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Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 0:18:19 GMT
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?
Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws.
To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers.
Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would.
Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil.
Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good.
If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death.
Thoughts?
Regards DL
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 9, 2019 5:44:53 GMT
What? Jesus/God is loving. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell nor do they allow humans to kill which is a commandment. And God does cure. He cured people with leprosy, those who were blind, crippled, etc.
So the question is if that's good or evil? Of course it's good. You'd hope your doctor could do all that. If I ever found an earthly doctor who could do all that God did then I'll never want a different doctor ever again!
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 9, 2019 6:26:42 GMT
People always want to focus on the love of God but forget that a moral God would also be just. He would reward good and punish evil as they deserve. You say that a good God would cure people instead of killing them and my question is what you mean by that? Do you mean that God would do it against the person's will? That he would just point at an unrepentant and enthusiastic rapist and say, "you are cured?" Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? The former would be spiritual rape just going into a man's mind and reprogramming them into being good violating the man's freedom of choice. God doesn't do that; he allows us to choose between good and evil because if we couldn't choose between the two we'd be mindless automatons.
Regarding the latter, you are talking about rehabilitation. I have a degree in criminal justice and have studied the issue in length. The success of rehabilitation in prisons is very, very low. Seeing as that is the case, what is God to do with those that just will not be convinced to do otherwise? You know, a great many people who do not want to be cured? Is he supposed to just let them get away with their actions with no punishment whatsoever? That is not justice and that is not moral.
Next, you talk about hell and how horrible that is, but you forget that in Christianity escaping hell is actually very easy. Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross thus to wipe the slate clean and enter God's kingdom all one has to do is accept Jesus as one's lord and savior and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins. There is, of course, a debate in the church of whether faith alone saves or whether works of goodness are also required but it is generally accepted that whatever the case the Holy Spirit will give you power over sin in order to make those good works easy to do.
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Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 13:05:39 GMT
What? Jesus/God is loving. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell nor do they allow humans to kill which is a commandment. And God does cure. He cured people with leprosy, those who were blind, crippled, etc. So the question is if that's good or evil? Of course it's good. You'd hope your doctor could do all that. If I ever found an earthly doctor who could do all that God did then I'll never want a different doctor ever again! So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.
Ok.
Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 13:23:56 GMT
People always want to focus on the love of God but forget that a moral God would also be just. He would reward good and punish evil as they deserve. You say that a good God would cure people instead of killing them and my question is what you mean by that? Do you mean that God would do it against the person's will? That he would just point at an unrepentant and enthusiastic rapist and say, "you are cured?" Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? The former would be spiritual rape just going into a man's mind and reprogramming them into being good violating the man's freedom of choice. God doesn't do that; he allows us to choose between good and evil because if we couldn't choose between the two we'd be mindless automatons. Regarding the latter, you are talking about rehabilitation. I have a degree in criminal justice and have studied the issue in length. The success of rehabilitation in prisons is very, very low. Seeing as that is the case, what is God to do with those that just will not be convinced to do otherwise? You know, a great many people who do not want to be cured? Is he supposed to just let them get away with their actions with no punishment whatsoever? That is not justice and that is not moral. Next, you talk about hell and how horrible that is, but you forget that in Christianity escaping hell is actually very easy. Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross thus to wipe the slate clean and enter God's kingdom all one has to do is accept Jesus as one's lord and savior and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins.have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins. There is, of course, a debate in the church of whether faith alone saves or whether works of goodness are also required but it is generally accepted that whatever the case the Holy Spirit will give you power over sin in order to make those good works easy to do. You have opened many doors my friend and I would be here an hour to answer all areas properly. Let me do a few quick answers.
On free will. Not applicable as their free will is to live and god ignores that and kills them.
On justice/fairness. Not applicable as the fairest and most just system is a universalist system with a heaven and no hell.
"Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise?"
Convinced is what I mean as god is supposed to be omnipotent and all powerful so no one could resist his super powers of persuasion.
He is a silver tongued little devil that Yahweh. He has already convinced good people that a genocidal and infanticidal prick like him is a good god.
" Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross"
That cannot be as it breaks the laws that Jesus himself taught and that he said he came to fulfill. That idiotic belief makes Yahweh and Jesus infanticidal moral monsters. Is that not what you see? Moral people see it that way. "have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins."
Impossible as scriptures say that god doles out the grace to believe or have faith to those he will save and deny it to those, the vast majority, who he will deny grace to.
"Holy Spirit will give you power over sin"
God has given Satan dominion over us and the ability to deceive us all. To think that he will then turn around and negate one angel with another is not intelligent thinking.
Then again, neither is belief in some supernatural realm.
Regards DL
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Post by joustos on Jul 9, 2019 15:47:48 GMT
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil? Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws. To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers. Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would. Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil. Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good. If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death. Thoughts? You and your responders have brought up many [too many] issues. Some of the issues go back ancient times: The Judeans placed early Man in a "garden" where they disobeyed God's orders and were punished by expulsion, death, and pain. God was righteous and good; it was Man that sinned and brought misery upon himself. On the contrary, the Persians admitted of two gods, the good one [Aura Mazda] and the evil one, for whom the human world is their stage. In the Judeo-Christian theology, there is neither an evil god, nor evil "acts of God" which we today call "natural events or phenomena. In the Astrologial Ages and in the scientific Age, we exonerate God and men for the human sufferings and misfortunes, or the post-mortem hell. In other words, most of us believe in an a-moral universe rather than a theocratic universe of one kind or another. I see that the discussions in this thread revolve around the Biblical theocratic universe, and you wander whether Yahweh (and then Jesus) is a moral being or not. One can find Scriptural reasons to say that Yah protects His people [not humans in general]; that He incites them to kill every Philistinian man, woman, and child; that He will make the Gentile nations their footstool; that he allows Lot to marry his daughters now that his wife had become a pillar of salt; etc. Did Jesus redeem mankind by suffering on the cross? If so, those who are baptized have their sins (and the wages of sin) cancelled. But in reality, all Christians die a natural death, women bear children in pain, and men have to toil to make a living. In conclusion, the Judeo-Christian theology has to be placed in the realm of mythology.
1374 (Italy): Cecco d'Ascoli (doctor, astrologer, poet) burnt alive for Christian heresy. !600 (Italy): Giordano Bruno philosopher; anti-clerical) burnt alive for Christian heresy.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 9, 2019 16:07:16 GMT
What? Jesus/God is loving. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell nor do they allow humans to kill which is a commandment. And God does cure. He cured people with leprosy, those who were blind, crippled, etc. So the question is if that's good or evil? Of course it's good. You'd hope your doctor could do all that. If I ever found an earthly doctor who could do all that God did then I'll never want a different doctor ever again! So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.
Ok.
Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.
Regards DL
What? I seriously don't understand you at all. So trying my best to follow. 1. No one ever does. 2. After this life we all go on to live forever 3. It'll be heaven or hell but based on our choosing. So with that in mind. God never kills anyone for good. No such thing. And if someone goes to hell it's because they rejected the place God planned for them. Never give someone what they didn't want. It's rude and unloving! It's like hey do you want a bullet in your heart? No. Ok I'll shoot you. Talk about evil dude...
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Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 20:32:09 GMT
the Judeo-Christian theology has to be placed in the realm of mythology.
Well put. Thanks.
I don't think Jews ever took it out of mythology. Christianity did and did a lot of murders and inquisitions to have the rest of the world become as stupid as they are.
I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths. bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
Further. www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary.
Now, go and study it." Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 20:38:07 GMT
So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.
Ok.
Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.
Regards DL
What? I seriously don't understand you at all. So trying my best to follow. 1. No one ever does. 2. After this life we all go on to live forever 3. It'll be heaven or hell but based on our choosing. So with that in mind. God never kills anyone for good. No such thing. And if someone goes to hell it's because they rejected the place God planned for them. Never give someone what they didn't want. It's rude and unloving! It's like hey do you want a bullet in your heart? No. Ok I'll shoot you. Talk about evil dude... You understand nothing because you are always trying to limit god, while saying he has no limits and ignore truths about the scriptures that make you uncomfortable.
I cannot help you get past your brainwashing. The lying clergy must have gotten to you when young and now you are too old to think for yourself. That or too young to be intelligent. I cannot tell which from this POV.
Regards DL
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azimovclegane87
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Post by azimovclegane87 on Jul 9, 2019 23:18:20 GMT
I myself agnostic beliver now (i have almost ended Crysis of Faith and now read more about both Christianity and Buddhism) and currently have strong ties with Eastern Orthodox pastor (we almost a close friends). But more closer to topic : ) I'm not personally in deep connection (spiritual / by knowledge) with Protestantism or Catholicism - as i not culturally close to West, so i mostly will use my own (pretty subjective) interpretation of how i see God and his teachings. It mostly personal throughts - they not mean to be in line with how other people perceive it. For me how really Hell / Heavens look like and how people really get to them is beyond my real understanding (all people without spiritual revelations don't have any clear idea, as i humbly suspect); maybe we have Hell not as place of extreme torture - maybe it is materialistic (not vastly different from some places on Earth) land for people, who don't interested in what God really offer for them, basically they choose to head on in Hell, as a lot of people (i see) love to suffer and be abusive, even if tehy have means to improve their life (even if they never admit it, personally). Maybe it is something like a cosmic wasteland where people search for their own meaning of God and explore different ideas in harsh conditions. Maybe idea of Hell is just allien for our minds and even Savant of Ancient Gospells can't say for sure - what it is really means for humans? For me God is conists of 3 "Great Pillars": Love, Order /Stability and ability to shutter dogmas / icons (He is Great Iconoclast, especially for us, human beings). And again - it is hard to comperhend what God and his servants truly want for us. My humble (very subjective) opinion: if Human being don't want to be close to God and instead choose different path (Probably Materialistical one) - it is up to human being only.
And finally interesting quote (it is near sand dunes in Flandria): "" I am the Light - and you don't see Me. I am the Path - and you don't follow Me. I am the Truth - and you don't believe in Me. I am the Life - and you don't seek Me. I am the Teacher - but you don't listen to Me. I am the lord - but you don't adher to Me. I - am your God, but you don't pray for Me. I - am your Best Friend, but you don't love Me. And if you miserable - don't blame Me ""
(Sorry for my not ideal English and maybe some bizzare throughts on this topic. I wish you love and best of luck, anyone reading this) : )
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 10, 2019 3:36:56 GMT
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil? Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws. To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers. Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would. Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil. Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good. If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death. Thoughts? Regards DL Why do you think sending people to hell is purposeless?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 10, 2019 4:04:36 GMT
What? Jesus/God is loving. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell nor do they allow humans to kill which is a commandment. And God does cure. He cured people with leprosy, those who were blind, crippled, etc. So the question is if that's good or evil? Of course it's good. You'd hope your doctor could do all that. If I ever found an earthly doctor who could do all that God did then I'll never want a different doctor ever again! So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.
Ok.
Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.
Regards DL
God can do what He wants with His creation, just as you could do what you wanted with yours. Hell is punishment for sins, sins which we are all guilty of. But God, who loves us, gave us a way out of hell by giving Himself in the form of a man as a payment for all sins. God just wants you to acknowledge and believe on Him and what He did for you and for you to follow His moral laws. You have a choice to or not to.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 10, 2019 4:26:03 GMT
What? I seriously don't understand you at all. So trying my best to follow. 1. No one ever does. 2. After this life we all go on to live forever 3. It'll be heaven or hell but based on our choosing. So with that in mind. God never kills anyone for good. No such thing. And if someone goes to hell it's because they rejected the place God planned for them. Never give someone what they didn't want. It's rude and unloving! It's like hey do you want a bullet in your heart? No. Ok I'll shoot you. Talk about evil dude... You understand nothing because you are always trying to limit god, while saying he has no limits and ignore truths about the scriptures that make you uncomfortable.
I cannot help you get past your brainwashing. The lying clergy must have gotten to you when young and now you are too old to think for yourself. That or too young to be intelligent. I cannot tell which from this POV.
Regards DL
I only explained to you that you're quoting some other God and not the Christian one. And I have not limited God in anything. What did I limit Him on? He's Almighty there's is nothing even 1% too hard for Him to do and to even to in 0.2345 seconds or less.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jul 10, 2019 8:54:32 GMT
People always want to focus on the love of God but forget that a moral God would also be just. He would reward good and punish evil as they deserve. You say that a good God would cure people instead of killing them and my question is what you mean by that? Do you mean that God would do it against the person's will? That he would just point at an unrepentant and enthusiastic rapist and say, "you are cured?" Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? The former would be spiritual rape just going into a man's mind and reprogramming them into being good violating the man's freedom of choice. God doesn't do that; he allows us to choose between good and evil because if we couldn't choose between the two we'd be mindless automatons. Regarding the latter, you are talking about rehabilitation. I have a degree in criminal justice and have studied the issue in length. The success of rehabilitation in prisons is very, very low. Seeing as that is the case, what is God to do with those that just will not be convinced to do otherwise? You know, a great many people who do not want to be cured? Is he supposed to just let them get away with their actions with no punishment whatsoever? That is not justice and that is not moral. Next, you talk about hell and how horrible that is, but you forget that in Christianity escaping hell is actually very easy. Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross thus to wipe the slate clean and enter God's kingdom all one has to do is accept Jesus as one's lord and savior and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins.have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins. There is, of course, a debate in the church of whether faith alone saves or whether works of goodness are also required but it is generally accepted that whatever the case the Holy Spirit will give you power over sin in order to make those good works easy to do. You have opened many doors my friend and I would be here an hour to answer all areas properly. Let me do a few quick answers.
On free will. Not applicable as their free will is to live and god ignores that and kills them.
No, free will is to choose good which leads to life or evil which leads to death. Actions have consequences, and the consequences to these people's actions is death. Free will does not allow someone to do evil actions and not reap the payment for those actions. God is just.
On justice/fairness. Not applicable as the fairest and most just system is a universalist system with a heaven and no hell.
According to who, you? Who made you the decider of right and wrong and why should anyone listen to you? If someone else says something different than what makes your opinion supersede theirs? And no that is not a fair system. That is a system where everyone goes to heaven regardless of who they are for just existing, a reward of eternal bliss for good and evil alike and no punishment for evil. Justice is punishment for evil and reward for good and that is what heaven and hell is.
"Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise?"
Convinced is what I mean as god is supposed to be omnipotent and all powerful so no one could resist his super powers of persuasion.
If no one can resist his super powers of persuasion than it is not truly their choice to repent, it is God forcing them to repent. People have to be able to resist God's persuasion if God is truly giving them a choice between good and evil and they ARE given the power to resist. The devil was an angel of God who stood in God's presence and he was given the choice to resist and he did. Also your statement doesn't make sense as persuasion is an act in which someone is trying to convince someone else of something to do or believe according to their own free will. Yet your statement says that no one can resist Gods super power of persuasion. If no one can resist than they don't have a choice in the matter and thus are being forced into doing a certain action. Persuasion is not persuasion if it is forced.
He is a silver tongued little devil that Yahweh. He has already convinced good people that a genocidal and infanticidal prick like him is a good god.
" Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross"
That cannot be as it breaks the laws that Jesus himself taught and that he said he came to fulfill. That idiotic belief makes Yahweh and Jesus infanticidal moral monsters. Is that not what you see? Moral people see it that way. Infancidal? Jesus of his own free will sheds his position as God to become a mere mortal, lives a life of suffering all the hardships of a mortal existence, gives himself up to the Romans, is flogged and mocked and crucified and murdered, and dies taking the punishment that was meant for all of mankind and in doing so gives every human being alive a get out of Hell free card, rises again in three days and ascends to heaven to take on his position as God once again and this is immoral to you?
Jesus Christ did all of this of his own choosing because of the love he had for humanity. Jesus is God and he literally lowered himself to our level and died so we wouldn't have to suffer an eternity of torment. Calling this "infanticide" and getting all morally indignant misses the the point of this act entirely. No, I don't think that most "moral" people look at Jesus sacrifice in that manner. But then again I have no idea how you are defining morality. It seems that what is "moral" is just whatever you feel like is moral.
"have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins."
Impossible as scriptures say that god doles out the grace to believe or have faith to those he will save and deny it to those, the vast majority, who he will deny grace to.
You're talking about predestination which is very controversial in the church and is not believed by many denominations. That being said its not a subject I have studied thoroughly enough to form an opinion on. However the Bible states that anyone who comes to Jesus will not being rejected and... that is not rocket science. If you fail to do that than that is your fault. Christians are also commanded to spread the Gospel through persuasion which indicates to me that predestination isn't all there is to it and that there is an element of choice involved in salvation. "Holy Spirit will give you power over sin"
God has given Satan dominion over us and the ability to deceive us all. To think that he will then turn around and negate one angel with another is not intelligent thinking.
No, actually God has given us dominion over the devil. James 4:7 tells us to submit to God and that if you resist the Devil and he will flee from you. However that's kind of hard for those that don't believe in devils and choose not to submit to God. They are the easiest to deceive.
Then again, neither is belief in some supernatural realm.
, No supernatural realm? Are you just an atheist calling yourself a Gnostic so you can feel unique? Do you know anything at all about Gnosticism? Here's a wikipedia page so you can learn about your own religion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism Gnostics want to escape the physical realm (who they think was created by an evil God called the Demiurge) and enter the spiritual realm (the realm of the "true" God). The spiritual realm is SUPERNATURAL and so are the Aeons (lesser spirits) that Gnostics believe in.
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Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 1:14:16 GMT
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil? Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws. To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers. Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would. Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil. Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good. If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death. Thoughts? Regards DL Why do you think sending people to hell is purposeless? Obviously because I see none.
What purpose do you see?
Regards DL
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