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Post by karl on Feb 5, 2021 19:20:43 GMT
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Post by Lone Wanderer on Feb 5, 2021 21:15:43 GMT
Very interesting. In my opinion, modern countries and their govs should follow Roman formula: culture > race
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Feb 6, 2021 0:26:18 GMT
An example of some racial politics from the Roman Empire can be found in the Bible. The Book of Galatians is written by the Apostle Paul to the people the book is named after. The Galatians were Celtic people who had settled in Asia Minor. In Asia Minor, at the time if I'm not mistaken, the people were culturally/ethnically Greek being in the Greek-speaking Eastern Roman empire and being so close to Greece. The Celtic Galatians were considered stupid, uncivilized, smelly, backward barbarians by the Greeks and Romans for whom anyone who didn't speak a classical language was a barbarian as they associated speech with reason. The Galatians because of their tongue were literally considered to not have the capacity to reason properly. Paul starts off the Book of Galatians by saying, "Oh foolish Galatians..." The meaning of this is lost on the modern audience but Paul was basically using a racial or ethnic slur to get their attention. What he said was the equivalent of coming to the South where I'm from and saying, "you stupid redneck."
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 6, 2021 14:37:40 GMT
An example of some racial politics from the Roman Empire can be found in the Bible. The Book of Galatians is written by the Apostle Paul to the people the book is named after. The Galatians were Celtic people who had settled in Asia Minor. In Asia Minor, at the time if I'm not mistaken, the people were culturally/ethnically Greek being in the Greek-speaking Eastern Roman empire and being so close to Greece. The Celtic Galatians were considered stupid, uncivilized, smelly, backward barbarians by the Greeks and Romans for whom anyone who didn't speak a classical language was a barbarian as they associated speech with reason. The Galatians because of their tongue were literally considered to not have the capacity to reason properly. Paul starts off the Book of Galatians by saying, "Oh foolish Galatians..." The meaning of this is lost on the modern audience but Paul was basically using a racial or ethnic slur to get their attention. What he said was the equivalent of coming to the South where I'm from and saying, "you stupid redneck." Either it wasn't a strong pejorative, or Paul intentionally joked/was sarcastic. Yes, being a Roman citizen he could use such strong words, but even so I would say there is/were big difference between "oh foolish Galatians" and "You stupid redneck(s)". Unlike your conclusion I derivative here that there were no racism in our present view; along with it – today's racism has been monstroused out. Just have a look at examples like "barbarians" or "vandals". The first word literally came from the A. Greek using "bahr-bahr" as unknown syllables of non-Greek people; the latter one means the real tribe of Vandals, one of the German folks. The same is about many words, because such constructions are made with compares of two or more things, i.e. metonymy. If I compare one person with a rock (as it happened to St. Peter) or with a fish, what I am doing is verbally name his behaviour, his M.O. If I were a so-so, not reliable, untrusted, dishonest, etc person I could be compared to a Humpty Dumpty or to a Marxist. (Jesus compared Pharisees to some wolves (I don't remember exactly), however he didn't use any strong context.) Thus, no racism was there. There was an act of moral lesson. My position on it is that each moral act is built up with didactics, and vice versa, didactics provide great support for the morality. |
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Clovis Merovingian
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Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Feb 6, 2021 21:07:17 GMT
An example of some racial politics from the Roman Empire can be found in the Bible. The Book of Galatians is written by the Apostle Paul to the people the book is named after. The Galatians were Celtic people who had settled in Asia Minor. In Asia Minor, at the time if I'm not mistaken, the people were culturally/ethnically Greek being in the Greek-speaking Eastern Roman empire and being so close to Greece. The Celtic Galatians were considered stupid, uncivilized, smelly, backward barbarians by the Greeks and Romans for whom anyone who didn't speak a classical language was a barbarian as they associated speech with reason. The Galatians because of their tongue were literally considered to not have the capacity to reason properly. Paul starts off the Book of Galatians by saying, "Oh foolish Galatians..." The meaning of this is lost on the modern audience but Paul was basically using a racial or ethnic slur to get their attention. What he said was the equivalent of coming to the South where I'm from and saying, "you stupid redneck." Either it wasn't a strong pejorative, or Paul intentionally joked/was sarcastic. Yes, being a Roman citizen he could use such strong words, but even so I would say there is/were big difference between "oh foolish Galatians" and "You stupid redneck(s)". Unlike your conclusion I derivative here that there were no racism in our present view; along with it – today's racism has been monstroused out. Just have a look at examples like "barbarians" or "vandals". The first word literally came from the A. Greek using "bahr-bahr" as unknown syllables of non-Greek people; the latter one means the real tribe of Vandals, one of the German folks. The same is about many words, because such constructions are made with compares of two or more things, i.e. metonymy. If I compare one person with a rock (as it happened to St. Peter) or with a fish, what I am doing is verbally name his behaviour, his M.O. If I were a so-so, not reliable, untrusted, dishonest, etc person I could be compared to a Humpty Dumpty or to a Marxist. (Jesus compared Pharisees to some wolves (I don't remember exactly), however he didn't use any strong context.) Thus, no racism was there. There was an act of moral lesson. My position on it is that each moral act is built up with didactics, and vice versa, didactics provide great support for the morality. I didn't say that the Apostle Paul was a racist but he was using a slur to get their attention. Standards of political correctness were notoriously lax in the first century. They weren't oversensitive easily offended pansies like modern people. You don't write the book of Galatians to a people you hate. |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 1,763
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
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Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Feb 7, 2021 2:10:22 GMT
Either it wasn't a strong pejorative, or Paul intentionally joked/was sarcastic. Yes, being a Roman citizen he could use such strong words, but even so I would say there is/were big difference between "oh foolish Galatians" and "You stupid redneck(s)". Unlike your conclusion I derivative here that there were no racism in our present view; along with it – today's racism has been monstroused out. Just have a look at examples like "barbarians" or "vandals". The first word literally came from the A. Greek using "bahr-bahr" as unknown syllables of non-Greek people; the latter one means the real tribe of Vandals, one of the German folks. The same is about many words, because such constructions are made with compares of two or more things, i.e. metonymy. If I compare one person with a rock (as it happened to St. Peter) or with a fish, what I am doing is verbally name his behaviour, his M.O. If I were a so-so, not reliable, untrusted, dishonest, etc person I could be compared to a Humpty Dumpty or to a Marxist. (Jesus compared Pharisees to some wolves (I don't remember exactly), however he didn't use any strong context.) Thus, no racism was there. There was an act of moral lesson. My position on it is that each moral act is built up with didactics, and vice versa, didactics provide great support for the morality. I didn't say that the Apostle Paul was a racist but he was using a slur to get their attention. Standards of political correctness were notoriously lax in the first century. They weren't oversensitive easily offended pansies like modern people. You don't write the book of Galatians to a people you hate. Sorry, should have formulated this better. Ancient cultures didn't really have this culture we have today where we're so sensitive to insulting other ethnic groups. If the Romans thought you were a barbarian they'd say it. If the Jews didn't like the Samaritans they'd say it. There was not a stigma against "racism" like there is today. They didn't have our political correctness is what I'm trying to say. It was a totally different culture where Paul using a slur to catch the attention and hammer home his point would not have had a huge stigma against it like it would today. It would hammer home the point to the Galatians though who would be offended being on the receiving end but Paul was willing to offend to hammer his point home. |
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 7, 2021 6:42:39 GMT
I didn't say that the Apostle Paul was a racist but he was using a slur to get their attention. Standards of political correctness were notoriously lax in the first century. They weren't oversensitive easily offended pansies like modern people. You don't write the book of Galatians to a people you hate. Sorry, should have formulated this better. Ancient cultures didn't really have this culture we have today where we're so sensitive to insulting other ethnic groups. If the Romans thought you were a barbarian they'd say it. If the Jews didn't like the Samaritans they'd say it. There was not a stigma against "racism" like there is today. They didn't have our political correctness is what I'm trying to say. It was a totally different culture where Paul using a slur to catch the attention and hammer home his point would not have had a huge stigma against it like it would today. It would hammer home the point to the Galatians though who would be offended being on the receiving end but Paul was willing to offend to hammer his point home. I wonder how can you find out the exactly intentions of Paul? Perhaps not all his friends aka apostles knew him so closely. Doubtfully he mentioned something like that being an Apostle of Christ. Except for to wake 'em up for something important. And again, it wouldn't be harmful; if someone woke me up like that, under some urgent and important conditions – when it was necessary and unavoidable – one hundred percents I would excuse that person and even was grateful to him |
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 7, 2021 7:04:38 GMT
I didn't say that the Apostle Paul was a racist but he was using a slur to get their attention. Standards of political correctness were notoriously lax in the first century. They weren't oversensitive easily offended pansies like modern people. You don't write the book of Galatians to a people you hate. Sorry, should have formulated this better. Ancient cultures didn't really have this culture we have today where we're so sensitive to insulting other ethnic groups. If the Romans thought you were a barbarian they'd say it. If the Jews didn't like the Samaritans they'd say it. There was not a stigma against "racism" like there is today. They didn't have our political correctness is what I'm trying to say. It was a totally different culture where Paul using a slur to catch the attention and hammer home his point would not have had a huge stigma against it like it would today. It would hammer home the point to the Galatians though who would be offended being on the receiving end but Paul was willing to offend to hammer his point home. (Also, I must add – I didn't want to say you had called Paul a racist.) |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 1,763
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Feb 7, 2021 7:25:18 GMT
Sorry, should have formulated this better. Ancient cultures didn't really have this culture we have today where we're so sensitive to insulting other ethnic groups. If the Romans thought you were a barbarian they'd say it. If the Jews didn't like the Samaritans they'd say it. There was not a stigma against "racism" like there is today. They didn't have our political correctness is what I'm trying to say. It was a totally different culture where Paul using a slur to catch the attention and hammer home his point would not have had a huge stigma against it like it would today. It would hammer home the point to the Galatians though who would be offended being on the receiving end but Paul was willing to offend to hammer his point home. (Also, I must add – I didn't want to say you had called Paul a racist.) Ah, okay. No problemo.  |
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