x
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Post by x on Jun 30, 2018 0:02:11 GMT
I don't understand it, please explain it to me.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 3, 2018 4:25:15 GMT
Oh, I see. Can I get a bible verse for the part I bolded? But doesn't Jesus only remove sins by His blood? Isn't another thing that removes sin like purgatory...limiting the power of Christ on the cross for dying for sins? I hate to just throw verses out and not explain them in totality, but there are many of which that bolster the doctrine of Purgatory- listed thus: In response to the bolded:Hebrews 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which one cannot see God Further verses being evidence of Purgatory:Matthew 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect James 3:2 - we fall short in many aspects Revelation 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter Heaven 1 John 5:16-17 - degrees of sin distinguished James 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death 2 Samuel 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for sin Matthew 5:26 - you will not be released until paid the last penny Matthew 12:32 - sin against the Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next Matthew 12:36 account for every idle word on judgement day 2 Maccabees 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin 1 Corinthians 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire 1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in prison 2 Timothy 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus 1 Corinthians 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead Are there chronological verses that you have which say when purgatory happens after people die on earth?
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MEGA
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Post by MEGA on Jul 3, 2018 4:47:33 GMT
It’s not biblical. There’s nothing in the Bible that supports the idea of purgatory, it’s a Catholic myth. ^ This.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 3, 2018 6:26:23 GMT
Is Christ’s blood not the propitiation for our sins? Romans 3:19-31 KJV [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Are not our sins forgiven by the grace of God? Galatians 2:16-21 KJV [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
There is no purgatory, if there was Christ would be dead in vain. Christ is not dead in vain.
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Post by christopher on Jul 3, 2018 11:56:09 GMT
There is a video that explains the Catholic perspective on Purgatory but it is rather lengthy.
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Post by theringdingster on Jul 4, 2018 0:48:26 GMT
Is Christ’s blood not the propitiation for our sins? Romans 3:19-31 KJV [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Are not our sins forgiven by the grace of God? Galatians 2:16-21 KJV [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. There is no purgatory, if there was Christ would be dead in vain. Christ is not dead in vain. In response to Christ's sacrifice and sin being forgiven by the grace of God: CCC 619 "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (I Cor 15:3). CCC 620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19). CCC 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19). CCC 622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28), that is, he "loved [his own] to the end" (Jn 13:1), so that they might be "ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers" (I Pt 1:18). CCC 623 By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19). Also, before it comes up... James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 4, 2018 3:15:28 GMT
Is Christ’s blood not the propitiation for our sins? Romans 3:19-31 KJV [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say , at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Are not our sins forgiven by the grace of God? Galatians 2:16-21 KJV [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. There is no purgatory, if there was Christ would be dead in vain. Christ is not dead in vain. In response to Christ's sacrifice and sin being forgiven by the grace of God: CCC 619 "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (I Cor 15:3). CCC 620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19). CCC 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19). CCC 622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28), that is, he "loved [his own] to the end" (Jn 13:1), so that they might be "ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers" (I Pt 1:18). CCC 623 By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19). Also, before it comes up... James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead I quoted those passages because they contradict the idea of purgatory. According to catholic doctrine, purgatory is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," holding that "certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." And that entrance into Heaven requires the "remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven," for which indulgences may be given which remove "either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin," such as an "unhealthy attachment" to sin. Christ died once for sins. If purgatory is a place where “some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification”, then why did Christ die on the cross? Christ’s blood cleansed us of all sin, 1 John 1:7 KJV [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. We are purified unto Christ who gave Himself for us, Titus 2:13-14 KJV [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. We, the sons of God, are made pure by our faith in Him. Whoever abides in Christ does not sin. 1 John 3:1-9 KJV [1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The idea of purgatory contradicts scripture left and right.
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Post by theringdingster on Jul 4, 2018 4:49:48 GMT
In response to Christ's sacrifice and sin being forgiven by the grace of God: CCC 619 "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (I Cor 15:3). CCC 620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19). CCC 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19). CCC 622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28), that is, he "loved [his own] to the end" (Jn 13:1), so that they might be "ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers" (I Pt 1:18). CCC 623 By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19). Also, before it comes up... James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead I quoted those passages because they contradict the idea of purgatory. According to catholic doctrine, purgatory is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," holding that "certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." And that entrance into Heaven requires the "remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven," for which indulgences may be given which remove "either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin," such as an "unhealthy attachment" to sin. Christ died once for sins. If purgatory is a place where “some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification”, then why did Christ die on the cross? Christ’s blood cleansed us of all sin, 1 John 1:7 KJV [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. We are purified unto Christ who gave Himself for us, Titus 2:13-14 KJV [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. We, the sons of God, are made pure by our faith in Him. Whoever abides in Christ does not sin. 1 John 3:1-9 KJV [1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The idea of purgatory contradicts scripture left and right. Quoting Catholic Answers (https://www.catholic.com/tract/purgatory) "It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. ... Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because '[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness' (Heb. 12:11)."
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 4, 2018 23:09:05 GMT
I quoted those passages because they contradict the idea of purgatory. According to catholic doctrine, purgatory is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," holding that "certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." And that entrance into Heaven requires the "remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven," for which indulgences may be given which remove "either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin," such as an "unhealthy attachment" to sin. Christ died once for sins. If purgatory is a place where “some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification”, then why did Christ die on the cross? Christ’s blood cleansed us of all sin, 1 John 1:7 KJV [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. We are purified unto Christ who gave Himself for us, Titus 2:13-14 KJV [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. We, the sons of God, are made pure by our faith in Him. Whoever abides in Christ does not sin. 1 John 3:1-9 KJV [1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The idea of purgatory contradicts scripture left and right. Quoting Catholic Answers (https://www.catholic.com/tract/purgatory) "It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. ... Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because '[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness' (Heb. 12:11)." “Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time” Where is scripture does it say this? Christ is the redemption, He already died once for sins. Once you believe on Him, that’s it, you’re redeemed, there is no time involved.
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Post by theringdingster on Jul 7, 2018 5:50:19 GMT
Quoting Catholic Answers (https://www.catholic.com/tract/purgatory) "It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. ... Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because '[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness' (Heb. 12:11)." “Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time” Where is scripture does it say this? Christ is the redemption, He already died once for sins. Once you believe on Him, that’s it, you’re redeemed, there is no time involved. Quote Catholic Answers, "Justification: Process or One-Time Deal?" (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/justification-process-or-one-time-deal) JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION AS FUTURE AND CONTINGENT
"The major part of the puzzle here that our Protestant friends are missing is that there are many biblical texts revealing both justification and salvation to have a future and contingent sense as well as these we have mentioned that show a past sense. In other words, justification and salvation also have a sense in which they are not complete in the lives of believers. Perhaps this is most plainly seen in Galatians 5:1-5. I mentioned verse four above. For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. The Greek word used in verse 6 and here translated as "righteousness" is dikaiosunes, which can be translated either as “righteouness” or as “justification.” In fact, Romans 4:3, which we quoted above, uses a verb form of this same term for justification. Now the fact that St. Paul tells us we “wait for the hope of [justification]” is very significant. As we said before, that which one “hopes” for is something one does not yet possess. It is still in the future. Romans 8:24 tells us: For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. The context of Galatians is clear: St. Paul warns Galatian Christians that if they attempt to be justified—even though they are already justified in one sense, through baptism, according to Gal. 3:27—by the works of the law, they will fall from the grace of Christ. Why? Because they would be attempting to be justified apart from Christ and the gospel of Christ! St. Paul makes very clear in Romans and elsewhere that “those who are in the flesh cannot please God” ( Rom. 8:8, cf. Gal. 5:19-21). “The flesh” is a reference to the human person apart from grace. The truth is: this example of justification being in the future is not an isolated case. There are numerous biblical texts that indicate both justification and salvation to be future and contingent realities, in one sense, as well as past completed realities in another sense: Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. Romans 6:16: Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Gr.dikaiosunen- “justification”) Matt. 10:22: And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Romans 13:11: For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. I Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 7, 2018 5:51:48 GMT
“Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time” Where is scripture does it say this? Christ is the redemption, He already died once for sins. Once you believe on Him, that’s it, you’re redeemed, there is no time involved. Quote Catholic Answers, "Justification: Process or One-Time Deal?" (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/justification-process-or-one-time-deal) JUSTIFICATION AND SALVATION AS FUTURE AND CONTINGENT
"The major part of the puzzle here that our Protestant friends are missing is that there are many biblical texts revealing both justification and salvation to have a future and contingent sense as well as these we have mentioned that show a past sense. In other words, justification and salvation also have a sense in which they are not complete in the lives of believers. Perhaps this is most plainly seen in Galatians 5:1-5. I mentioned verse four above. For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. The Greek word used in verse 6 and here translated as "righteousness" is dikaiosunes, which can be translated either as “righteouness” or as “justification.” In fact, Romans 4:3, which we quoted above, uses a verb form of this same term for justification. Now the fact that St. Paul tells us we “wait for the hope of [justification]” is very significant. As we said before, that which one “hopes” for is something one does not yet possess. It is still in the future. Romans 8:24 tells us: For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. The context of Galatians is clear: St. Paul warns Galatian Christians that if they attempt to be justified—even though they are already justified in one sense, through baptism, according to Gal. 3:27—by the works of the law, they will fall from the grace of Christ. Why? Because they would be attempting to be justified apart from Christ and the gospel of Christ! St. Paul makes very clear in Romans and elsewhere that “those who are in the flesh cannot please God” ( Rom. 8:8, cf. Gal. 5:19-21). “The flesh” is a reference to the human person apart from grace. The truth is: this example of justification being in the future is not an isolated case. There are numerous biblical texts that indicate both justification and salvation to be future and contingent realities, in one sense, as well as past completed realities in another sense: Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. Romans 6:16: Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Gr.dikaiosunen- “justification”) Matt. 10:22: And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Romans 13:11: For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. I Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." I’m not gonna sit here and argue with a website. If you wanna have a discussion, let me know.
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angel
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Post by angel on Aug 8, 2018 7:18:23 GMT
I don't understand it, please explain it to me. i dont believe in pugortory.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 8, 2018 7:29:14 GMT
I don't understand it, please explain it to me. i dont believe in pugortory. Don't Catholics believe in that?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 31, 2018 13:31:28 GMT
“The idea of purgatory has roots that date back into antiquity. A sort of proto-purgatory called the "celestial Hades" appears in the writings of Plato and Heraclides Ponticus and in many other pagan writers. This concept is distinguished from the Hades of the underworld described in the works of Homer and Hesiod. In contrast, the celestial Hades was understood as an intermediary place where souls spent an undetermined time after death before either moving on to a higher level of existence or being reincarnated back on earth. Its exact location varied from author to author. Heraclides of Pontus thought it was in the Milky Way; the Academicians, the Stoics, Cicero, Virgil, Plutarch, the Hermetical writings situated it between the Moon and the Earth or around the Moon; while Numenius and the Latin Neoplatonists thought it was located between the sphere of the fixed stars and the Earth.” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 31, 2018 18:58:18 GMT
“The idea of purgatory has roots that date back into antiquity. A sort of proto-purgatory called the "celestial Hades" appears in the writings of Plato and Heraclides Ponticus and in many other pagan writers. This concept is distinguished from the Hades of the underworld described in the works of Homer and Hesiod. In contrast, the celestial Hades was understood as an intermediary place where souls spent an undetermined time after death before either moving on to a higher level of existence or being reincarnated back on earth. Its exact location varied from author to author. Heraclides of Pontus thought it was in the Milky Way; the Academicians, the Stoics, Cicero, Virgil, Plutarch, the Hermetical writings situated it between the Moon and the Earth or around the Moon; while Numenius and the Latin Neoplatonists thought it was located between the sphere of the fixed stars and the Earth.” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_PurgatorySo people take their wisdom from philosophers instead of God? And science proved there's no purgatory in any of those places they thought in was in. Just shows how knowlegeable they are...which is not at all Shrug
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