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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 6, 2018 1:34:21 GMT
Noticed some of you who use OT as your beliefs claim that you don't need to follow the commandments but only to have common sense and live not like a farmer but businessman basically. If I understood this correctly by reading some posts....but where are the OT verses for this claim?
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 6, 2018 6:53:42 GMT
I assume you mean me. Let me start with Psalm 119:44-45 which I would translate as:
"And I will keep your (God's) teaching continually forever. And I will walk in freedom because I seek your principles."
This well expresses my view. The OT is not a law book, it is a book of ethical teaching. And this ethical teaching is designed to ensure our freedom, not to bind us to outdated laws. This isn't to say that all Torah laws are outdated, but we have to judge the reasoning behind them to decide. So for example, the reasoning behind the law against tattoos still applies. The reasoning behind the law against shellfish does not. The Ten Commandments were designed to be eternal, so the reasoning behind them will always apply.
I follow more religious "laws" than most Christians do because many Torah laws still make sense. Of course I keep sabbath. I have no tattoos. I don't lend with interest to anyone in my community (meaning mosque). I give charity (to my mosque). And many more.
I think you are confused about farmers and businessmen. The OT position is to avoid jobs that will enslave you. In OT times, the shepherd had more freedom than the farmer, so the OT prefers shepherd to farmers. Today it is the employee who has no freedom, so this should be avoided. Being a small businessman is much better. But being high up in a big corporation or in banking is no good either. This is like Joseph in the OT who had power but no freedom. The ideal is Jacob.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 6, 2018 7:46:27 GMT
I assume you mean me. Let me start with Psalm 119:44-45 which I would translate as: "And I will keep your (God's) teaching continually forever. And I will walk in freedom because I seek your principles." This well expresses my view. The OT is not a law book, it is a book of ethical teaching. And this ethical teaching is designed to ensure our freedom, not to bind us to outdated laws. This isn't to say that all Torah laws are outdated, but we have to judge the reasoning behind them to decide. So for example, the reasoning behind the law against tattoos still applies. The reasoning behind the law against shellfish does not. The Ten Commandments were designed to be eternal, so the reasoning behind them will always apply. I follow more religious "laws" than most Christians do because many Torah laws still make sense. Of course I keep sabbath. I have no tattoos. I don't lend with interest to anyone in my community (meaning mosque). I give charity (to my mosque). And many more. I think you are confused about farmers and businessmen. The OT position is to avoid jobs that will enslave you. In OT times, the shepherd had more freedom than the farmer, so the OT prefers shepherd to farmers. Today it is the employee who has no freedom, so this should be avoided. Being a small businessman is much better. But being high up in a big corporation or in banking is no good either. This is like Joseph in the OT who had power but no freedom. The ideal is Jacob. So what teaching did God give? Can you provide verses for these teachings? Also any verses for what it means to walk in freedom?
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 6, 2018 8:06:27 GMT
So what teaching did God give? Can you provide verses for these teachings? Also any verses for what it means to walk in freedom? Many of the Torah laws are followed immediately with the reasoning. For example the dietary laws are explained as "it is unclean for you" meaning clearly that this is a sanitary/health issue. When the death penalty is prescribed, it says "you must purge the evil from you" meaning that the reasoning is not for revenge or deterrence, but simply to be rid of that person. This means that life in prison meets the same goal, but just wasn't practical at that time. I have a number of posts explaining the reasoning for things: www.mikraite.org/5-The-Sabbath-tp146.htmlwww.mikraite.org/No-Tattoos-tp22.htmlThere is something to be learned from almost anything in the OT. I organized weekly OT readings that anyone is free to attend, and we discuss the lessons there. www.friendsofislam.org/Online-Old-Testament-Readings-tp7.htmlThe concept of freedom is central to the OT in the context of the exodus from Egypt. The concept of the Jubilee is designed to prevent people from losing their freedom due to debt.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 17, 2018 4:49:20 GMT
This is where I'm confused. You used words like "dietary laws" and "Torah laws" but before that you said "The OT is not a law book".
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 17, 2018 5:12:59 GMT
This is where I'm confused. You used words like "dietary laws" and "Torah laws" but before that you said "The OT is not a law book". Laws are (should be) the application of ethics to a particular environment. The OT contains laws as illustrations of applying OT ethics. The explanations are provided to explain the ethical reasoning behind the laws.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 17, 2018 6:18:53 GMT
This is where I'm confused. You used words like "dietary laws" and "Torah laws" but before that you said "The OT is not a law book". Laws are (should be) the application of ethics to a particular environment. The OT contains laws as illustrations of applying OT ethics. The explanations are provided to explain the ethical reasoning behind the laws. So there are laws to follow and it explains why we must follow them with the reasonings, correct?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Mar 17, 2018 16:40:20 GMT
OT - can not exist without a supplement! For Christians, these are the Gospels, for the Jews of the Talmud and Kabbalah, for the Muslims the Koran!
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 18, 2018 21:35:49 GMT
So there are laws to follow and it explains why we must follow them with the reasonings, correct? No, please reread what I wrote.
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 18, 2018 21:37:51 GMT
OT - can not exist without a supplement! For Christians, these are the Gospels, for the Jews of the Talmud and Kabbalah, for the Muslims the Koran! This is true for most people. It requires intelligence and knowledge of history and science to follow the OT alone. This is why I recommend Islam for most people.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 19, 2018 2:19:27 GMT
So there are laws to follow and it explains why we must follow them with the reasonings, correct? No, please reread what I wrote. Yeah following them because ethical in observing a situation?
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Post by fschmidt on Mar 19, 2018 2:52:27 GMT
Yeah following them because ethical in observing a situation? No, the laws apply to the situation of that time. Many laws no longer make sense, like not eating shellfish. But the principle still applies, like not eating rotten food.
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Post by Elizabeth on Mar 19, 2018 3:39:35 GMT
Yeah following them because ethical in observing a situation? No, the laws apply to the situation of that time. Many laws no longer make sense, like not eating shellfish. But the principle still applies, like not eating rotten food. Yes, ok. But what about nonfood laws? All are in effect still?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Mar 19, 2018 6:09:08 GMT
The Old Testament Commandments of the Law of Moses, according to the apostle Paul, have great significance "before the coming of faith" in the Savior Jesus Christ. "The law was for us a schoolmaster to Christ, that we might be justified by faith; after the coming of faith, we are no longer under the guidance of a schoolmaster "(Gal. 3.24-25). Every law has a compulsory effect. The Mosaic Law reflects the will of God, which must also be enforced. When a person born again in the sacrament of holy baptism and consecrated by the Holy Spirit can follow the apostle Paul about himself: "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2.20), he does the will of God not forcibly, as a slave or a hired worker, but as a loving son. In other words, such a person follows the will of God not for his duty, but for love. The New Testament writings generalize the will of God with one commandment, the commandment of love. "He who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not covet the stranger, and all others are in this word: "Love your neighbor as yourself"!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Mar 19, 2018 6:31:01 GMT
No, the laws apply to the situation of that time. Many laws no longer make sense, like not eating shellfish. But the principle still applies, like not eating rotten food. Yes, ok. But what about nonfood laws? All are in effect still? Only some spiritual laws about which I wrote + some rules of worship to God! This is from the point of view of the Orthodox Church! Bloody sacrifice is canceled!
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