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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 5, 2020 12:12:43 GMT
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 GOD TV’s brief appearance on Israeli cable TV, allowing an aggressively missionizing Christian group to preach directly to Israelis in Hebrew, triggered a hue and cry in the Jewish state.
Within a month, the agreement was cancelled, and the channel removed from Israeli cable. In response, one of the leaders of the initiative, Michael Brown, wrote a highly critical piece in Haaretz (How Israel discriminates against Evangelical Christians) charging Israel with violations of their own country’s "much touted promise of religious freedom."
As a historian of two millennia of Jewish-Christian relations, I’d like to put Israel’s concerns in historical perspective, and explain why the behavior of Brown, a self-styled "philo-Jewish" critic and "opponent" of Christian antisemitism, is so irresponsible.
First, we need to look back over the history of a volatile and extremely dangerous form of Christian Jew-hatred that has played out over the last two millennia, one that goes from loving Jews to hating them in a relatively rapid span of time. This is the problem of apocalyptic conversion, folowed by apocalyptic disappointment, and it plays out in a wave structure influencing Christian attitudes towards Jews.
That problem begins with the Christian need to convert the Jews: it’s a fierce, enduring, and unreciprocated desire.
Jewish identity is not tied up in converting the Christians the way that Christian identity is defined by what it considers Jews’ current refusal, but eventual acceptance, of Jesus as Christ and Lord. Christian exegetes have made it a central feature of their eschatology (what happens at the End Times), that the Jews will convert to Jesus at the very End, based on a (mis)reading of the gospel of Paul (Romans 11:25f).
As Marvell told his "coy mistress," using the most extravagant metaphor for delay, "And you should, if you please, refuse, Till the conversion of the Jews." Except, Paul did not say the Jews will "convert," but rather, be "saved
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Post by karl on Oct 5, 2020 14:01:44 GMT
The alliance between Evangelical Christians and the right-wing of Israel has tactically been a success for the latter, but could prove to be a strategic disaster. When Jews in the middle ages were forced to participate in public discussions about Judaism vs Christianity, the rational given was that the Jews were the lost lambs. But whenever it became clear that the lost lambs rejected their saviors, the latter felt scorned and could start murdering Jews indiscriminately.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 5, 2020 15:47:19 GMT
The heck? I consider myself evangelical but I could care less if it's a Jew or someone else. The way I like doing it with them (or anyone else) is just show them what it says and that they're the opposite of that. If they don't care then I just pat them on the back basically with a smile and walk away wishing them all the best. No hard feelings whatsoever. And if we cross paths again it's just a, "Hey, what's up? How's it going?". So yeah just a friendly greeting/talk. So the link doesn't apply to everyone.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 5, 2020 17:05:34 GMT
The alliance between Evangelical Christians and the right-wing of Israel has tactically been a success for the latter, but could prove to be a strategic disaster. When Jews in the middle ages were forced to participate in public discussions about Judaism vs Christianity, the rational given was that the Jews were the lost lambs. But whenever it became clear that the lost lambs rejected their saviors, the latter felt scorned and could start murdering Jews indiscriminately. Almost the same talks about any alliances with Judaism and Christianity, they say there is no future for such an alliance: Christians reject Jewish traditions as pre-Christian, while Jews thrice a day curse Christians in their daily prayers. There - at that page, one of hyperlinks - tells about that Evangelical channels have stopped working, because Jewish groups had complained about Christian preaching. |
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 5, 2020 17:15:26 GMT
The heck? I consider myself evangelical but I could care less if it's a Jew or someone else. The way I like doing it with them (or anyone else) is just show them what it says and that they're the opposite of that. If they don't care then I just pat them on the back basically with a smile and walk away wishing them all the best. No hard feelings whatsoever. And if we cross paths again it's just a, "Hey, what's up? How's it going?". So yeah just a friendly greeting/talk. So the link doesn't apply to everyone. The more dramatic here is that it's supposed to be no neutral areas there. And at the same time a possible dialogue would be a sign of an appearance of some new points toward the discussion. Can you nod that as their so your interpretation of Bible is the same? If you're discussing with them, such key points as the resurrection and no need of circumcision will barrier the dialogue. |
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Post by karl on Oct 6, 2020 3:39:29 GMT
The alliance between Evangelical Christians and the right-wing of Israel has tactically been a success for the latter, but could prove to be a strategic disaster. When Jews in the middle ages were forced to participate in public discussions about Judaism vs Christianity, the rational given was that the Jews were the lost lambs. But whenever it became clear that the lost lambs rejected their saviors, the latter felt scorned and could start murdering Jews indiscriminately. Almost the same talks about any alliances with Judaism and Christianity, they say there is no future for such an alliance: Christians reject Jewish traditions as pre-Christian, while Jews thrice a day curse Christians in their daily prayers. There - at that page, one of hyperlinks - tells about that Evangelical channels have stopped working, because Jewish groups had complained about Christian preaching.
On an individual level, people of different faiths will usually be able to peacefully agree to disagree. But when it manifests as political power, any alliance will be one of expedience. Conservative Christians who proclaim to love Israel and the Jewish people, base it on an expectation that Jews one day will convert to Christianity. And those who don't, will be doomed. While most of the Jews who appreciate Christian support for Israel, couldn't care less about Christianity.
Christian support for Israel is based on that both parts tone down the differences between them. This has given the illusion that the conflict between Christianity and Judaism is a thing of the past. But it's rather a can of worms that no one has chosen to open for a while.
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Post by karl on Oct 6, 2020 3:59:40 GMT
The heck? I consider myself evangelical but I could care less if it's a Jew or someone else. The way I like doing it with them (or anyone else) is just show them what it says and that they're the opposite of that. If they don't care then I just pat them on the back basically with a smile and walk away wishing them all the best. No hard feelings whatsoever. And if we cross paths again it's just a, "Hey, what's up? How's it going?". So yeah just a friendly greeting/talk. So the link doesn't apply to everyone.
This reminds me of a quote by Charlie Chaplin:
"Man as an individual is a genius. But men in the mass form the headless monster, a great, brutish idiot that goes where prodded."
Well intended individuals will have difficulty preventing violent clashes between opposing groups, once the public discussions between them become polarised beyond reason.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 6, 2020 4:50:45 GMT
Almost the same talks about any alliances with Judaism and Christianity, they say there is no future for such an alliance: Christians reject Jewish traditions as pre-Christian, while Jews thrice a day curse Christians in their daily prayers. There - at that page, one of hyperlinks - tells about that Evangelical channels have stopped working, because Jewish groups had complained about Christian preaching.
On an individual level, people of different faiths will usually be able to peacefully agree to disagree. But when it manifests as political power, any alliance will be one of expedience. Conservative Christians who proclaim to love Israel and the Jewish people, base it on an expectation that Jews one day will convert to Christianity. And those who don't, will be doomed. While most of the Jews who appreciate Christian support for Israel, couldn't care less about Christianity.
Christian support for Israel is based on that both parts tone down the differences between them. This has given the illusion that the conflict between Christianity and Judaism is a thing of the past. But it's rather a can of worms that no one has chosen to open for a while.
Absolutely agree with you last thought. Must say the thought is truly impressive by itself. The past is the past, and our current problems, perhaps, are what is important now, today. A look at (to?) the past is a present day look. Israel lives its today's problems no matter what exactly are they say. Surely, the same is fair for the others, but it's just a sign of a possible union, of a hope for dialogue. I know it's hard to believe in the dialogue to happen successfully, but being dogmatised no chances are and will be. As for me Judaism is one of the most dogmatised religions, so to get a talk with them is aka having a dialogue with a person who doesn't believe a word of ya. Many can openly say how various and progressive Christianity has been all the time. It hasn't lost neither its stimul (e.g. toward Jews conversion to Christianity), nor to play a role as a saver. Personally, I see this as a sign from the heavens; Christianity as a boat has rubbed through all the scrutiny all the woes and miseries, holding the Scriptures and saving its faith. ...Yes, there are lots of different pros and cons; Christianity has still some me dogmatical views, but it believes in a someone's conversion. It's like a doctor who doesn't drop his work trying to do all what he can to save the life. And as the fact modern Judaism has major in their teaching what can be called Pharisee's teachings. As far as I know unlike Christianity Jews took Pharisees as enough enlightened and enough wise tutors. (I wonder how did they understanding the bright and uncovered hypocrisy of the lasts? To invite the Trojan horse is the same to nod Pharisee's words.) |
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