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Post by jonbain on Aug 23, 2018 22:27:03 GMT
And for those who still naively believe that the Bible is infallible, and must always be taken at face value, and not questioned; note that there is an error by one of them in the times. So do you reckon that God just sort of turned off the Sun one morning or afternoon? (whichever it is) I do believe there is a rational explanation, but it pains me to see that many people still cannot accept that there requires an analytical approach to reading the Bible. That some of it has been lost in translation, or metaphors have been taken literally. I will withhold what I believe to be the correct reading until I have seen how others interpret this.
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Post by just10sp on Aug 27, 2018 5:39:09 GMT
I solved it!!! THIS DEBATE IS FINISHED!!! game over gg 2 ez
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aragwen
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Post by aragwen on Aug 27, 2018 13:21:15 GMT
You need to understand what God is saying in the first place, because many people don't they argue the bible contradicts itself, you must know there are many parables and metaphors in the scriptures whose meaning is not immediately apparent. I try to take the things recorded there with the accuracy and meaning I think the writer intended. God assumed we would apply logic when it came to reading the scriptures but few do, I have even heard people say God is not logical but that can't be true. God is the sole self-existent source of all being—everything that exists is in some way dependent on God for its existence including logic and the laws of physics. Okay, well believing that the sun and the moon were stopped in the sky for a day in Joshua 10 isn’t illogical. An omnipotent God can make this happen easily.
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aragwen
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Post by aragwen on Aug 27, 2018 13:23:35 GMT
No it isn't logical, for a start the sun doesn't move the earth moves around the sun so what would happen if the earth stopped.
If the Earth stopped spinning suddenly, the atmosphere would still be in motion with the Earth's original 1100 mile per hour rotation speed at the equator. All of the land masses would be scoured clean of anything not attached to bedrock. This means rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, your pet dog, and so on, would be swept away into the atmosphere.
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aragwen
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Post by aragwen on Aug 27, 2018 13:28:28 GMT
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aragwen
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Post by aragwen on Aug 27, 2018 13:29:15 GMT
Seriously, I thought a forum was for debating and exchanging ideas.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 27, 2018 15:57:29 GMT
No it isn't logical, for a start the sun doesn't move the earth moves around the sun so what would happen if the earth stopped. If the Earth stopped spinning suddenly, the atmosphere would still be in motion with the Earth's original 1100 mile per hour rotation speed at the equator. All of the land masses would be scoured clean of anything not attached to bedrock. This means rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, your pet dog, and so on, would be swept away into the atmosphere. You really don’t believe God has the power to stop the earth from spinning, do you? I’m not sure why people limit the power of God, putting Him in a box and saying “this is what He is able to do and this is what He is not able to do based on my understanding of reality”... rather than just believing scripture and the miracles done by Him. You really cheapen God’s power. You’re a man of science, yes, not a man of God.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Aug 27, 2018 16:07:43 GMT
WoW What a long lasting and absolutely not ensured dispute. Shrug
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Post by just10sp on Aug 27, 2018 17:33:41 GMT
No it isn't logical, for a start the sun doesn't move the earth moves around the sun so what would happen if the earth stopped. If the Earth stopped spinning suddenly, the atmosphere would still be in motion with the Earth's original 1100 mile per hour rotation speed at the equator. All of the land masses would be scoured clean of anything not attached to bedrock. This means rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, your pet dog, and Well you claim to know God’s omnipotence and yet say God is limited, meaning not omnipotent and then claim you’re the only one with the answer. Needless to say at the Sun does move, it has an orbit that takes 230 million years, to around 245 million years and it’s orbit is around the center of The Milky Way. Galaxies move, and so of course the Sun does!
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 27, 2018 18:53:57 GMT
Seriously, I thought a forum was for debating and exchanging ideas. It's is. Many type of "Christians" here too. Lots of debates happen here all the time. I'm in a debate with Clovis here currently
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Post by jonbain on Sept 29, 2018 11:54:00 GMT
God plans to not only destroy the earth but do signs in the sky first. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Revelation:6:12 He will do several things in this one verse. God, who's all powerful, will make an earthquake occur just because He wanted one to occur, He will darken the sun, and change the moon. Would be dark times on earth literally with the land shaking. Plus...those who think that the world can't be changed from it's preset laws is mistaken. Please, research something about it. Government has been changing the course of hurricanes and such. Weather can be controlled now by humans to a limit. Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17). So, first, we can see that Jesus did not come to get rid the Law or make it invalid. Instead, he came to fulfill the true meaning and purpose of what the Law was about.
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Post by jonbain on Sept 29, 2018 12:01:44 GMT
No it isn't logical, for a start the sun doesn't move the earth moves around the sun so what would happen if the earth stopped. If the Earth stopped spinning suddenly, the atmosphere would still be in motion with the Earth's original 1100 mile per hour rotation speed at the equator. All of the land masses would be scoured clean of anything not attached to bedrock. This means rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, your pet dog, and so on, would be swept away into the atmosphere. You really don’t believe God has the power to stop the earth from spinning, do you? I’m why people limit the power of God, putting Him in a box and saying “this is what He is able to do and this is what He is not able to do based on my understanding of reality”... rather than just believing scripture and the miracles done by Him. You really cheapen God’s power. You’re a man of science, yes, not a man of God. Ah, but it is you that cheapens God by imagining that he has a fairy-tale approach to the Cosmos. Regardless of one's belief on the details of the matter, the laws of nature and God's will are one and the same. Your belief is to suggest that God is inefficient, such that he needs to make laws, then arbitrarily break them in a whimsical way to prove his existence to us mere insects by halting an entire solar system, and suspending all the laws of momentum and other chemical processes as well. The alternative is that scribes misinterpreted ancient languages, and that God is perfectly efficient. You equate a Book with God, in effect, you are idol-worshiping a book. One that has already been shown to have many translation errors. Thou, I still think these errors are mostly confined to the older parts, and that the New Testament is far better. Even then, the parable of the loaves and fishes is misunderstood by almost everybody. That narrative, the bible itself points out is not a literal account, but has a deliberate hidden meaning.
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Post by jonbain on Sept 29, 2018 12:27:04 GMT
You need to understand what God is saying in the first place, because many people don't they argue the bible contradicts itself, you must know there are many parables and metaphors in the scriptures whose meaning is not immediately apparent. I try to take the things recorded there with the accuracy and meaning I think the writer intended. God assumed we would apply logic when it came to reading the scriptures but few do, I have even heard people say God is not logical but that can't be true. God is the sole self-existent source of all being—everything that exists is in some way dependent on God for its existence including logic and the laws of physics. Okay, well believing that the sun and the moon were stopped in the sky for a day in Joshua 10 isn’t illogical. An omnipotent God can make this happen easily. Well I looked Joshua 10 extensively. The original account is not Joshua's, but from the book of Jasher which is not in the Bible. Here is the best of that I could find : www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/88.htmIt does not actually itself add any new detail that I could see, and many other accounts claim that the original book of Jasher is lost, and this is a fraud. I have no way of deciding that purely on its own terms. You claim "God can make this happen easily", your own criterion being the "ease" with which He could do this makes it the true explanation. But the idea that the Sun and Moon stood still is far more "easily" explained by realizing that leap-years are a Roman (post Jesus) method of keeping an accurate calendar. Before Roman times there were an enormous variety of methods used for accurate date-keeping, the two most common being a solar and a lunar calendar. More advanced peoples for that time would use both of these because it was the single most important idea to avoid famine by ensuring that crops were not planted at the wrong time. After looking at more than 100 websites it is clear that a common practice all over the world is to add or subtract days to the calendar at important events. Thus Jesus' Crucifixion and the events in Joshua are prime examples of adjustment to the calendar. The Sun and Moon together "not moving" would be that they adjusted both the solar and the lunar calendar at this event. Now lets look at this from a moral perspective. Religion is here to serve that people care for one another, and to avoid terror like war through correct morals. There is thus no higher purpose on the earth than to ensure that everyone has enough to eat by avoiding famine. The most difficult part of this in those times was an accurate calendar. That is why the likes of Copernicus were primarily tasked with the religious function of mapping the seasons properly. If 365.24219 days per year is rounded off to 365.25 then after 1000 years there will be a 1 week discrepancy, enough to cause the crops to fail, people to starve, panic, steal, and kill one another. That is why astronomy and astrophysics used to be one and the same as religion and morality; the Greeks called this philosophy. The aTheist who rejects morals is just as sinful as the Theist who rejects science and philosophy for the sake of fairytale descriptions of God's sacred laws of nature. Selah!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Sept 29, 2018 12:34:00 GMT
You really don’t believe God has the power to stop the earth from spinning, do you? I’m why people limit the power of God, putting Him in a box and saying “this is what He is able to do and this is what He is not able to do based on my understanding of reality”... rather than just believing scripture and the miracles done by Him. You really cheapen God’s power. You’re a man of science, yes, not a man of God. Ah, but it is you that cheapens God by imagining that he has a fairy-tale approach to the Cosmos. Regardless of one's belief on the details of the matter, the laws of nature and God's will are one and the same. Your belief is to suggest that God is inefficient, such that he needs to make laws, then arbitrarily break them in a whimsical way to prove his existence to us mere insects by halting an entire solar system, and suspending all the laws of momentum and other chemical processes as well. The alternative is that scribes misinterpreted ancient languages, and that God is perfectly efficient. You equate a Book with God, in effect, you are idol-worshiping a book. One that has already been shown to have many translation errors. Thou, I still think these errors are mostly confined to the older parts, and that the New Testament is far better. Even then, the parable of the loaves and fishes is misunderstood by almost everybody. That narrative, the bible itself points out is not a literal account, but has a deliberate hidden meaning. Maybe I don't fully agree with your position...but it's definitely a fact that some people have a too literal approach to Scripture + in their views limit the possibilities of God and his creation.
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Post by jonbain on Sept 29, 2018 12:48:10 GMT
Ah, but it is you that cheapens God by imagining that he has a fairy-tale approach to the Cosmos. Regardless of one's belief on the details of the matter, the laws of nature and God's will are one and the same. Your belief is to suggest that God is inefficient, such that he needs to make laws, then arbitrarily break them in a whimsical way to prove his existence to us mere insects by halting an entire solar system, and suspending all the laws of momentum and other chemical processes as well. The alternative is that scribes misinterpreted ancient languages, and that God is perfectly efficient. You equate a Book with God, in effect, you are idol-worshiping a book. One that has already been shown to have many translation errors. Thou, I still think these errors are mostly confined to the older parts, and that the New Testament is far better. Even then, the parable of the loaves and fishes is misunderstood by almost everybody. That narrative, the bible itself points out is not a literal account, but has a deliberate hidden meaning. Maybe I don't fully agree with your position...but it's definitely a fact that some people have a too literal approach to Scripture + in their views limit the possibilities of God and his creation. God has given us power over own lives, the good and evil that befalls us are a consequence of how we choose to think about issues such as this. Too many people take a fatalist/determinist perspective - in both the Theist and the aTheist community. The analysis I reveal here shows the extent to which war is a consequence of our own mental laziness. Many people reject God because of war. But we were given the freedom of choice to think deeply or to revert to "easy" explanations. This issue is not at all resolved. It ricochets into far deeper problems, like the bad and lazy thinking that has allowed such sophistry as Einstein's Relativity to flourish. This is a harbinger of the hell which awaits this planet.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Sept 29, 2018 14:59:05 GMT
You really don’t believe God has the power to stop the earth from spinning, do you? I’m why people limit the power of God, putting Him in a box and saying “this is what He is able to do and this is what He is not able to do based on my understanding of reality”... rather than just believing scripture and the miracles done by Him. You really cheapen God’s power. You’re a man of science, yes, not a man of God. Ah, but it is you that cheapens God by imagining that he has a fairy-tale approach to the Cosmos. Regardless of one's belief on the details of the matter, the laws of nature and God's will are one and the same. Your belief is to suggest that God is inefficient, such that he needs to make laws, then arbitrarily break them in a whimsical way to prove his existence to us mere insects by halting an entire solar system, and suspending all the laws of momentum and other chemical processes as well. The alternative is that scribes misinterpreted ancient languages, and that God is perfectly efficient. You equate a Book with God, in effect, you are idol-worshiping a book. One that has already been shown to have many translation errors. Thou, I still think these errors are mostly confined to the older parts, and that the New Testament is far better. Even then, the parable of the loaves and fishes is misunderstood by almost everybody. That narrative, the bible itself points out is not a literal account, but has a deliberate hidden meaning. sorry Jon but you don’t even realize how much you’re cheapening God in your last paragraph facepalm in where you also accuse me of doing something that I don’t do, misrepresenting what I believe. You can believe everything is a metaphor in the bible if you’d like, God gave you that right, or is freedom of choice a metaphor too? Facepalm
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