Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 1,763
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 30, 2020 1:13:00 GMT
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,728
Likes: 1,763
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 31
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Nov 16, 2020 1:53:56 GMT
SLAVERY, CIVIL WAR, EMANCIPATION [1] The myth of slavery: The Spaniards on the American continent did enslave Amerindians but also intermarried with them, whereas th New England colonists fought against them in order to get rid of them from the surrounding territories and.... Both purchased Africans and, were they enslaved??? I shall speak only of the N. Eng. colonists. In England, they were subjects of the king and lived and worked on land that belonged to the king; they were vassals of feuds, not slaves, as they were provided with lodgings, food, and clothing, but they were not free to leave (and die somewhere else). To this extent, they we slaves. Now, in America the colonists did not live on the king's property, and there was un-owned land all around. So, they -- some of them -- decided to establish feudalism there in which they would be the baronial landowners. This was private (not State) feudalism. Hence they bought Africans to do the farm work, as they were not conqueros of peoples and had no prisoners of war. They bought Africans (singles and married people) from the so-called slave-traders, who rescued them from starvation in Africa. Colonists also imported indentured servants, i.e, Europeans who obliged themselves to work for the colonists for a limited number of years in exchange for their travel expenses and the present necessities of life. // As in the case of ancient Roman prisoner owners, some American "slave" owners, granted freedom to their subjects, for good or extraordinary behavior (such as the teaching of children), after some years. [2]
Can you functionally explain the difference between slavery and private feudalism? In the tropical regions of the Americas they did set up private feudalism and the societies of Latin America, the Caribbean, and the American South were the societies most like traditional Europe with entrenched and genuine aristocracies, caste and class systems, large agrarian landholdings, and high church Christianity (Catholicism in French, Spanish, and Portuguese colonies and Anglicanism in the English colonies) but the serfs in this traditionalist system were replaced with slaves, owned by the aristocratic masters and completely disposable by them. In the Caribbean and South America the aristocracy made so much money off of sugar that they could afford to work their slaves to death and import new ones. This wasn't true in the Antebellum South of course as slaves here multiplied by natural increase. The American South was where slavery was far less horrible but it still was brutal, horrible, and barbaric even there nonetheless.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 16, 2020 2:09:01 GMT
I gotta agree with karl that all forms of slavery are evil. I would only agree to one not being evil if the person choosing to be a slave and the person choosing to be the master will respect each other as people and so on. So if someone says I'll be your slave by only doing this and this in exchange for shelter, food, and clothes and if the owner agrees and will treat him like an employee with right and pays him with food, clothes, and shelter then it's not a problem. I often see homeless saying, "I'll work for you in exchange for food." So if each person is happy with the agreement then so be it. The slavery you're talking about as being acceptable sounds like the slavery of the Old Testament. Yes. And that's the only kind that makes sense to me regardless of my support for a religious text.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Nov 16, 2020 14:20:16 GMT
There's no excuse not even for a fact of Slavery, but for a thought that it may be ok in some cases. When a person says that: "If two persons had agreed both that one would be a master and the second – his slave, it would be ok"; only a lunatic or a hypocrite can claim this.
Long time ago there were different circumstances, and many people couldn't always do this or that without trying it out. I mean there were precedents of such evilest events. So, to decide it people should try it. (We don't judge children, because they don't really know what they do. Our ancestors are likely to be as children to us.)
Now – it must be absolutely clear – that bringing back any form of slavery is a purely total insane madness. So, how stupid one can be to apply even conventional forms of slavery?.. Just think about: one person pleases another to kill him... If there are people who say: 'yes, it's ok. They've agreed on it', then such persons are indeed killers.
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Post by joustos on Nov 16, 2020 15:50:58 GMT
SLAVERY, CIVIL WAR, EMANCIPATION [1] The myth of slavery: The Spaniards on the American continent did enslave Amerindians but also intermarried with them, whereas th New England colonists fought against them in order to get rid of them from the surrounding territories and.... Both purchased Africans and, were they enslaved??? I shall speak only of the N. Eng. colonists. In England, they were subjects of the king and lived and worked on land that belonged to the king; they were vassals of feuds, not slaves, as they were provided with lodgings, food, and clothing, but they were not free to leave (and die somewhere else). To this extent, they we slaves. Now, in America the colonists did not live on the king's property, and there was un-owned land all around. So, they -- some of them -- decided to establish feudalism there in which they would be the baronial landowners. This was private (not State) feudalism. Hence they bought Africans to do the farm work, as they were not conqueros of peoples and had no prisoners of war. They bought Africans (singles and married people) from the so-called slave-traders, who rescued them from starvation in Africa. Colonists also imported indentured servants, i.e, Europeans who obliged themselves to work for the colonists for a limited number of years in exchange for their travel expenses and the present necessities of life. // As in the case of ancient Roman prisoner owners, some American "slave" owners, granted freedom to their subjects, for good or extraordinary behavior (such as the teaching of children), after some years. [2]
[2] Why was there a civil war? We know the superficial facts: The southern States wanted to expand "slavery" to new states which were being formed in the southern United States, but presidential candidate Lincoln said that, as president, he would not allow that. So, when he was elected, the southern states decided to secede from the Union {which they had the right to do}, that is, to be independent from the federal government.Secession was the peaceful way of getting independence, whereas, earlier, the American independence from the British government necessitated the fight against the king's armies (militias) stationed in he Colonies. The Civil War was started by Lincoln, not by the seceded States. But WHY? Lincoln declared that he wanted to save the union. However it is NOT the president's duty to preserve the Union; according to the Constitution and the oath of office, a president has the duty to defend the Constitution -- which he violated. Anyway, he started the war in order to resolve an old problem, which the framers of the Constitution faced. Premises [provisions in the Constitution]: The number of the Representatives in the federal government depends on the number of the residents in each State; taxes are paid to the Federal government by the landowners in each State. {Eventually, the U.S. made the law that taxes were to be paid by the citizens according to their income, while cities levied taxes on property owners... as well as "sale taxes", which are really "purchase taxes".} Well, since the southern colonies had very large populations (on account of the slaves), they would supply more Representatives (legislators) than the northern States, but since the slaves were not property owners, the Slavery States would contribute, proportionately, fewer taxes than the northern States. So, they reached a compromise: In effect, each slave was to be counted as less than a unit. Now, Lincoln had no idea as to how he could resolve the problem of the great disparity between Representatives and Taxes that would ensue, if slavery were expanded to new States, so, Lincoln and Senator Thaddeus Stevens decided to abolish slavery/feudalism altogether by vandalizing the southern plantations. (This left the Blacks jobless and homeless.) [3] While the war was still raging, Lincoln wrote his famous Proclamation of Emancipation, to justify his war and vandalism:There was a rebellion against the federal government, wherefore he quelled the rebellion by sending troops. In truth, there was never such a rebellion and, if there were one, then, according to the Constitution, the state militias have to quell it. The Proclamation and the War actually indict Lincoln of a great crime. He was duly assassinated as a tyrant.
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Post by joustos on Nov 16, 2020 17:04:54 GMT
SLAVERY, CIVIL WAR, EMANCIPATION [1] The myth of slavery: The Spaniards on the American continent did enslave Amerindians but also intermarried with them, whereas th New England colonists fought against them in order to get rid of them from the surrounding territories and.... Both purchased Africans and, were they enslaved??? I shall speak only of the N. Eng. colonists. In England, they were subjects of the king and lived and worked on land that belonged to the king; they were vassals of feuds, not slaves, as they were provided with lodgings, food, and clothing, but they were not free to leave (and die somewhere else). To this extent, they we slaves. Now, in America the colonists did not live on the king's property, and there was un-owned land all around. So, they -- some of them -- decided to establish feudalism there in which they would be the baronial landowners. This was private (not State) feudalism. Hence they bought Africans to do the farm work, as they were not conqueros of peoples and had no prisoners of war. They bought Africans (singles and married people) from the so-called slave-traders, who rescued them from starvation in Africa. Colonists also imported indentured servants, i.e, Europeans who obliged themselves to work for the colonists for a limited number of years in exchange for their travel expenses and the present necessities of life. // As in the case of ancient Roman prisoner owners, some American "slave" owners, granted freedom to their subjects, for good or extraordinary behavior (such as the teaching of children), after some years. [2]
Can you functionally explain the difference between slavery and private feudalism? In the tropical regions of the Americas they did set up private feudalism and the societies of Latin America, the Caribbean, and the American South were the societies most like traditional Europe with entrenched and genuine aristocracies, caste and class systems, large agrarian landholdings, and high church Christianity (Catholicism in French, Spanish, and Portuguese colonies and Anglicanism in the English colonies) but the serfs in this traditionalist system were replaced with slaves, owned by the aristocratic masters and completely disposable by them. In the Caribbean and South America the aristocracy made so much money off of sugar that they could afford to work their slaves to death and import new ones. This wasn't true in the Antebellum South of course as slaves here multiplied by natural increase. The American South was where slavery was far less horrible but it still was brutal, horrible, and barbaric even there nonetheless. Yes, slavery is what I would call military or State feudalism. For example, after agriculture was invented and fields were cultivated, some military organization or some king (the chief of an army) invaded the farms and took possession of the cultivated lands and the farmers. So, de facto (not de jure) the farmers lost their freedom and their ownership of what they had created: They were ENSLAVED. The military forces instituted FEUDALIM in the sense that the farmers were forced to continue their farm work, were not allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor. but were allotted some necessities of life. {The American colonists did not subdue any farming population, did not steal anybody's farms: they did not enslave free working people.} Private (non-state, non-military) feudalism is instituted on non-owned land by importing workers. However, if the institutor has to pay for the imported people and has to immediately provide them with the necessities of life, he deliberatedly becomes their owner and has jurisdiction over them. The vassals/fiefs have no civil rights (which only the citizens of a republic have … and there are no such things as Human Rights.)
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Post by joustos on Nov 16, 2020 21:02:40 GMT
Jefferson's Independencies While he was the governor of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson wanted a separation of Church and State. What does that mean? Virginia was under the jurisdiction of the king of England and operated according to England's laws. One law was that the English had to pay tithes/fees (10% of their income to the state Church). Probably he personally often became bankrupt and eventually he will sell his extensive library to Congress in order to pay his debts. So, he did not wish to have the obligation to pay tithes. Hence, as governor, he stipulated a law for the Virginians not to have to pay tithes. (He could have been imprisoned for that.) Now, as we all know, for economic reasons, he and other colonial governors got together and decided to secede from England. This meant raising an army and fighting against the king's militias stationed in the colonies. Why should their imports have to pass by London before landing in New England, which raised the cost of the imports? Furthermore, why should they pay taxes to the King while they had no Representatives in the House of Commons? {The House of Lords (elderly landlords) was the equivalent of the U.S. Senate, or, to be sure, vice-versa.} So, Jefferson was commissioned to draft the Declaration of Independence of the Colonies. In it he defied the ancied the ancient belief that some men are kings by birth (by blood) and that other men are born subjects: all men are created equal, that is, neither one nor the other. He thus justified the declaration of Independence from the king. {On the contrary, some American Blacks believe that he meant to say that all men have equal abilities and that they are all entitled to have the same wealth, whether they work or not. I say: Jefferson could not have been such a jackass!} // There is another meaning to the "separation of church and state", which in Europe is known as "anti-clericalism": the Clergy should not have political (legislative) power. So, in the Middle Age there was a party for the Emperor and a party for the Pope as the supreme legislator, who would identify sins with crimes. This identification is actually made by some U.S. State-legislators. (The citizens of the republic of ancient Rome had a method to determine, non-ecclesiastically, the criminality of an act -- JURISPRUDENCE... which, as Byron would say, is the grandeur that was Rome.)
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