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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 2, 2020 3:56:07 GMT
Emperor Constantine, before he was emperor, grew up during the reign of his father Constantine Chlorus, who was a devout follower of the cult called Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun". This cult was made an official cult of the Roman Empire in 274AD by emperor Aurelian. Constantine's mother, Empress Helena, was a devout Christian. Constantine, however, took after his father, and became a follower of Sol Invictus aka Mithras, Apollo, Phoebus, Ra, etc. Mithras, or Mehr, is an Iranian Zoroastrian angelic divinity of covenant, light, oath as well as justice and an all-seeing protector of Truth, the guardian of cattle, the harvest, and of water. Apollo is a god of archery, music and dance, truth and prophecy, healing and diseases, the sun and light, poetry, and much more. Phoebus is the Roman name of Apollo. Ra was seen as the ruler of the world, the god of the sun, order, kings, and the sky. In every religion that has a sun god, the sun is seen as the bestower of light and life to the totality of the cosmos; with his unblinking, all-seeing eye, he is the stern guarantor of justice; with the almost universal connection of light with enlightenment or illumination, and is the source of wisdom. Kings ruled by the power of the sun and claimed descent from the sun. Solar deities, gods personifying the sun, are sovereign and all-seeing. Constantine associated his victory over Maxentius in 312AD with the power of the sun. He viewed Sol Invictus as very similar to the Christian God and he decided that Sol Invictus was the god of the Christians. His adoption of Christianity in the Roman Empire was a matter of political strategy, not religious conviction; he needed Christians on his side if he was going to keep control of his empire. After his confessed conversion to Christianity, Constantine continued to mint coins with images of the sun god on them until 326AD at the earliest. Sol Invictus behind Constantine In 330AD, Constantine erected a column with himself at the top depicted as the sun god. This column became the center of the Forum of Constantine in the city of Byzantium, today known as the Cemberlitas Square in Istanbul. The sign Constantine said God told him to conquer under is the Chi-Rho. However, this symbol is not a new symbol and appears on coins from Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt(Greek ruled) that were minted from 246-222BC. It can be seen underneath the eagle... Another Egyptian coin And another Also the symbol can be interpreted as a simple combination of two Nordic runes. and The former is "wunjo", meaning "joy" or "bliss". The latter is "gebo", meaning "sacrifice". A very clever combination and rendition of runes to say the least. These runes were first created in the 2nd century, before the time of Constantine. All of this only begs questions about the truthfulness of Constantine's apparent conversion to Christianity. Why would he continue to mint coins with the sun god on them and his face on the other side? Why would he erect columns with statues of himself depicted as a sun god on top? Why would he recycle pagan symbols as Christian symbols and say he saw them in a vision? Not only are these questions raised, but others are too, especially about the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, both of which claim to be the true Christian Church, but based that on the same history and the claim that Constantine the Great converted to Christianity and turned the Roman Empire into a Christian nation. Both institutions use scripture as their forte in saying that Church has all the authority, 1 Timothy 3:15, however, how does one come to conclusion that said Church is the true Church? What is the authority on what is the true Church, the Church that Jesus Christ established? It could only be God, and His word. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This means scripture is God breathed and is our final authority and our guide for judging all things. 1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. And with that we can be certain that the evidence given, and this is only but a small amount of evidence, there is inconsistency with the claims of the Church of Rome, Catholic and Orthodox.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 2, 2020 4:32:09 GMT
I am really bad with history but it's evident that whoever made such coins wasn't a Christian and followed something else. That's as much as can be seen.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 2, 2020 4:55:11 GMT
As I understand it he converted to Christianity but saw no conflict between that and following the sun god. Pagans from Rome tended not to get the whole idea of, "I am the Lord your God and you shall worship and serve me only". This was a problem in Northern Europe as well.
The first Anglo Saxon king who converted to Christianity went home and told his wife who proceeded to scold him for rejecting the gods of his ancestors. He then went over to the shrine he had devoted to Odin, Thor, Frey, and the like and added another notch for Jesus Christ not understanding why he couldn't do that.
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Post by greatestiam on Aug 9, 2020 23:03:08 GMT
Constantine's triumphal arch says it all I think. Not anything Christian on it.
There is a story of his death bed conversion, but even if true, I think it would have been for political and not religious reasons and thus bogus.
Regards DL
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 9, 2020 23:23:33 GMT
This is well-known and there's nothing unusual. The key word here is cultural biases.
Thinking Constantine as a pagan is the same as viewing Christ as a Rabbi. "Intentions" of emperors that times were weird because of their life and tastes. You can't just leave your emperors post having no relevant rules and rights here.
Presenting this info in a style like this showing how far the accuser stays from those principles and ideas. But I can't say I'm surprised. It's said americans almost never respect any other traditions. This is probably the root of many other illusions that are seen from the side of this idea. If one has taken out all the traditions in history trying to arrange as it was the same you have now - this is pure insanity.
There were such "narrators" as E. Drisch who said that we have to rationalize the actions of any people (including historical persons) to understand them. The same weird idea had spoiled all the dreams of Skinner too. You cannot just ask why Jesus didn't buy Coca-Cola for everyone, because such suppositions are ridiculous.
The same is here. Before blaming the Emperor's actions one must know the history that there were rules (as the ones now - singing hymns, raising flag, celebrating hanuka, etc), and they had to be done whatever faith you'd leaped into, and - and this part would be not easy to understand for an american - it wasn't surprise to see delusions of the emperor if there were no such conditions, no such deliverance system, no adequate united principles. The folks there did not watch television as trevor thought, so they couldn't just follow to the emperor as a finger clap.
Even that "fast" accepting Christianity turned into its opposite side. If the guy had looked closer to the history he would notice about the next emperor who was the pure pagan - because they (old pagans) resisted to new rules intensively. The Father did the genius work trying to understand principles of how to govern a government being a Christian (before: the Christians were hiding by the vaults and cemeteries to not be noticed; they were illegal).
Accusing Catholics or Orthodox by so arrogancy is the great privilege for not Protestant churches. I don't know why someone us trying to find this nonsense as "the real proof". Joseph Smith is the one who tried to do the same. Trevor, are you Joseph Smith's alter ego =)?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 11, 2020 7:28:29 GMT
This is well-known and there's nothing unusual. The key word here is cultural biases. Thinking Constantine as a pagan is the same as viewing Christ as a Rabbi. "Intentions" of emperors that times were weird because of their life and tastes. You can't just leave your emperors post having no relevant rules and rights here. Presenting this info in a style like this showing how far the accuser stays from those principles and ideas. But I can't say I'm surprised. It's said americans almost never respect any other traditions. This is probably the root of many other illusions that are seen from the side of this idea. If one has taken out all the traditions in history trying to arrange as it was the same you have now - this is pure insanity. There were such "narrators" as E. Drisch who said that we have to rationalize the actions of any people (including historical persons) to understand them. The same weird idea had spoiled all the dreams of Skinner too. You cannot just ask why Jesus didn't buy Coca-Cola for everyone, because such suppositions are ridiculous. The same is here. Before blaming the Emperor's actions one must know the history that there were rules (as the ones now - singing hymns, raising flag, celebrating hanuka, etc), and they had to be done whatever faith you'd leaped into, and - and this part would be not easy to understand for an american - it wasn't surprise to see delusions of the emperor if there were no such conditions, no such deliverance system, no adequate united principles. The folks there did not watch television as trevor thought, so they couldn't just follow to the emperor as a finger clap. Even that "fast" accepting Christianity turned into its opposite side. If the guy had looked closer to the history he would notice about the next emperor who was the pure pagan - because they (old pagans) resisted to new rules intensively. The Father did the genius work trying to understand principles of how to govern a government being a Christian (before: the Christians were hiding by the vaults and cemeteries to not be noticed; they were illegal). Accusing Catholics or Orthodox by so arrogancy is the great privilege for not Protestant churches. I don't know why someone us trying to find this nonsense as "the real proof". Joseph Smith is the one who tried to do the same. Trevor, are you Joseph Smith's alter ego =)? Naturally, a pagan society, which is what the Roman Empire was, would have a pagan culture. So it is no surprise that a pagan society would hijack Christian doctrine/practices and twist it into their own to bring in people of a religion that was spreading quickly at the time, which is what appears to be evident here. Christ is a Rabbi, the only Rabbi(Matthew 23:8 ). I wouldn't be apologetic for an emperor who seemed to very clearly see himself as a god, so much so as to build a giant column with a statue of himself depicted as a sun god on top. His intentions seem very clear, life and tastes. Tu quoque; my being an American doesn't put me at any disadvantage in understanding anything. What I am pointing out in the OP is the relation between Constantine's actions such as erecting statues of himself depicted as a sun god and minting coins with the sun god on them while claiming to be a Christian convert. Nevermind the chi-rho which is quite obviously pagan. One should find it difficult considering the context of the Bible, that Constantine was only simply and innocently mixing paganism with Christianity. It was deliberate, the mixture of pagan culture with Christian doctrine which still holds itself today as evidence in the Church of Rome, Catholic and Orthodox. It cannot be denied, it is evident in symbology and relation between pagan mythology and the doctrines set forth by the Roman Church.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 11, 2020 7:52:11 GMT
This is well-known and there's nothing unusual. The key word here is cultural biases. Thinking Constantine as a pagan is the same as viewing Christ as a Rabbi. "Intentions" of emperors that times were weird because of their life and tastes. You can't just leave your emperors post having no relevant rules and rights here. Presenting this info in a style like this showing how far the accuser stays from those principles and ideas. But I can't say I'm surprised. It's said americans almost never respect any other traditions. This is probably the root of many other illusions that are seen from the side of this idea. If one has taken out all the traditions in history trying to arrange as it was the same you have now - this is pure insanity. There were such "narrators" as E. Drisch who said that we have to rationalize the actions of any people (including historical persons) to understand them. The same weird idea had spoiled all the dreams of Skinner too. You cannot just ask why Jesus didn't buy Coca-Cola for everyone, because such suppositions are ridiculous. The same is here. Before blaming the Emperor's actions one must know the history that there were rules (as the ones now - singing hymns, raising flag, celebrating hanuka, etc), and they had to be done whatever faith you'd leaped into, and - and this part would be not easy to understand for an american - it wasn't surprise to see delusions of the emperor if there were no such conditions, no such deliverance system, no adequate united principles. The folks there did not watch television as trevor thought, so they couldn't just follow to the emperor as a finger clap. Even that "fast" accepting Christianity turned into its opposite side. If the guy had looked closer to the history he would notice about the next emperor who was the pure pagan - because they (old pagans) resisted to new rules intensively. The Father did the genius work trying to understand principles of how to govern a government being a Christian (before: the Christians were hiding by the vaults and cemeteries to not be noticed; they were illegal). Accusing Catholics or Orthodox by so arrogancy is the great privilege for not Protestant churches. I don't know why someone us trying to find this nonsense as "the real proof". Joseph Smith is the one who tried to do the same. Trevor, are you Joseph Smith's alter ego =)? Naturally, a pagan society, which is what the Roman Empire was, would have a pagan culture. So it is no surprise that a pagan society would hijack Christian doctrine/practices and twist it into their own to bring in people of a religion that was spreading quickly at the time, which is what appears to be evident here. Christ is a Rabbi, the only Rabbi(Matthew 23:8 ). I wouldn't be apologetic for an emperor who seemed to very clearly see himself as a god, so much so as to build a giant column with a statue of himself depicted as a sun god on top. His intentions seem very clear, life and tastes. Tu quoque; my being an American doesn't put me at any disadvantage in understanding anything. What I am pointing out in the OP is the relation between Constantine's actions such as erecting statues of himself depicted as a sun god and minting coins with the sun god on them while claiming to be a Christian convert. Nevermind the chi-rho which is quite obviously pagan. One should find it difficult considering the context of the Bible, that Constantine was only simply and innocently mixing paganism with Christianity. It was deliberate, the mixture of pagan culture with Christian doctrine which still holds itself today as evidence in the Church of Rome, Catholic and Orthodox. It cannot be denied, it is evident in symbology and relation between pagan mythology and the doctrines set forth by the Roman Church. What should be obvious - I don't try to say the emperor was indeed, truly Christian. Opposite to Catholics, the Orthodox know this fact, about Constantine and even some others (they were no saints in our usual meaning of this), and it perfectly know that his behaviour was not what should have taken for anyone; there were no reason to repeat his sinnerful actions, but - he can't be judged as an ordinary person as you've involved him to be. You can't judge someone if there's no law. There were no such church jury mechanisms to evaluate his actions. So, yes, your point that Constantine might have never been converted as his followers - is true. But so what? This is the same as objecting Christ to be circumcised. My point is - it is not correct to judge historical actions of someone by putting him into any contemporary situation. Role of Constantine was major, any historician (who is not uncare or who's not indifferent to Christianity) would consider it. And his role in Christianity as his saint - is in his deeds: "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James (Jacob) 2:20)
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Post by Διαμονδ on Aug 11, 2020 8:38:30 GMT
To understand the whole situation, read Eusebius of Caesarea(because the opinions of any person from the 21st century about a person from the 4th century are very strange)...He writes that Constantine realized the falsity of paganism after the victory over the pagans . Of course, Constantine was a period under the influence of paganism. Christianity he adopted on the eve death. (although there are versions that slightly early) Constantine was the Roman Emperor, i.e. the 4th Kingdom in the book of Daniel. Hmm, what does the Scripture say about Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, and Cyrus??(1 and 2 kings of the book of Daniel) however, it is not certain that their religious views were perfect, so there is no serious reason to worry about some of the mistakes of Constantine. This sign ☧ (ΧΡΙΣΤΌΣ) are letters of the Koine Greek(the language of the Scripture) All symbols including Scandinavian runes were influenced by Semitic languages. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)
9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 1:9) 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11) 24. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Revelation 21:24)
This is what concerns symbolism and religious views in the Church.
To be continued...
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Post by Διαμονδ on Aug 11, 2020 8:52:49 GMT
Naturally, a pagan society, which is what the Roman Empire was, would have a pagan culture. So it is no surprise that a pagan society would hijack Christian doctrine/practices and twist it into their own to bring in people of a religion that was spreading quickly at the time, which is what appears to be evident here. Christ is a Rabbi, the only Rabbi(Matthew 23:8 ). I wouldn't be apologetic for an emperor who seemed to very clearly see himself as a god, so much so as to build a giant column with a statue of himself depicted as a sun god on top. His intentions seem very clear, life and tastes. Tu quoque; my being an American doesn't put me at any disadvantage in understanding anything. What I am pointing out in the OP is the relation between Constantine's actions such as erecting statues of himself depicted as a sun god and minting coins with the sun god on them while claiming to be a Christian convert. Nevermind the chi-rho which is quite obviously pagan. One should find it difficult considering the context of the Bible, that Constantine was only simply and innocently mixing paganism with Christianity. It was deliberate, the mixture of pagan culture with Christian doctrine which still holds itself today as evidence in the Church of Rome, Catholic and Orthodox. It cannot be denied, it is evident in symbology and relation between pagan mythology and the doctrines set forth by the Roman Church. What should be obvious - I don't try to say the emperor was indeed, truly Christian. Opposite to Catholics, the Orthodox know this fact, about Constantine and even some others (they were no saints in our usual meaning of this), and it perfectly know that his behaviour was not what should have taken for anyone; there were no reason to repeat his sinnerful actions, but - he can't be judged as an ordinary person as you've involved him to be. You can't judge someone if there's no law. There were no such church jury mechanisms to evaluate his actions. So, yes, your point that Constantine might have never been converted as his followers - is true. But so what? This is the same as objecting Christ to be circumcised. My point is - it is not correct to judge historical actions of someone by putting him into any contemporary situation. Role of Constantine was major, any historician (who is not uncare or who's not indifferent to Christianity) would consider it. And his role in Christianity as his saint - is in his deeds: "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James (Jacob) 2:20) I just guess that the DK is concerned that Constantine was not a member of W.A.S.P religious group, in any case, this is not a conflict between denominations, but a conflict between views of God. For Orthodox and Catholic people, God is present in reality( at any time)...in short just wondering what Neo-Protestants American opinion about people have a 'perfect religious beliefs' from among the rulers of world history... maybe George Washington or Andrew Jackson?
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 11, 2020 9:07:39 GMT
This is true. And there even more: signs like that were discovered previously in caves and cemeteries where the earliest Christians hid. There were even more "weird" to dktrav1488 images, because Christians - used codes and mysterious symbols to not be exposured. And, oh my God, what symbols had they been using? Anchs, pentagrams, strange images... So, what w will you say, dktrav1488? Would the earliest Christians pagans?!..
This must be madness when such trivial and plain interpretations occur.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 11, 2020 9:19:50 GMT
What should be obvious - I don't try to say the emperor was indeed, truly Christian. Opposite to Catholics, the Orthodox know this fact, about Constantine and even some others (they were no saints in our usual meaning of this), and it perfectly know that his behaviour was not what should have taken for anyone; there were no reason to repeat his sinnerful actions, but - he can't be judged as an ordinary person as you've involved him to be. You can't judge someone if there's no law. There were no such church jury mechanisms to evaluate his actions. So, yes, your point that Constantine might have never been converted as his followers - is true. But so what? This is the same as objecting Christ to be circumcised. My point is - it is not correct to judge historical actions of someone by putting him into any contemporary situation. Role of Constantine was major, any historician (who is not uncare or who's not indifferent to Christianity) would consider it. And his role in Christianity as his saint - is in his deeds: "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" (James (Jacob) 2:20) I just guess that the DK is concerned that Constantine was not a member of W.A.S.P religious group, in any case, this is not a conflict between denominations, but a conflict between views of God. For Orthodox and Catholic people, God is present in reality( at any time)...in short just wondering what Neo-Protestants American opinion about people have a 'perfect religious beliefs' from among the rulers of world history... maybe George Washington or Andrew Jackson? That is to be true :) You expressed in a couple of words what I've tried to explain to DK. He ignores the context completely. That is inappropriated. Surely his thesis that Constantine might stay a pagan isn't impossible. However the method he used is definitely WASP-type.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 11, 2020 15:41:04 GMT
What is WASP? Started thinking this went from a topic on Constantine to insects. Yuck.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 11, 2020 17:23:38 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 11, 2020 17:53:19 GMT
That still has nothing to do with the thread. Whether a person was white or black or asian or latino they could still tell that whoever made those coins were into some weird gods no matter where they were located in the universe unless they were actually blind to see the drawings on the coins. Or if they thought they were just designs and didn't stand for gods. So I guess you just need functioning eyes that see and know the bible to know they were not Christian figures.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,694
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
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Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 11, 2020 23:47:45 GMT
That still has nothing to do with the thread. Whether a person was white or black or asian or latino they could still tell that whoever made those coins were into some weird gods no matter where they were located in the universe unless they were actually blind to see the drawings on the coins. Or if they thought they were just designs and didn't stand for gods. So I guess you just need functioning eyes that see and know the bible to know they were not Christian figures. The term WASP is not so much of racial thing as it is an ethnic thing. WASP refers to English Americans and their culture. Of note is that English Americans are associated with certain protestant denominations and sects that are ubiquitous throughout the United States because the United States was founded and historically dominated by English Americans thus being a "WASP country". He mentions WASP protestantism in relation to DKtrav88 because he's an American protestant. He also mentioned this in relation me as coming from "WASP Baptist culture." I think he is severely oversimplifying things though in his view of the United States. For instance it is the Ulster Scots of Appalachia that forged the religiosity of the Bible Belt where i'm from not the English, and American protestant is not a synonym for WASP protestant. Lutherans, Anabaptists, Presbyterians and the like do not have their origin in England among many other protestant religious denominations. Also this country was not just settled by Anglo Saxons. Different parts of the country were settled by different groups of people for different reasons creating vastly different regional cultures and not all of settlers were English or even from the British Isles. The dominant cultures have their origins in the British Isles because the USA was a collection of British colonies but the Dutch, Spanish, and French settled parts of the United States as well and left their cultures in those regions.
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