|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 11, 2022 9:31:30 GMT
- Math cannot be described using logic (Godel's proof)
- Logic can be described using math by calculating concepts (Frege's proof)
- We can get rid of concepts (Aristotle's proof)
|
|
|
Post by joustos on Jan 11, 2022 21:11:55 GMT
- Math cannot be described using logic (Godel's proof)
- Logic can be described using math by calculating concepts (Frege's proof)
- We can get rid of concepts (Aristotle's proof)
Historically speaking, it's true that Math is prior to Logic, that is, the Logic dissertations and formulations of Aristotle, the Stoics, etc.But then you confuse chronological priority with "logical priority" [or presupposionality]. To put it differently: Simple Math, or some Math, was created without the use of Logic Formulations, but it required Logical intuitions : the mind spontaneously operated logically, just as it happens in today's minds that do creative mathematical works. On the other hand, some of today's Logic {logic systems, such as the Logic of Classes} depend on formulated Math, the work of mathematicians. ,
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 12, 2022 7:07:26 GMT
- Math cannot be described using logic (Godel's proof)
- Logic can be described using math by calculating concepts (Frege's proof)
- We can get rid of concepts (Aristotle's proof)
Historically speaking, it's true that Math is prior to Logic, that is, the Logic dissertations and formulations of Aristotle, the Stoics, etc.But then you confuse chronological priority with "logical priority" [or presupposionality]. To put it differently: Simple Math, or some Math, was created without the use of Logic Formulations, but it required Logical intuitions : the mind spontaneously operated logically, just as it happens in today's minds that do creative mathematical works. On the other hand, some of today's Logic {logic systems, such as the Logic of Classes} depend on formulated Math, the work of mathematicians. , It is a reasonable addition. Surely, it might be that in some cases people had chosen something using their grey stuff between the ears. On the other hand, animals do math. If they wouldn't, they would die of overeating, or all the carnivores would have eaten all the harbivores. Beavers never built the blocks, birds couldn't fly, etc. No, a living being doens't need to appeal to his grey stuff to calculate something. Let me explain it briefly using this imagine dialogue example: - you don't understand logic. At all - no, it's you who doesn't have any intelligence - me? my intelligence is bigger, than yours - how dare you claim this not knowing that your blame to me of not understanding logic is illogical? - I am who understands logic, not you - I am an intelligent person, and you're not... Such a dialogue might be not so savage, but in any case, we would never find out neither logic, nor intelligence. It's a spelled circle. Instead, while those gentlemen from the dialogue are still arguing to each others, a mathematician just calculated that they've used 316 symbols. We can never will have argued what logic is, but we can say for now how many symbols have bee used.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 13, 2022 22:27:06 GMT
- Math cannot be described using logic (Godel's proof)
- Logic can be described using math by calculating concepts (Frege's proof)
- We can get rid of concepts (Aristotle's proof)
1. Yet you are using logic to argue all of this thus using logic to prove math's superiority which therefore makes logic superior considering one has to resort to logic first to argue math's superiority......you end in a contradiction. Try expressing the above argument you provided using only math.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 13, 2022 22:40:42 GMT
Historically speaking, it's true that Math is prior to Logic, that is, the Logic dissertations and formulations of Aristotle, the Stoics, etc.But then you confuse chronological priority with "logical priority" [or presupposionality]. To put it differently: Simple Math, or some Math, was created without the use of Logic Formulations, but it required Logical intuitions : the mind spontaneously operated logically, just as it happens in today's minds that do creative mathematical works. On the other hand, some of today's Logic {logic systems, such as the Logic of Classes} depend on formulated Math, the work of mathematicians. , It is a reasonable addition. Surely, it might be that in some cases people had chosen something using their grey stuff between the ears. On the other hand, animals do math. If they wouldn't, they would die of overeating, or all the carnivores would have eaten all the harbivores. Beavers never built the blocks, birds couldn't fly, etc. No, a living being doens't need to appeal to his grey stuff to calculate something. Let me explain it briefly using this imagine dialogue example: - you don't understand logic. At all - no, it's you who doesn't have any intelligence - me? my intelligence is bigger, than yours - how dare you claim this not knowing that your blame to me of not understanding logic is illogical? - I am who understands logic, not you - I am an intelligent person, and you're not... Such a dialogue might be not so savage, but in any case, we would never find out neither logic, nor intelligence. It's a spelled circle. Instead, while those gentlemen from the dialogue are still arguing to each others, a mathematician just calculated that they've used 316 symbols. We can never will have argued what logic is, but we can say for now how many symbols have bee used. 1. That same argument for "logic" can replace the term "logic" with that of "math". If circularity is fallacious then the groundings of math are fallacious as well given a number line is strictly 1 repeating itself. 2. Yet that number of 316 can equivocate to a variety of other phenomenon as well thus making any final conclusion of a mathematical statement subject to equivocation. What meaning is there in reducing a phenomenon to a number given not only are there many ways to count objects, as each object is a classification of parts relating, but there are many things which equate through numbers (ie 2 oranges share the same number as 2 apples or 2 horses thus making 2 equal a variety of things)?
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 14, 2022 5:14:33 GMT
- Math cannot be described using logic (Godel's proof)
- Logic can be described using math by calculating concepts (Frege's proof)
- We can get rid of concepts (Aristotle's proof)
1. Yet you are using logic to argue all of this thus using logic to prove math's superiority which therefore makes logic superior considering one has to resort to logic first to argue math's superiority......you end in a contradiction. Try expressing the above argument you provided using only math. ...contradiction... ...condtradiction... - And what is that funny word you've been using constantly? Another bluntly philosophical word? Science doesn't need in such words, and it wins. Always.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 15, 2022 23:42:25 GMT
1. Yet you are using logic to argue all of this thus using logic to prove math's superiority which therefore makes logic superior considering one has to resort to logic first to argue math's superiority......you end in a contradiction. Try expressing the above argument you provided using only math. ...contradiction... ...condtradiction... - And what is that funny word you've been using constantly? Another bluntly philosophical word? Science doesn't need in such words, and it wins. Always. You are arguing for math in the op not science. You are diverting subjects and making unargued assertions at this point. There is no scientific proof that science ended the world's turmoil and this said turmoil is not quantifiable. You are making nothing but unquantifiable emotional assertions at this point Eugene..you are just lost and looking for the next thing to believe in.
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 16, 2022 15:02:41 GMT
...contradiction... ...condtradiction... - And what is that funny word you've been using constantly? Another bluntly philosophical word? Science doesn't need in such words, and it wins. Always. You are arguing for math in the op not science. You are diverting subjects and making unargued assertions at this point. There is no scientific proof that science ended the world's turmoil and this said turmoil is not quantifiable. You are making nothing but unquantifiable emotional assertions at this point Eugene..you are just lost and looking for the next thing to believe in. This is a true description. Very true. Only one thing that makes me laugh (another emotion) - why philosophical arguments (or logical ones) must be lesser or plainer, than the emotional ones? Besides, if one is really deep into philosophy he must be as the most trickiest and the most unpredictable snake, like the true ninja or like a shadow. It's not a philosophy if it can't go through the walls. Aristotle said that to do philosophy is almost to be a god. So, it's kinda theology. Anyway, there is no cure against math. Math does not need any logic or anything else - and this is very important. You don't need to justify it, or verify it, or falsify it, or prove it. Because it works. And this is true by default. If math doesn't work - nothing else works either. That's true that we still use logical languages or sorta. It's true that I cannot argue with you or anyone esle using math language. I might if I put something like 1+1=2. And thank God! that 1+1=2 doesn't need no proof! It works without any proofs. We don't need to think we need to do it as it says. Even a computer can do this. If it can be done by a soulless machine, it can be done by a human being. And we can creates machines to calculate enormously big numbers to save our time. But logic cannot do this. There are no such solutions in it comparaly to math. Like in this example: 1) Aristotle crossed Mediterranean sea (fact) 2) When Aristotle lived there were no submarines (fact) 3) Working submarines dive under water (fact) Therefore, Aristotle never dove under water (...really?) what about swimming? Even adding new extra sentence, like for instance 4) Aristotle swam at least once (a hypothesis) We can imply that Aristotle never swam Mediterranean sea Ok. Let's suppose we've made of mistake, so what? What's next? Maybe we can correct ourselves saying that o, it's okay, we can change a logical form. No we cannot. Our logic is limited by our rationality which is not good for logic. It means the next - logic itself is made by the induction.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 16, 2022 23:34:40 GMT
You are arguing for math in the op not science. You are diverting subjects and making unargued assertions at this point. There is no scientific proof that science ended the world's turmoil and this said turmoil is not quantifiable. You are making nothing but unquantifiable emotional assertions at this point Eugene..you are just lost and looking for the next thing to believe in. This is a true description. Very true. Only one thing that makes me laugh (another emotion) - why philosophical arguments (or logical ones) must be lesser or plainer, than the emotional ones? Besides, if one is really deep into philosophy he must be as the most trickiest and the most unpredictable snake, like the true ninja or like a shadow. It's not a philosophy if it can't go through the walls. Aristotle said that to do philosophy is almost to be a god. So, it's kinda theology. Anyway, there is no cure against math. Math does not need any logic or anything else - and this is very important. You don't need to justify it, or verify it, or falsify it, or prove it. Because it works. And this is true by default. If math doesn't work - nothing else works either. That's true that we still use logical languages or sorta. It's true that I cannot argue with you or anyone esle using math language. I might if I put something like 1+1=2. And thank God! that 1+1=2 doesn't need no proof! It works without any proofs. We don't need to think we need to do it as it says. Even a computer can do this. If it can be done by a soulless machine, it can be done by a human being. And we can creates machines to calculate enormously big numbers to save our time. But logic cannot do this. There are no such solutions in it comparaly to math. Like in this example: 1) Aristotle crossed Mediterranean sea (fact) 2) When Aristotle lived there were no submarines (fact) 3) Working submarines dive under water (fact) Therefore, Aristotle never dove under water (...really?) what about swimming? Even adding new extra sentence, like for instance 4) Aristotle swam at least once (a hypothesis) We can imply that Aristotle never swam Mediterranean sea Ok. Let's suppose we've made of mistake, so what? What's next? Maybe we can correct ourselves saying that o, it's okay, we can change a logical form. No we cannot. Our logic is limited by our rationality which is not good for logic. It means the next - logic itself is made by the induction. If math does not rely on proofs then there would be no proofs in math. However math relies on proofs therefore math needs proven. Math does not work on its own as it depends on phenomenon outside of it. There are phenomenon which exist prior to math, thus math is not the be all end all. Take emotions for example, they exist outside of math yet you use an emotional argument to justify math. Your justification is senseless and nonmathematical. Your emotions only prove a bias thus you are not open logically to other possibilities such as math is not the be all end all.
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 17, 2022 7:22:23 GMT
This is a true description. Very true. Only one thing that makes me laugh (another emotion) - why philosophical arguments (or logical ones) must be lesser or plainer, than the emotional ones? Besides, if one is really deep into philosophy he must be as the most trickiest and the most unpredictable snake, like the true ninja or like a shadow. It's not a philosophy if it can't go through the walls. Aristotle said that to do philosophy is almost to be a god. So, it's kinda theology. Anyway, there is no cure against math. Math does not need any logic or anything else - and this is very important. You don't need to justify it, or verify it, or falsify it, or prove it. Because it works. And this is true by default. If math doesn't work - nothing else works either. That's true that we still use logical languages or sorta. It's true that I cannot argue with you or anyone esle using math language. I might if I put something like 1+1=2. And thank God! that 1+1=2 doesn't need no proof! It works without any proofs. We don't need to think we need to do it as it says. Even a computer can do this. If it can be done by a soulless machine, it can be done by a human being. And we can creates machines to calculate enormously big numbers to save our time. But logic cannot do this. There are no such solutions in it comparaly to math. Like in this example: 1) Aristotle crossed Mediterranean sea (fact) 2) When Aristotle lived there were no submarines (fact) 3) Working submarines dive under water (fact) Therefore, Aristotle never dove under water (...really?) what about swimming? Even adding new extra sentence, like for instance 4) Aristotle swam at least once (a hypothesis) We can imply that Aristotle never swam Mediterranean sea Ok. Let's suppose we've made of mistake, so what? What's next? Maybe we can correct ourselves saying that o, it's okay, we can change a logical form. No we cannot. Our logic is limited by our rationality which is not good for logic. It means the next - logic itself is made by the induction. If math does not rely on proofs then there would be no proofs in math. However math relies on proofs therefore math needs proven. Math does not work on its own as it depends on phenomenon outside of it. There are phenomenon which exist prior to math, thus math is not the be all end all. Take emotions for example, they exist outside of math yet you use an emotional argument to justify math. Your justification is senseless and nonmathematical. Your emotions only prove a bias thus you are not open logically to other possibilities such as math is not the be all end all. I can't say math requires something that would be wrong. We all need in math. And without math there would be no humanity in cosmos. It is our primary key to the universe. Math doesn't require logoc, it requires emotions or kinda. You put a=b and b=c together and you can emotionally see that a=c may work. So you do, so you know. No logic is needed. By the way, you said logic, but in math analysis there are bunch of logical mistkaes, Russell and others notified that. Moreover, such mathematicians as Cauchy in XIX registred bunch of mistakes and offered a way to prove them logically. And what's next? - Another generations of mathematicians failed finding themselves in either the Relative Theories or others. No till XX in math there were no logic, and it proved to be as good as well without any logic. Logic is trash.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 19, 2022 0:11:21 GMT
If math does not rely on proofs then there would be no proofs in math. However math relies on proofs therefore math needs proven. Math does not work on its own as it depends on phenomenon outside of it. There are phenomenon which exist prior to math, thus math is not the be all end all. Take emotions for example, they exist outside of math yet you use an emotional argument to justify math. Your justification is senseless and nonmathematical. Your emotions only prove a bias thus you are not open logically to other possibilities such as math is not the be all end all. I can't say math requires something that would be wrong. We all need in math. And without math there would be no humanity in cosmos. It is our primary key to the universe. Math doesn't require logoc, it requires emotions or kinda. You put a=b and b=c together and you can emotionally see that a=c may work. So you do, so you know. No logic is needed. By the way, you said logic, but in math analysis there are bunch of logical mistkaes, Russell and others notified that. Moreover, such mathematicians as Cauchy in XIX registred bunch of mistakes and offered a way to prove them logically. And what's next? - Another generations of mathematicians failed finding themselves in either the Relative Theories or others. No till XX in math there were no logic, and it proved to be as good as well without any logic. Logic is trash. Your whole argument requires logic, ie you are using logic. You are not using math to justify it. 1+1=2 is not justified without first pointing to objects. Math coexists, it is neither first nor second.
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 21, 2022 16:45:37 GMT
I can't say math requires something that would be wrong. We all need in math. And without math there would be no humanity in cosmos. It is our primary key to the universe. Math doesn't require logoc, it requires emotions or kinda. You put a=b and b=c together and you can emotionally see that a=c may work. So you do, so you know. No logic is needed. By the way, you said logic, but in math analysis there are bunch of logical mistkaes, Russell and others notified that. Moreover, such mathematicians as Cauchy in XIX registred bunch of mistakes and offered a way to prove them logically. And what's next? - Another generations of mathematicians failed finding themselves in either the Relative Theories or others. No till XX in math there were no logic, and it proved to be as good as well without any logic. Logic is trash. Your whole argument requires logic, ie you are using logic. You are not using math to justify it. 1+1=2 is not justified without first pointing to objects. Math coexists, it is neither first nor second. Look, why did you stick to that argument? Think about it further, where did you get about logic at all? Maybe you've been misusing the concept of logic. (It doesn't mean everyone else can't be wrong either.) Another way, what if everything is directed? What if as things are things really are? Let's say until today you've been lucky at logic and everything you call logic was just a makeup? You or anyone else cannot insist there is no such things. Everything might be as a coincidence. Hume told it hundreds of times in his philosophy.
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 21, 2022 23:13:10 GMT
Your whole argument requires logic, ie you are using logic. You are not using math to justify it. 1+1=2 is not justified without first pointing to objects. Math coexists, it is neither first nor second. Look, why did you stick to that argument? Think about it further, where did you get about logic at all? Maybe you've been misusing the concept of logic. (It doesn't mean everyone else can't be wrong either.) Another way, what if everything is directed? What if as things are things really are? Let's say until today you've been lucky at logic and everything you call logic was just a makeup? You or anyone else cannot insist there is no such things. Everything might be as a coincidence. Hume told it hundreds of times in his philosophy. [b A coincidence requires a rational argument to prove it is a coincidence. To say x is a coincidence requires arguing that there is no cause other then chance behind it....it requires an argument, thus logic, about chance.
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 23, 2022 21:33:38 GMT
Look, why did you stick to that argument? Think about it further, where did you get about logic at all? Maybe you've been misusing the concept of logic. (It doesn't mean everyone else can't be wrong either.) Another way, what if everything is directed? What if as things are things really are? Let's say until today you've been lucky at logic and everything you call logic was just a makeup? You or anyone else cannot insist there is no such things. Everything might be as a coincidence. Hume told it hundreds of times in his philosophy. [b A coincidence requires a rational argument to prove it is a coincidence. To say x is a coincidence requires arguing that there is no cause other then chance behind it....it requires an argument, thus logic, about chance. Yes. I agree on that. The funny thing is - your righteousness doesn't help here. Because even if I need to rationalize those coincidences it does not mean in any sense that x is a cause of y. All what we've got from the rationalization is that: among the different relations, there is at least one relation that is caused.
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 23, 2022 21:35:58 GMT
Look, why did you stick to that argument? Think about it further, where did you get about logic at all? Maybe you've been misusing the concept of logic. (It doesn't mean everyone else can't be wrong either.) Another way, what if everything is directed? What if as things are things really are? Let's say until today you've been lucky at logic and everything you call logic was just a makeup? You or anyone else cannot insist there is no such things. Everything might be as a coincidence. Hume told it hundreds of times in his philosophy. [b A coincidence requires a rational argument to prove it is a coincidence. To say x is a coincidence requires arguing that there is no cause other then chance behind it....it requires an argument, thus logic, about chance. So, we're logical, but only under some specific conditions. I mean, I can be rational at one point not being rational about the others. Let's say I use both axioms and deduce a theorem from them, however what are those axioms? Are they necessary rational? I don't think so. Axioms - as you previously said somewhere in the earlier posts - are taken by chance, rather by some strictly rational point.
|
|