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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 2, 2018 4:33:04 GMT
Apostles John and Peter preached Jesus as the stone to all people in the below verses. Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Only the stone saves which is also the chief cornerstone.
And these apostles encountered threats and so on from the people. Some apostles fell away later and some held on strong. Are you brave enough to spread Jesus as the stone who provides salvation no matter what?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 9:23:22 GMT
You weren't there. No need to bring you into what you don't know about. Oh forensic evidence which has many limitations? Yes, what about it? He wouldn't be able to prove the four gospels are a false testimony anyway I have already proved it. You must have missed it.
"In Matthew 21:22 Jesus states 'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer'. You obviously claim to be a sincere believer (you have faith and do not doubt). I want you to ask in prayer for malaria to be wiped from the face of the Earth tomorrow. Jesus has said that you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer as long as you believe. There is no qualification on what you can ask for. So go ahead and let me know the result. I will be disappointed if you start making excuses as to why you can't pray for such a humane cause".
If you can't meet the above challenge then the Bible lies. That is false testimony.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 7, 2018 15:27:53 GMT
You can't admit that your prayer wasn't sincere. What a shame. Instead of putting words into my mouth I suggest you go back and read my original answer. I have nothing further to add. Since you are still fixated on the question of my sincerity (your escape clause when God does his usual non-appearance act) there is nothing further to say. If you want to have a conversation, answer the question I posed. Stop dodging it. Here is that question again in case you have forgotten: "A new thought just occurred to me. You asked me to pray and if I did so sincerely God would reveal himself to me. Now you are contradicting yourself by saying that God does things only according to his will. Therefore prayers are useless. If God wanted to reveal himself to me he would do so with or without prayer. Is that correct?"
Still awaiting an answer.
I made a point, that being someone who does not believe in a God cannot sincerely pray to that God so your self-qualifying yes is actually a no. Your question wasn’t directed at me, or did you fail to notice who you’re responding to?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 7, 2018 16:01:45 GMT
He wouldn't be able to prove the four gospels are a false testimony anyway I have already proved it. You must have missed it.
"In Matthew 21:22 Jesus states 'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer'. You obviously claim to be a sincere believer (you have faith and do not doubt). I want you to ask in prayer for malaria to be wiped from the face of the Earth tomorrow. Jesus has said that you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer as long as you believe. There is no qualification on what you can ask for. So go ahead and let me know the result. I will be disappointed if you start making excuses as to why you can't pray for such a humane cause". If you can't meet the above challenge then the Bible lies. That is false testimony.
This is just your failure to either understand or simply read scripture. Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven that if it was His will that He not let Him go through the suffering He is about to endure. So if something a Christian prays for is not according to the will of God then it won’t be given. God isn’t going to give me a Ferrari if I pray for one, what good will it do me? Matthew 7:7-12 says God only gives us good things, asking for malaria to be eradicated from the face of the earth tomorrow doesn’t sound like something that be God’s will. Sickness, disease, and death is on earth because of sin. God isn’t going to remove death and disease from a world that loves sin. So there is a condition to the promise of “ask and receive”: what we ask for must be good in God’s estimation. Similarly, if a child asks his father for something the father knows to be hurtful, the request is denied(if that father is a good father). The child may be frustrated and unhappy when he doesn’t get what he asked for, but he should trust his father. On the other end, when a child asks for something that their father knows is good for them, their father will provide it eagerly(if he is a good father) because he loves his child. There’s also the the condition that we must pray in Jesus’s name, that meaning to pray on the basis of Jesus’s authority. Jesus always did the will of the Father in heaven(gospel of John), so Jesus isn’t going to intercede for us to the Father something that isn’t His will. 1 John 5:14 says this plainly. Our requests in our prayers must be in agreement with the will of God.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 1:13:50 GMT
Instead of putting words into my mouth I suggest you go back and read my original answer. I have nothing further to add. Since you are still fixated on the question of my sincerity (your escape clause when God does his usual non-appearance act) there is nothing further to say. If you want to have a conversation, answer the question I posed. Stop dodging it. Here is that question again in case you have forgotten: "A new thought just occurred to me. You asked me to pray and if I did so sincerely God would reveal himself to me. Now you are contradicting yourself by saying that God does things only according to his will. Therefore prayers are useless. If God wanted to reveal himself to me he would do so with or without prayer. Is that correct?"
Still awaiting an answer.
I made a point, that being someone who does not believe in a God cannot sincerely pray to that God so your self-qualifying yes is actually a no. I said it was a qualified "yes" and that is what I meant. Are you calling me a liar?
It was in the same post which you did respond to. It appears that you found the question too difficult so you would rather focus on putting words into my mouth instead of answering questions about your faith. Is that about the gist of it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 1:23:38 GMT
I have already proved it. You must have missed it.
"In Matthew 21:22 Jesus states 'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer'. You obviously claim to be a sincere believer (you have faith and do not doubt). I want you to ask in prayer for malaria to be wiped from the face of the Earth tomorrow. Jesus has said that you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer as long as you believe. There is no qualification on what you can ask for. So go ahead and let me know the result. I will be disappointed if you start making excuses as to why you can't pray for such a humane cause". If you can't meet the above challenge then the Bible lies. That is false testimony.
This is just your failure to either understand or simply read scripture. I'm only interested in what Jesus actually said, not what you imagine he should have said. You can't deal with his words so you manufacture a whole bunch of apologetics out of thin air which have nothing to do with the verses in question.
Now I see how this game works. You ask me to prove that the testimony of the gospels is untrue. I provide an example. Then you just outright deny the plain meaning of the words coming from Jesus's own mouth. I'm sorry but if that is the game you are going to play then I am out. I'll keep providing examples of how the gospels are lying though. Stay tuned. What I will not do is play the apologetics game where you try and tell us what the verses should have said instead of what they are actually saying.
If the gospels stories are evidence that Jesus was a real person then the Harry Potter books must be evidence that Harry was a real boy who went to wizard college at Hogwarts. Right?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 8, 2018 1:27:00 GMT
I made a point, that being someone who does not believe in a God cannot sincerely pray to that God so your self-qualifying yes is actually a no. I said it was a qualified "yes" and that is what I meant. Are you calling me a liar? It was in the same post which you did respond to. It appears that you found the question too difficult so you would rather focus on putting words into my mouth instead of answering questions about your faith. Is that about the gist of it? I know what you said, I repeated what you said and I am saying that you are a liar yes, because as someone(you) who doesn’t believe in a God, your prayer to that God cannot ever be sincere because you don’t believe in that God that you’re praying to. You won’t even acknowledged the possibility of a God’s existence. So your prayer is to nothing because that is what you believe in, nothing.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 8, 2018 1:36:39 GMT
This is just your failure to either understand or simply read scripture. I'm only interested in what Jesus actually said, not what you imagine he should have said. You can't deal with his words so you manufacture a whole bunch of apologetics out of thin air which have nothing to do with the verses in question. Now I see how this game works. You ask me to prove that the testimony of the gospels is untrue. I provide an example. Then you just outright deny the plain meaning of the words coming from Jesus's own mouth. I'm sorry but if that is the game you are going to play then I am out. I'll keep providing examples of how the gospels are lying though. Stay tuned. What I will not do is play the apologetics game where you try and tell us what the verses should have said instead of what they are actually saying. If the gospels stories are evidence that Jesus was a real person then the Harry Potter books must be evidence that Harry was a real boy who went to wizard college at Hogwarts. Right? Yep and these are His words, Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. You simply don't know scripture, so why you are arguing it I have no clue, but be my guest if you want to make fool of yourself. Also, this is why God won't answer your prayers, Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. I don't even know why you are talking about it, if you cannot be convinced otherwise. It isn't a real discussion.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 8, 2018 2:20:37 GMT
You could have been honest with yourself and everyone else and said no your prayer wasn't sincere because you don't believe in the God you prayed to I stated that it was a provisional "yes" given my atheism. I was as sincere as it is possible to be as an atheist. I could have not been more clear. If you continue to insist that I am a liar (ignoring my testimony) I will be forced to report you for abuse. Stop calling people liars when they have been fully honest with their answers. You have been warned. It's actually the Bible that says you're a liar. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. You can report the Bible if you want to shrug
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 7:11:07 GMT
If I report you it will be for what you have said. You have called me a liar. Are you now denying it? I believe what the Bible says, it says you are a liar. Dk , honestly that's no way to carry on a conversation even though it wont be taken seriously to moderate u ,
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 7:18:30 GMT
I believe what the Bible says, it says you are a liar. Reported. Mr Black i will remove his immature ways of carrying on a conversation , but i got a question ,, why u feel like debating with religious fanatics , when u know they wont absorb what u're saying ,,, is it rationale to dedicate time into such an effort that doesnt reap a conclusion? i would prefer in such a debate one could simply present a counter argument and move on ,, caz if debaters keep refining it ,, its gets to a personal level which seemingly is the case here or u can chose your audience carefully that can uphold a conversation in a meaningful way even though they have contrasting views .. Dk i'snt your best bet considering that., considering he is outright calling u a liar, so there is no point proceeding with him
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 10:19:50 GMT
Mr Black i will remove his immature ways of carrying on a conversation , but i got a question ,, why u feel like debating with religious fanatics , when u know they wont absorb what u're saying ,,, is it rationale to dedicate time into such an effort that doesnt reap a conclusion? i would prefer in such a debate one could simply present a counter argument and move on ,, caz if debaters keep refining it ,, its gets to a personal level which seemingly is the case here or u can chose your audience carefully that can uphold a conversation in a meaningful way even though they have contrasting views .. Dk i'snt your best bet considering that., considering he is outright calling u a liar, so there is no point proceeding with him. Well, this is a discussion forum and I enjoy discussing religious subjects, especially Christian beliefs. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion forum?
As to DK, I agree that he exhibits a tendency to hostility when he is losing an argument. How about I put him on ignore. Is that a reasonable compromise?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 13:08:55 GMT
Mr Black i will remove his immature ways of carrying on a conversation , but i got a question ,, why u feel like debating with religious fanatics , when u know they wont absorb what u're saying ,,, is it rationale to dedicate time into such an effort that doesnt reap a conclusion? i would prefer in such a debate one could simply present a counter argument and move on ,, caz if debaters keep refining it ,, its gets to a personal level which seemingly is the case here or u can chose your audience carefully that can uphold a conversation in a meaningful way even though they have contrasting views .. Dk i'snt your best bet considering that., considering he is outright calling u a liar, so there is no point proceeding with him. Well, this is a discussion forum and I enjoy discussing religious subjects, especially Christian beliefs. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion forum?
As to DK, I agree that he exhibits a tendency to hostility when he is losing an argument. How about I put him on ignore. Is that a reasonable compromise?
no, this has nothing to do with me raising an objection , yes here we discuss , but i was simply asking u , why engage in a discussion which is to no avail, so basically i am just sharing a thought with u .. not in any way in the capacity of a moderator.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 1:33:37 GMT
Well, this is a discussion forum and I enjoy discussing religious subjects, especially Christian beliefs. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion forum?
As to DK, I agree that he exhibits a tendency to hostility when he is losing an argument. How about I put him on ignore. Is that a reasonable compromise?
no, this has nothing to do with me raising an objection , yes here we discuss , but i was simply asking u , why engage in a discussion which is to no avail, so basically i am just sharing a thought with u .. not in any way in the capacity of a moderator. I guess my response would be, how do we know that it is to no avail until we try? When debating some subject we are each trying to persuade others to our point of view. It depends on who has the better arguments. I will concede that sometimes I should probably let it go when it gets heated and turns into polemics rather than rational discussion. If someone responds to me I feel obliged to respond to them even when I know it is probably pointless. Perhaps I could try to work on that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 8:04:55 GMT
no, this has nothing to do with me raising an objection , yes here we discuss , but i was simply asking u , why engage in a discussion which is to no avail, so basically i am just sharing a thought with u .. not in any way in the capacity of a moderator. I guess my response would be, how do we know that it is to no avail until we try? When debating some subject we are each trying to persuade others to our point of view. It depends on who has the better arguments. I will concede that sometimes I should probably let it go when it gets heated and turns into polemics rather than rational discussion. If someone responds to me I feel obliged to respond to them even when I know it is probably pointless. Perhaps I could try to work on that. correct ! it was pretty evident eventually in the discussion that it was going no where , so a rational person like u said , would have put brakes way earlier before it got ugly ... i gotta remove the bad aura of posts now . There are many ppl on hold, considering whether to engage in a discussion or not , so if they notice such a flux they would be deterred , plus i like to keep a clean record of discussions here anyways . One more question ., why are u so interested in Christianity debates .. considering u are an atheist .. like iam free of religion as well . so i really dont bother even reading and going into these sections .. but as a moderator i am forced to now .. but i understand not everyone thinks like me or have the same mindset .. so may i know your reason ? is it like u enjoy putting them down or something else ..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 12:49:00 GMT
I guess my response would be, how do we know that it is to no avail until we try? When debating some subject we are each trying to persuade others to our point of view. It depends on who has the better arguments. I will concede that sometimes I should probably let it go when it gets heated and turns into polemics rather than rational discussion. If someone responds to me I feel obliged to respond to them even when I know it is probably pointless. Perhaps I could try to work on that. correct ! it was pretty evident eventually in the discussion that it was going no where , so a rational person like u said , would have put brakes way earlier before it got ugly ... i gotta remove the bad aura of posts now . There are many ppl on hold, considering whether to engage in a discussion or not , so if they notice such a flux they would be deterred , plus i like to keep a clean record of discussions here anyways . One more question ., why are u so interested in Christianity debates .. considering u are an atheist .. like iam free of religion as well . so i really dont bother even reading and going into these sections .. but as a moderator i am forced to now .. but i understand not everyone thinks like me or have the same mindset .. so may i know your reason ? is it like u enjoy putting them down or something else .. It's more about persuading them that their beliefs may be wrong. Sowing the seeds of doubt if you like. I know that they are wrong and I want them to know that they are wrong. (Yes, I understand that they think exactly the same thing. The problem is that they have typically been indoctrinated into their beliefs and I am the opposite - I broke away from such indoctrination. Also they insist that blind faith is a virtue but they never apply it to any other area of their life). I think that it is a duty we all have to help our fellow man to overcome delusion. Some may argue that we should just leave them alone as people believing illogical things does no great harm. If they want to engage in wishful thinking about an afterlife and it gives them comfort then let them. Unfortunately it does do harm because religions are constantly trying to meddle in worldly affairs. I could make a long list of the harms to society from religion. Therefore, in my view, atheists need to push back. If we remain passive then religions will eventually get their way. Watch "A Handmaid's Tale" if you want a cautionary story on what happens if we remain apathetic to what is happening.
Having said all that, I know that it is very difficult to reason people out of a belief that they haven't reasoned themselves into. We can but try though, right?
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