different survival strategies.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 11, 2018 10:43:40 GMT
It might be worth one's time to look at the historic use of the terms "left" and "right" in political history. The terms have been regularly changing since their beginning during the French revolution. When the Russians were rising against the communist government of the USSR, the communists were called "conservatives" and "right wing." The uprising was mostly portrayed throughout the world as "left wing." For a few dimwitted American conservatives, this was a big deal. They complained about the Communists being the leftists for a short time, but no one listened. Communists are only left wing in as much as they are anti-establishment. They quickly become right wing as soon as they become the establishment and their true intentions become known. As Lenin put it; "communism will be built with non-communist hands."
I agree that fascism is a middle ground between capitalism and communism. And I would agree, it is considerably more desirable. Unchecked capitalism ultimately leads us back to serfdom or to violent revolution. Communism ultimately leads to total stagnation or slavery to an elite class in the name of the people. Both are known to lay claim to an anarchist philosophy where it is perceived to be advantageous. Fascism directly counters all forms of anarchy and ultimately is less totalitarian than capitalism or communism. But fascism requires an enemy to build its state against. Leaders grant favors and privileges to maintain control. Massive corruption and enslavement to government bureaucrats become the norm. All three of these philosophies are like two marbles and a golf ball down at the bottom of a fifty-gallon drum. Anarchists of both the pseudo-left and pseudo-right varieties, be they anarcho-syndicalist or royal libertarian, offer either a localized democratic socialist consensus where unanimity maintained against the quiet unspoken "or else" or a complete darkness of unknowns on which no plans can ever be seriously made.
I just recently read the book Progress and Poverty, by Henry George. I fully understand how this book shot from the most widely read book in the entire world by 1900 (except for the Bible) to a complete dud. The ideas for political-economy are absolutely right on target (in my opinion). But some of the flaws in logic are so overwhelming, that I find it an embarrassment to my self to even mention the book. And there are the problems of the 21 century which Henry George never thought of in the 1870s when he wrote the book. Politically, ideologically, philosophically, I believe this book is a starting point for a better world. His ideas with a lot of revision, so much revision as to make the ideas completely new, will I believe herl the entire political-economic world into an error of almost unimaginable prosperous progress. That progress will put the majority of the people and most food of the next century living and farmed in outer space. Thanks to Henry George, as wrong as he was, makes me an optimist. Someone, hopefully, lots of people, are going to take his ideas, correct them and put them out to the public. His book can be read or just listened to in its audio format for free online.
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ZeroInteruppt
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Post by ZeroInteruppt on Jan 14, 2018 3:01:09 GMT
While I have to tend to agree with many of the arguments given I also feel differently. My own personal issue with many politicians today is that they are so bland. They speak to us and I am left wanting. They give us no true inspiration. They speak to the various aspects if our political demeanour yet never really sasy anything. I am neither communist nor capitalist, leftist nor rightist. I am simply a romantic at heart and wish we could have a leader that could truly inspire us. Not one that just pleaded to our base natures or say pretty things and then leave us wanting.
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