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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 7:58:49 GMT
www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/johns-story-why-i-left-eastern-orthodoxy-for-evangelicalism/“I would have caved had I not begun reading the Bible the Baptists had given me,” John says with a smile. “As I began reading Scripture, I understood Jesus to be the only way to God. I realized I did not need the Orthodox church or even a priest to be my mediator, for Jesus was the mediator between me and the Father.” Though John does not use the term, it is clear from his testimony that he had acquired an unshakable belief in the Reformation doctrine of sola scriptura. “I realized that the Bible was the authority, even over the Church. The Bible was true, and the Church with all its traditions and rituals was wrong.” What do those who are members of the Orthodox Church think of this and the rest of what is said in the article?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:45:03 GMT
Протестанта не волнует вся правда! Они видят Библии и верят в нее суть любой религии истоки Библии в том что она передавалась от апостолов(вместе с Преданиям) к ранней церкви(Отцы церкви) их не волнует... конечно человек спасаеться по благодати Божьей, но без правильного подхода этот путь будет труднее чем православному! Будучи семинаристом я беседовал с представителями различных конфессий, как протестантами, так и с буддистами, мусульманами. Мне всё сие ведомо Я знаю, что Библия для них ценна. И стоит заметить, что их забота об этом достойна уважения. Да и кроме того, протестантизм считается едва ли не самым лучшим течением христианства, в котором изучение Библии достигло впечатляющих результатов. Понятно, что sola scripture важная составляющая, которая преграждает путь для попыток неверного понимания Писаний, тем не менее, Предание вряд ли можно обойти стороной, - но - даже отбрасывая Предание или учитывая его, для меня совершенно остаётся непонятным индивидуалистическая позиция, которая коренится в самом этом решении. Я вижу причину этой проблемы не столько в вопросах Теологии или предмете изучения Писания, сколько в социально-политических аспектах её. Так, например, Бенджамин Франклин считал, что достаток человека заключается в реализации его гедонистических, индивидуалистических потребностях, и поэтому успешный бизнесмен, согласно его принципам, будет представлять собой идеал человека достигшего блага. То же можно сказать и в отношении государства, так, например, Томас Мор в небезызвестной "Утопии" рассказывал о преимуществах торговли обособленного типа, построенного на примате внутреннего утилитаристского характера, и, таким образом, торговое государство обретает благо тогда, когда его граждане реализуют самодостаточную черту государства, накапливая богатство ради самого этого принципа накопления богатства. То, что у Франклина говорилось об индивиде, то у Мора говорилось о государстве. Мор и Франклин - только примеры. Адам Смит или Джон Стюарт Милль, как и многие другие, фактически повторяли мантру, которую можно выразить примером золотоискателей: они заражены наживой, и их счастье состоит в обретении богатства ради богатства, чтобы в конечном счёте обретать независимость. Собственно, это стремление зарабатывания ради самого зарабатывания - это своего рода стимул противодействия зависимости (как бы это парадоксально ни звучало). Только все эти стимулы в конечном счёте приводят к полному обособлению нравственному. Здесь же и параллель - обособление нравственное и отсутствие духовности. В данном случае, духовность - это как раз то, что объединяет; независимость не должно является самоцелью и не может быть, так же как и стремление к индивидуализации, которое из этой независимости может следовать. Это видно даже на примерах современной экономики, когда индивидуализация проявляется в том, что каждый фактически становится поневоле трейдером самого себя, т.е. мы становимся автоматически продавцами самих себя. Если ранее такое и было, то, как правило, это было связано с каким-то ремеслом или особым умением, тогда как сейчас, с учётом технологического прогресса, эти навыки лишаются всяких привелегий и в ход вступают какие-то совершенно завиральные идеи. Как у Пелевина в "Generation П" было: "Не нужны нам н***й никакие творцы! Нам нужны криэйторы!". Вот, теперь криэйторы аки продавцы воздуха наполняют маркет-вселенную. Я прошу прощения, что столько тут понаписал, но я повторяю - эти проблемы гораздо значительнее, и протестантизм является лишь отражением этих вещей. Да, возможно, что он послужил причиной (я не могу здесь ничего сказать точно, это пусть социальная история исследует это), но в любом случае - и это самое главное, и это то самое, что я просто обязан говорить: нельзя отделять понимание Библии от всего остального!.. Беда в том, что я фактически остаюсь не услышан, хотя об этом уже давно писали американские философы, вроде Аласдера Макинтайра (в "После добродетели"), и давно усвоили, что никакого обособленного понимания, как и привилегии в индивидуализированном чтении (например, Библии) нет. Да это попросту невозможно. История и культура обязаны включатся в исследование предмета. Поэтому, отрицать Предание или Отцов - смешно.
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Post by just10sp on Apr 21, 2018 22:45:36 GMT
Thank you, Elizabeth for your answering, sorry, that I haven't answered in time (I was busy and... Well, today I have a too long and crazy day!.. I meet my friends which I haven't saw for ages. Well... crazy day..). Well, I want to say that I love you, DKTrav88 , Διαμονδ , just10sp and the rest of my friends of Arktos. You guys are awesome, and I like to chat with you very much!! Ok, getting back to comments... I'm sorry that I won't use precise quotations and won't be answering at precise themes, but I want to summarize my answers, and to show my position on it. Firstly, I see that Protestants use individualistic understanding of Bible, which I mean as - everyone is able to understand the Bible. For example, you said that doctors, or teachers could be bad, and also that the one could cure oneself, and the one could teach oneself, if it would be possible. There's no objection at this while we understand that if a doctor, or a teacher is able to understand the path of medicine, or pedagogy, then everyone else can. I clearly understand it, but my thesis is not on 'ability to get a discipline/subject', but on atomization (individualization; well, the term 'atomization' belongs to Hanna Arendt) of society. I mean surely, each man or woman can understand Bible, and he/she may avoid services of someone else to understand the words of God. (I want to add here, that priests in Orthodoxy, as any other persons, are not authority as the same level as Gospels, or Acts, or Paul... they just do what they can do best, and also they continue to make rituals... Well, I leave this topic to another times, because I don't want to wide the subject.) I'm worrying of this individualization, because I see this a big problem. Technology is the one of something that comes to be medium between us, because it breaks simple relationship. But, even taking another examples we can see that our abilities of curing, teaching, translating, programming... etc are left out with another things. I can't break apart my understanding of Bible, books of philosophy, science, music, etc on the one hand, and processes in society on the other hand. I try to gather things, because all the processes which goes around are grouped. That's why I insist not using of ability of understanding Bible by a man/a woman, but on more higher things. Reading Bible we may not see another important things; and this is not a call to leave teaching of Bible, but a claim to leave our questions of methods of interpretations (or just of simple reading, if dktrav88 don't agree with me on it), but on some other important things that hides behind it. I beg you to understand me correctly: Reading/understanding/teaching/interpretating/... of Bible is not enough for us all, and separating it from other things may be very dangerous. What profit would be for us while reading Bible we would bury something good? Luv ya all! This is the best post I have seen on Arktos! I just wanted to say that the fact you need to learn to speak/read before being able to read the bible is evident and in fact obvious that we need a good general base of knowledge before we can correctly read scripture and that it is not only necessary but required. This is fact ;p Humans are a result of what we have accepted and rejected, as well as our input and output, so we have to be careful what we accept. As with any group of friends or people with the same views, similarities, you are instantly drawn to them because likes attract likes, the same as opposites attract in intimacy, so because protestants are of the same mind, beliefs, and views they are instantly drawn to each other naturally and instinctively. This does not mean they put aside society as a whole. The nice thing about religion morespecifically, Christians are that we are taught to love all, and pray for those you don't (the evil people.) So it may not be as individualistic as you think! It's like a brotherhood where we are accepted and people like to be around those who accept us. As with Elizabeth I believe in unity of faith, unfortunately people have different interpretations, and not everyone agrees to wear the same glove. We are all people and most people know that in fact even though we see ourselves as smart for understanding the Bible, the rest of the world see’s us as dumb and that we believe in fairy tales ;p so it is hard to be in communion when we write so much of the Bible into our hearts that it changes us. Our very being pushes them away or we hinder ourselves and keep it on the down low. So we do want the best for everyone it's just easier for us to fit in with our denomination. Back to the first point, the Bible teaches you everything you need to know, given you know enough to read it. Once you have trust in God you can simply read directly from the Bible without the need for presentable evidences; faith. Once your heart is clean and you are free of sin, given the bible is teachings for sinners, your heart which God as revealed, will choose the right path for you. No one really achieves this but we are on the path that feels right to us. This path will indefinitely take you outside of the bible. But the bible will be in you instead. The heart is the most powerful organ in the body 100x more electricity than the brain, and 5000x more magnetically than the brain. So heart first, the brain after. Love first than you will choose the right field of study for your mind. Just like how the heart is the first organ formed and stems the brain. The brain is like the crop, and the heart is the farmer. I noticed you mentioned Elizabeth Διαμονδ DKTrav88 and then me, saving the best for last I see
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 21, 2018 22:51:39 GMT
unknown Не обижайся но самое смешное для меня это почитать Невзорова как героя! (Известный пропогандист атеизма)
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 22:52:59 GMT
Where did Jesus do this? Jesus taught us to do the Lord's Super, to preach, to be baptized, and to baptize, and to obey the commandments. Where did Jesus do this ladan thing and teach us to do it? Well, if Protestants understand only the letter of Scripture, it's only their problem! Shrug 6-He gave us the ability to be ministers of the New Testament, not letters, but of the Spirit, because the letter kills, but the Spirit animates.- The Second Epistle to the Corinthians! Yes. He wanted us to do the things He taught. He didn't teach ladan. And He did nothing with ladan. We must minister the gospel He have. That's our duty.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:54:13 GMT
Yes, I read that thread. I made the thread. What is the question and the bible verse? Because I just see traditions people made up and traditions God didn't make. Sorry, Elizabeth, but it's useless to object any traditional to Orthodoxy issues, because every rituals (I underline - rituals, not arrangements) come up from Scriptures. By the way, there's the book of Protestant about history of rituals and liturgy of Orthodoxy. I'm not sure about correctness of name (I've read it in Russian) - Хью Уайбру "Православная литургия" (it ought to be like this Hu (?) Ybrew (?) 'The Orthodox Liturgy'), where he writes about whole history of applying of rituals as liturgy itself, and he admits that everything is clear and under the law (relation between the words and acts) of Bible.
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Post by just10sp on Apr 21, 2018 22:57:18 GMT
I feel so left out, who is going to be my translator? :(
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:58:23 GMT
Thank you, Elizabeth for your answering, sorry, that I haven't answered in time (I was busy and... Well, today I have a too long and crazy day!.. I meet my friends which I haven't saw for ages. Well... crazy day..). Well, I want to say that I love you, DKTrav88 , Διαμονδ , just10sp and the rest of my friends of Arktos. You guys are awesome, and I like to chat with you very much!! Ok, getting back to comments... I'm sorry that I won't use precise quotations and won't be answering at precise themes, but I want to summarize my answers, and to show my position on it. Firstly, I see that Protestants use individualistic understanding of Bible, which I mean as - everyone is able to understand the Bible. For example, you said that doctors, or teachers could be bad, and also that the one could cure oneself, and the one could teach oneself, if it would be possible. There's no objection at this while we understand that if a doctor, or a teacher is able to understand the path of medicine, or pedagogy, then everyone else can. I clearly understand it, but my thesis is not on 'ability to get a discipline/subject', but on atomization (individualization; well, the term 'atomization' belongs to Hanna Arendt) of society. I mean surely, each man or woman can understand Bible, and he/she may avoid services of someone else to understand the words of God. (I want to add here, that priests in Orthodoxy, as any other persons, are not authority as the same level as Gospels, or Acts, or Paul... they just do what they can do best, and also they continue to make rituals... Well, I leave this topic to another times, because I don't want to wide the subject.) I'm worrying of this individualization, because I see this a big problem. Technology is the one of something that comes to be medium between us, because it breaks simple relationship. But, even taking another examples we can see that our abilities of curing, teaching, translating, programming... etc are left out with another things. I can't break apart my understanding of Bible, books of philosophy, science, music, etc on the one hand, and processes in society on the other hand. I try to gather things, because all the processes which goes around are grouped. That's why I insist not using of ability of understanding Bible by a man/a woman, but on more higher things. Reading Bible we may not see another important things; and this is not a call to leave teaching of Bible, but a claim to leave our questions of methods of interpretations (or just of simple reading, if dktrav88 don't agree with me on it), but on some other important things that hides behind it. I beg you to understand me correctly: Reading/understanding/teaching/interpretating/... of Bible is not enough for us all, and separating it from other things may be very dangerous. What profit would be for us while reading Bible we would bury something good? Luv ya all! This is the best post I have seen on Arktos! I just wanted to say that the fact you need to learn to speak/read before being able to read the bible is evident and in fact obvious that we need a good general base of knowledge before we can correctly read scripture and that it is not only necessary but required. This is fact ;p Humans are a result of what we have accepted and rejected, as well as our input and output, so we have to be careful what we accept. As with any group of friends or people with the same views, similarities, you are instantly drawn to them because likes attract likes, the same as opposites attract in intimacy, so because protestants are of the same mind, beliefs, and views they are instantly drawn to each other naturally and instinctively. This does not mean they put aside society as a whole. The nice thing about religion morespecifically, Christians are that we are taught to love all, and pray for those you don't (the evil people.) So it may not be as individualistic as you think! It's like a brotherhood where we are accepted and people like to be around those who accept us. As with Elizabeth I believe in unity of faith, unfortunately people have different interpretations, and not everyone agrees to wear the same glove. We are all people and most people know that in fact even though we see ourselves as smart for understanding the Bible, the rest of the world see’s us as dumb and that we believe in fairy tales ;p so it is hard to be in communion when we write so much of the Bible into our hearts that it changes us. Our very being pushes them away or we hinder ourselves and keep it on the down low. So we do want the best for everyone it's just easier for us to fit in with our denomination. Back to the first point, the Bible teaches you everything you need to know, given you know enough to read it. Once you have trust in God you can simply read directly from the Bible without the need for presentable evidences; faith. Once your heart is clean and you are free of sin, given the bible is teachings for sinners, your heart which God as revealed, will choose the right path for you. No one really achieves this but we are on the path that feels right to us. This path will indefinitely take you outside of the bible. But the bible will be in you instead. The heart is the most powerful organ in the body 100x more electricity than the brain, and 5000x more magnetically than the brain. So heart first, the brain after. Love first than you will choose the right field of study for your mind. Just like how the heart is the first organ formed and stems the brain. The brain is like the crop, and the heart is the farmer. I noticed you mentioned Elizabeth Διαμονδ DKTrav88 and then me, saving the best for last I see Thank you very much for your warm words! And also thank you, that you have said the thought much more better than I've tried to do. I'm sorry, that I can't answer right now, because I lay down to sleep, so I will as soon as I be on a line next time! Cheers!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:59:06 GMT
unknown Не обижайся но самое смешное для меня это почитать Невзорова как героя! (Известный пропогандист атеизма) У жалкого человека жалкий герой. Что поделать...
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 21, 2018 23:00:59 GMT
I feel so left out, who is going to be my translator? :( I advise you to always use the browser + translator!
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 23:01:44 GMT
just10spNo. I do not agree with most protestants. I can argue them all they long actually had fun doing that recently. Came out a happy ending surprisingly and with unity as it should be Amen! And as you said it, unknown wins best post on Arktos xD
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 23:03:51 GMT
Yes, I read that thread. I made the thread. What is the question and the bible verse? Because I just see traditions people made up and traditions God didn't make. Sorry, Elizabeth, but it's useless to object any traditional to Orthodoxy issues, because every rituals (I underline - rituals, not arrangements) come up from Scriptures. By the way, there's the book of Protestant about history of rituals and liturgy of Orthodoxy. I'm not sure about correctness of name (I've read it in Russian) - Хью Уайбру "Православная литургия" (it ought to be like this Hu (?) Ybrew (?) 'The Orthodox Liturgy'), where he writes about whole history of applying of rituals as liturgy itself, and he admits that everything is clear and under the law (relation between the words and acts) of Bible. Yes, but bible also mentions not to follow all traditions. Jesus ridiculed manyyyy traditions. Yeah, they're mentioned in the bible but Jesus said He didn't give them and shouldn't be followed.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 23:06:46 GMT
I feel so left out, who is going to be my translator? :( It's mostly about orthodox traditions about burning things which I don't find in scripture. Nothing fun to translate Shrug
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 21, 2018 23:07:39 GMT
Sorry, Elizabeth, but it's useless to object any traditional to Orthodoxy issues, because every rituals (I underline - rituals, not arrangements) come up from Scriptures. By the way, there's the book of Protestant about history of rituals and liturgy of Orthodoxy. I'm about correctness of name (I've read it in Russian) - Хью Уайбру "Православная литургия" (it ought to be like this Hu (?) Ybrew (?) 'The Orthodox Liturgy'), where he writes about whole history of applying of rituals as liturgy itself, and he admits that everything is clear and under the law (relation between the words and acts) of Bible. Yes, but bible also mentions not to follow all traditions. Jesus ridiculed manyyyy traditions. Yeah, they're mentioned in the bible but Jesus said He didn't give them and shouldn't be followed. azbyka.ru/biblia/?2Thes.3 Read this please!
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Post by just10sp on Apr 21, 2018 23:08:27 GMT
just10sp No. I do not agree with most protestants. I can argue them all they long actually had fun doing that recently. Came out a happy ending surprisingly and with unity as it should be I love debating people. Unfortunately I am new to religion so it is not my repertoise, and I don’t have much to say. I just stay quiet Amen! And as you said it, unknown wins best post on Arktos xD After all of yours of course!
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 23:12:16 GMT
Yes, but bible also mentions not to follow all traditions. Jesus ridiculed manyyyy traditions. Yeah, they're mentioned in the bible but Jesus said He didn't give them and shouldn't be followed. azbyka.ru/biblia/?2Thes.3 Read this please! But you cannot live by Spirit without doing what the Bible says! We must become what Jesus preached.
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