Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 1,763
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Nov 20, 2020 0:41:02 GMT
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Post by joustos on Nov 20, 2020 18:45:41 GMT
Unfortunately I was not able to hear everything that is said in the youtube; however, I liked the presentation of historic antcedents of the great Schism, such as the break up of the Roman Empire (which eventually Justinian tried to reconstruct); and the issue about icons, that is, the controversy between the Greek iconoclasts and the Roman traditionalists who admitted the cult of icons (or, as the Judeans would say, "of idols"). But we must remember that "idolization" was brought into the Christian Church by the Greek Theodora, Constantine's mother, who initiated the collection of relics of Christ and of his whereabouts. So, European churches are still flooded with Jesus' prepuce of the circumcision (in about eleven churches!); Jesus' blood spilled by a spear at his crucifixion (in an Italian church which was later partially robbed by other churches); Jesus' cross on which he was crucified; Longinus' spear itself (in the Austrian imperial house); the steps that led to Pontius Pilate seat of judgment, where Jesus was questioned; the shed where Jesus was born; etc. [The document that states Constantine's donation of the Western Empire to the Pope was shown to be a forgery by Ficino, a Renaissance scholar and philosopher, who also translated Plato's works into Latin for Cosimo De' Medici, the ruler of Florence.] Interesting: While Ficino was busy translating Plato, Cosimo acquired the newly discovered Hermetic/alchemic writings (in Greek); so Cosimo immediately requested the translation of these writings, which later prompted a European interest in alchemy. Alchemy was the work of Alexandrian Greeks who followed Aristotle's theory of the four Empedoclean elements -- non-living things. It was continued by the Egypt-conquering Arabs, wherefore the alchemic furnace is still called Athanor.) Another Renaissance man will write "Pyro-Techniques", the positive achievements of alchemy without the esoteric notions of Hermetism.
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Post by joustos on Nov 20, 2020 22:20:40 GMT
{correction in my above post: The mother of Constantine was Helena; Theodora was the wife of Justinian.} I am not sure as to what precipitated the great Schism that resulted into the papal Catholic Church and the patriarchal Orthodox church. Probably it was after the fact that some theologian presented the issue of papal authority, that Jesus never established the papacy. Well, as far as I can see, indeed Jesus did not establish a papacy; Gospel writers did. This is my contention: I read that Jesus said to Simon Peter something like this, "You are Peter, and on this rock I shall build my church" ... and not even the fires of hell shall prevail against it. // The Gospels were written in Greek, and the name PETER was PETRA, which means "rock, stone". Therefore Jesus, or the gospel writers, made a PUN on words: Thou art a rock and on this rock I shall build my church. [Jesus spoke Aramaic; so, "Petra" may be a Greek translation of the name Jesus actually used. His very words are quoted in the Gospels only once, when on the cross he said, "Eloi, Eloi [God, God], why hast thou forsaken me?" But even this is very strange, for why would he address God as God rather than, as he believed, as father? Even his prayer says, "Our Father who art in heaven, ...." // As you may remember, Jesus said all that toPeter after that Peter confirmed Jesus as the son of God. Jesus himself believed that he was the son of God, rather than, as Matthew wrote, the son of Joseph in the bloodline of King David. He also believed that he was the Messiah predicted by the Hebrew Bible. // In conclusion, I'd say that Jesus did not even found his church (Ecclesia, the Assembly of those who believed in him). Catholic and Orthodox Chistians believe that he did, which means that Jesus rejected the Israelites (the "church" of God) and replaced it by the " church of Jesus the Christ". Jesus was not a heretic of the Jewish Faith and indeed accepted the Bible as the foundation of his being the Messiah/Redeemer of the Israelites or, apparently of mankind, for he commissioned his apostles to spread his teachings to other Nations/Peoples. As St. Paul put it, foreigners do not have to be literally circumcised in order to belong to the bosom of Abraham; all they need is a circumcision of the heart. baptism, and: I believe in one God, father omnipotent, ... and in Jesus Christ,... and in one church, universal [for Jews and Gentiles], apostolic [not Petrine/papal]. // There is no need for a schism of the Church, or, perhaps, no need for a Church.
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Post by joustos on Nov 21, 2020 0:10:51 GMT
I am familiar with Christian folklore. So, for those who are not, here is one story. After the crucifixion, St. Paul went to Rome to convert the Romans to Christianity. Some time later, St, Peter wanted to join Paul and proceeded to go to Rome. While walking on the Appian Way, towards the city, Peter met,or reached up to, a man whom he recogized as Jesus. So, conversing in Latin, Peter said, "Quo vadis, domine?"(Where are you going, O Lord?"" And Jesus replied, "To be crucified again". Somebody has interpreted Jesus's words as predicting that his vicar, Peter was going to be crucified, for, in fact, Jesus was not crucified, but Peter was -- at the bottom of Vatican Hill [the Seer's Hill] and supposedy was buried in a nearby Roman crypt, which still exists today. Constantine had a basilica built on top of the crypt, but, during the Renaissance, Michelangelo was commissioned to alter it, and so we have today's St. Peter's basilica with its typical Michelangelo dome, which has often been copied. (Once I visited the basilica as well as the crypt, and the art rooms of the Vatican. The Pope's Sistine chapel is a little building next to the basilica and his living quarters, on the other side, the Etruscan side, of the Tiber River. The pope's cathedral as the bishop of Rome, St. John's in Lateran, is a temple in the center of Rome. I lived in Rome for three years, near the ancient Forum.)// Meanwhile, some Christians built a shrine near the place where Peter and Jesus met. It is called The Quo Vadis Church. It preserves a slab of marble which supposedly has the imprint of one of Jesus' feet, for he had stepped on the slab. Here, then, is another relic of Christ. Believe it or not.
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Post by joustos on Nov 21, 2020 16:34:49 GMT
Tying up the loose ends in my post before the last one: I obtained information that, in the Gospels, Peter's Aramaic name was mentioned, that is, Cephas [Kephas], which, according to some interpreters means "Rock or Cliff" . Therefore, Petra or Petros is indeed a translation of his real name. Thus, speaking metaphorically, Jesus said, "You are a rock, and on this rock....." But I don't know whether the speakers of Aramaic [Jesus, Peter, and the other Galileans] customarily used their words metaphorically; the Greeks (including the Gospel writers) customarily metaphorized, that is, used the names of visible things as the names of invisible things [mental processes; gods; etc.) [As I stated elsewhere, the original gods of any population were seen and, hence, evident. Demonstrations of the existence of a god became necessary when gods were conceived as non-physical, invisible, things -- in the manner of the human mind or of the human person. Since the Greeks personified their "natural" gods, they had to use their "natural" language to speak of the invisibles. Genesis-1, which is an Aramaic/Galilean account of the Elohim --the Gods who created Man in their own image, explicitly male and female -- obviously used their language literally rather than metaphorically. On the other hand, for the Greeks, the descent of buried people to Hades is metaphorical, since the interred corpses remained in their tombs. So, I contend that the episode of Jesus and Peter, as well as the episode of the Last Supper, was concocted by the Greek Gospel writers. (Thereby, Jesus became the new Dio-nysos, Son of Zeus/God:... my blood; my body.)
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Post by joustos on Nov 21, 2020 18:07:25 GMT
Another loose end I had in mind: The precipitating cause of the Great Schism may have been the fact that in the Roman Church, there was a chaos of the papacy: After the return to Rome of the pope from Avignon, multiple popes were elected by various factions of Christians. So, the Byzantine Patriarchate declared itself to be the only authentic (orthodox) institution that Jesus made. [As I contend that Jesus did not institute a Church at all, the Schism was a de facto separation of Christian Rome and Christian Constantinople, not a de jure separation: Neither city had an authorized seat of... ecclesiastic government or teacher of Jesus' messages. Eventually a pope will issue a peculiar dogma: When the pope speaks ex cathedra, out of the authorized seat, he is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is thereby infallible. Hence, this dogma of papal infallibility must be believed by any Christian. (Rejection of any dogma is heresy, which is punishable by death in this world, and burning in hell in the next world.) Supposedly Peter was given two keys, the key to Heaven and, in this world, the key to the empire. Consequently, in real Medieval history, it was the pope that crowned (officially recognized) emperors; the pope became the emperor of emperors. But Napoleon will crown himself as emperor. German aristocrats rejected the Pope's authority and turned themselves into the electors of the Emperor of the so-called Holy Roman Empire. Luther will separate himself and the German Catholics from the Roman/papal Catholic Church. And, of course, the English Henry VIII will institute the Anglican Catholic Church, to be presided by the Canterbury Presbyter/Bishop, in order that he would validly divorce his wife. Thus European schismatic history!
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Post by joustos on Nov 22, 2020 3:52:01 GMT
Speaking of RELICS, let us not forget two pieces of cloth or canvas that are preserved in Italian churches. Both contain an image, which is considered to be the image of the face of Jesus. One is called the Veronica, that is, the true image/icon of Jesus. (Some women are called "Veronica" -- after the just explained name.) Supposedly, the cloth in question was the cloth that was used to dry Jesus' sweat while he was carrying the Cross. The other cloth is supposed to be the sheet or shroud in which Jesus'svbody was wrapped after its deposition from the Cross and entombed. As it is now preserved in a church of Turin (Italy), it is usually called "the shround of Turin." In the second half of the 20th century, various types of investigations were made in the attempt to establish the authenticity of the shroud -- whether the linen came from Palestine, whether the image of the body and the face of a bearded man was painted on the linen or appeared there miraculously at the resurrection of Jesus, and so forth. A little known fact: An American photographer anointed a marble statue with a certain acid and wrapped the statue in a linen sheet. The result: a negative image of the statue (that is, with a reversal of the dark and light areas of the statue). The image on the shroud is also a photographic negative; the positive image can be obtained by simply photographing the shroud. So, it is physically possible that the shroud's image was counterfietted. Furthermore, I remember reading in a Gospel, many years ago, that when the Marys went to the tomb of Jesus and did not find him there, they noticed that the linen band which was supposed to be wrapped around his head was still unfolded and near the spot where the head would have rested. So, I conclude that the Shroud of Turin, which has the image of a FACE of a man, cannot be Jesus' shroud, as the real shroud did not wrap his head. Say Farewell to the Turin fake relic.// The Marys found that the stone-door had been rolled out and an angel appeared and told them that he had arisen, but the likely truth is that he had not died on the cross and, therefore, Joseph of Arimethea did not wrap his head when he placed Jesus in the tomb. During the night, with or without assistance, Jesus walked out of the tomb, but the myth of the resurrection was started and persists. As Jesus had been really injured, on the way to Emmaus, he was not recognized even by his disciples.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 26, 2020 20:55:38 GMT
Can I get like a list of how exactly they are different though? Or they just do the same thing but with their own style?
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