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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 7:58:49 GMT
www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/johns-story-why-i-left-eastern-orthodoxy-for-evangelicalism/“I would have caved had I not begun reading the Bible the Baptists had given me,” John says with a smile. “As I began reading Scripture, I understood Jesus to be the only way to God. I realized I did not need the Orthodox church or even a priest to be my mediator, for Jesus was the mediator between me and the Father.” Though John does not use the term, it is clear from his testimony that he had acquired an unshakable belief in the Reformation doctrine of sola scriptura. “I realized that the Bible was the authority, even over the Church. The Bible was true, and the Church with all its traditions and rituals was wrong.” What do those who are members of the Orthodox Church think of this and the rest of what is said in the article?
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Nov 7, 2019 5:17:46 GMT
Question 1: Do you pray for people?
Question 2: If the dead know nothing and niether do they have any reward, how was Moses able to talk to Christ during the Transfiguration on mount Tabor?
Seeking communication with the dead by way of a medium is prohibited. Prayer to the saints who are living is not.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 7, 2019 5:36:12 GMT
Question 1: Do you pray for people? Question 2: If the dead know nothing and niether do they have any reward, how was Moses able to talk to Christ during the Transfiguration on mount Tabor? Seeking communication with the dead by way of a medium is prohibited. Prayer to the saints who are living is not. I have, yes. Moses and Elijah took on physical bodies, they were actually there speaking with Christ. I asked you a question, are you going to answer it? Or is this a one sided discussion?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Nov 7, 2019 12:19:13 GMT
Because I've read the Bible You dear Mr. trust The King James Bible. I am interested in whether this is the true Word of God in English? Did King James and his experts fulfill the will of God? P.S I understand that every person may have their own misconceptions about Scripture, but the meaning of the Bible the word of God was the same at all times. 19. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Nov 7, 2019 21:11:50 GMT
DKTrav88 , So you say Jesus alone can intercede for people yet you have interceded for people in your own prayer life. Is that not a contradiction? If we can pray for people as the Apostle Paul exhorts us to do, then why can't we request the saints to pray for us who are in heaven? If I can pray for you, then I can ask st Paul to pray for you as well. I know from Revelations that God hears the prayers of all the saints, for it is written: "And another angel came and stood at the alter, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden alter which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Rev 8:3-4) Another beautiful thing about that particular verse is that it bears witness to the legitimacy of us Orthodox using alters and incense in the liturgy. We're justified in that because it is a pattern of the liturgy that occurs in heaven. Paul mentions a cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1 which is interpreted as the saints that are in heaven praying for us on earth. Also, how could Moses take on a physical body before the Resurrection? How do you know they had physical bodies? The bible doesn't specify if they were in spirit form or physically there. There is no where in the Bible that I know of that specifically states that you can pray to the saints in heaven, but neither is there anything saying you can't. Nor does the word 'Trinity' appear in the Bible, yet I believe in a Trinity. Tradition does say that its right to pray to the saints and tradition is justified in this verse: "Therfore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess 2:15)
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Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 8, 2019 4:33:46 GMT
DKTrav88 , So you say Jesus alone can intercede for people yet you have interceded for people in your own prayer life. Is that not a contradiction? If we can pray for people as the Apostle Paul exhorts us to do, then why can't we request the saints to pray for us who are in heaven? If I can pray for you, then I can ask st Paul to pray for you as well. I know from Revelations that God hears the prayers of all the saints, for it is written: "And another angel came and stood at the alter, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden alter which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Rev 8:3-4) Another beautiful thing about that particular verse is that it bears witness to the legitimacy of us Orthodox using alters and incense in the liturgy. We're justified in that because it is a pattern of the liturgy that occurs in heaven. Paul mentions a cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12:1 which is interpreted as the saints that are in heaven praying for us on earth. Also, how could Moses take on a physical body before the Resurrection? How do you know they had physical bodies? The bible doesn't specify if they were in spirit form or physically there. There is no where in the Bible that I know of that specifically states that you can pray to the saints in heaven, but neither is there anything saying you can't. Nor does the word 'Trinity' appear in the Bible, yet I believe in a Trinity. Tradition does say that its right to pray to the saints and tradition is justified in this verse: "Therfore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess 2:15) All prayers must be in Jesus's name, correct? Where is the contradiction? I pray for people to Jesus and Jesus intercedes to the Father. Isn't that was scripture says to do in Romans, Hebrews and the gospel of John? I don't know why the Orthodox church interprets that passage as "we should burn incense during worship" because that verse doesn't tell you to do that, it is describing what is happening in heaven and that is all that it is doing. Buddhists burn incense and bring bells while they worship, this just shows the influence the Orthodox church has gotten from eastern religions. I also don't know why the Orthodox church interprets Hebrews 12:1 as "saints praying for us on earth" when it clearly doesn't say that. That seems to be very much eisegetical, reading into the text. Elijah was taken up into heaven, he never physically died. And the body of Moses was never found. But the Bible does tell us who to pray to and in the name of, and that is to God and in the name of Jesus Christ. So why would you ever pray to anyone or anything else? No, the Bible doesn't say the word "Trinity", but it does mention a Holy Trinity. The Bible doesn't say you can't pray to saints in heaven, but it does say when we pray we are to pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ. What the Orthodox church seems to be doing is, in another way, saying "The Bible doesn't we can't smoke cigarettes specifically, so I'm going to smoke cigarettes". You also said earlier "Seeking communication with the dead by way of a medium is prohibited." Then why is witchcraft considered abomination? Is there some kind of loophole in Orthodoxy that allows witches to be Christian and speak to the dead? "or by our epistle" meaning the scripture. If the tradition doesn't match the scripture, then it is a tradition of men.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Nov 8, 2019 6:58:42 GMT
Well If Scripture is our authority and every word in the Bible is our authority then we can read: 14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. (Galatians 1:14) Greek text - 14. και προέκοπτον εις τον Ιουδαϊσμόν υπέρ πολλούς συνηλικιώτας εν τω γένει μου, περισσότερον ζηλωτής υπάρχων των πατρικών μου . (Προς Γαλατάς 1:14) 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) 15. Λοιπόν, αδελφοί, μένετε σταθεροί και κρατείτε τας παραδόσεις, τας οποίας εδιδάχθητε είτε διά λόγου είτε δι' επιστολής ημών. (Προς Θεσσαλονικείς Β΄ 2:15) en.wiktionary.org/wiki/παραδόσεωνPaul criticizes the Jewish tradition, but says about Christian tradition. Everyone knows that the Jewish tradition which is in the Jewish talmud/kabbalah is hundreds of books. Of course, the True Tradition is also quite extensive material, because: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20) But! 25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25) It is obvious that the canonical Gospels say that not everything was written. The Scripture does not say - Sola Scriptura-. The devil has always distorted Divine truths. There is a real Scripture Septuagint - there is a Masoretic distortion/.There is a real tradition/There is a false tradition. The same applies to incense / incense. If it was used by pagans then this devil simply imitated theTrue doctrine. Tora say - 8. And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations. (Exodus 30:8)17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law(The Torah ), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17) 53. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen. (Luke 24:53) Incense was used in the Temple. The first Christian apostles went there to pray. Abouth Tradition - opponents Tradition are like Jannes and Jambres: 8. Now as *Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (2 Timothy 3:8)* The Torah does not mention the names of these opponents of Moses.
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Nov 10, 2019 1:47:57 GMT
DKTrav88Your statement was that only Jesus could intercede for us. Yet we are interceding for others when we pray for them just as Moses interceded for the Israelites when they made the golden calf, and as Job interceded for Eliphaz and his friends. Prayer is intercession. If I pray to St.Phanourios, I do so as if I were to ask you to pray for me. And don't say that the saints who died in Christ can't hear us, they can because they are in God's eternity; they being in the Father and the Father being in them. Did not Jesus say to the thief on the cross, Today you will be with me in paradise? Do not say the saints are dead. Even though there was an impassable chasm between Lazarus and the rich man, wasn't the rich man able to communicate to Abraham? (Luke 16:19-30) The rich man prayed to Abraham to intercede for Him! His request was denied, but Abraham did not rebuke him for his communication. So do the angels in heaven burn incense in heaven because they got it from the Buddhists? Did not God command the Levitical preisthood to burn incense before the alter? Did they get that from the Buddhists too? There's an oral tradition for that fills in the context of that passage. Its self-evident if your orthodox. I never said anything about Elijah, and according to Jude it was Michael the angel that contended with the devil over the body of Moses, so its safe to deduce that Moses was indeed dead. Such a literalist. I wonder why you havn't plucked out your eyes yet. (Matt 5:29) Here's an answer. Humility. Because sometimes we become aware of how unworthy we are to pray to God (which is a privilege) that its most becoming to ask somone lower on the totem pole to pray for us. Prayer is communication, not worship, there's no reason not to ask the saints for help...unless you think that you're too good to ask them. Again, when we pray to the saints we are not praying to the dead. They're in God and God is in them so they can hear us. Whichcraft is prohibited because the witch communicates with demons. We do not communicate with demons when we pray to the saints. There is no loophole. Orthodox Tradition is compatible with the Scripture, its just not compatible with your Protestant interpretation of Scripture, an interpretation that has been handed down as a tradition in of itself...a tradition of men.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 10, 2019 18:22:20 GMT
DKTrav88 Your statement was that only Jesus could intercede for us. Yet we are interceding for others when we pray for them just as Moses interceded for the Israelites when they made the golden calf, and as Job interceded for Eliphaz and his friends. Prayer is intercession. If I pray to St.Phanourios, I do so as if I were to ask you to pray for me. And don't say that the saints who died in Christ can't hear us, they can because they are in God's eternity; they being in the Father and the Father being in them. Did not Jesus say to the thief on the cross, Today you will be with me in paradise? Do not say the saints are dead. Even though there was an impassable chasm between Lazarus and the rich man, wasn't the rich man able to communicate to Abraham? (Luke 16:19-30) The rich man prayed to Abraham to intercede for Him! His request was denied, but Abraham did not rebuke him for his communication. So do the angels in heaven burn incense in heaven because they got it from the Buddhists? Did not God command the Levitical preisthood to burn incense before the alter? Did they get that from the Buddhists too? There's an oral tradition for that fills in the context of that passage. Its self-evident if your orthodox. I never said anything about Elijah, and according to Jude it was Michael the angel that contended with the devil over the body of Moses, so its safe to deduce that Moses was indeed dead. Such a literalist. I wonder why you havn't plucked out your eyes yet. (Matt 5:29) Here's an answer. Humility. Because sometimes we become aware of how unworthy we are to pray to God (which is a privilege) that its most becoming to ask somone lower on the totem pole to pray for us. Prayer is communication, not worship, there's no reason not to ask the saints for help...unless you think that you're too good to ask them. Again, when we pray to the saints we are not praying to the dead. They're in God and God is in them so they can hear us. Whichcraft is prohibited because the witch communicates with demons. We do not communicate with demons when we pray to the saints. There is no loophole. Orthodox Tradition is compatible with the Scripture, its just not compatible with your Protestant interpretation of Scripture, an interpretation that has been handed down as a tradition in of itself...a tradition of men. Yes I make intercessory prayer for others, but not for people who are not alive and present with us here in this world. Make sense? Saints are dead in this world, they are in the grave, not walking among us any longer. You can make the case they are spiritually alive, which is true, but to say they can hear us on earth isn't found anywhere in scripture. The rich man was in hell talking to Abraham in heaven; neither of them were on earth. totally dude. Is that what the scripture says? Did it occur to you that we are not under the ordinances of the Levitical priesthood? Those were done away with in Christ. Read Hebrews. Oh yes of course, tradition will interpret scripture for you. Right, because as an orthodox I have the church as my authority and not God's word. I gotchya Odd, you know the difference between dead and living here but I can't say the saints are dead. So is Moses dead or alive? Are the saints dead or alive? Prayer is actually the highest form of worship. There's nothing in the Bible that points to saints in heaven being able to intercede for me. I'm not going to abide by a doctrine that is not in scripture. Well then you're going to have to prove with scripture that the saints in heaven can indeed hear us. Good luck with that. I am only searching the scriptures to verify doctrine. You can call that what you want, but we have examples of Christians doing that exact thing in the Bible. The so-called "apostolic succession" is what enables the making of new traditions/doctrines that aren't inline with scripture. These new traditions/doctrines were not all there from the beginning of the early church, they've been added throughout time, over the last 1700 years or so. For example, the use of the rosary was introduced in the 11th century, before that it was considered, and still is, to have its origins in paganism as another form of a witch's ladder. Another example; the canonization of saints didn't start until the 10 century, which is akin to pagan apotheosis, and of course it was an orthodox canonized saint who said "The Son of God became man so that we might become God." The Mormons teach this as well; it was the serpent in the beginning who said man could be become God.
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Nov 10, 2019 20:49:59 GMT
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)
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