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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 5, 2018 22:09:51 GMT
For or against and why?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 26, 2018 11:03:59 GMT
I was going to bring up how a thief was on the cross next to Christ and yet the OT punishment for stealing was not death. So where is the godly justice in Caesar’s government there? Christ, completely innocent, took the place of a murderer on the cross, next to a thief, who went to heaven after repenting nonetheless, all because of a power hungry Roman government that was afraid of a rebellion of the Jews who eventually rebelled anyway decades after Christ was crucified. I have explained this to you and others ad nauseum. Government rulers ordained by God can choose to disobey God and not follow what they are put in place by God to do. If a government is not using the sword to punish evil but instead murdering innocents it is not doing what God made it to do and is disobeying the will of God. God will punish such a ruler that does this. I am not saying that what every government does is good I am saying that Paul tells you to submit to that government, even a corrupt one unless it commands you to sin. God will take care of evil rulers. “submit to that government, even a corrupt one” I’m not seeing a command to submit yourself to a corrupt government in scripture. I see where it says rulers are set forth to punish evildoers and that we should submit unto those rulers, but when rulers are punishing good, where is the command to submit to them? I think Paul is talking strictly about rulers who are just, Peter mentions the same in 1 Peter 2
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 11:35:13 GMT
I have explained this to you and others ad nauseum. Government rulers ordained by God can choose to disobey God and not follow what they are put in place by God to do. If a government is not using the sword to punish evil but instead murdering innocents it is not doing what God made it to do and is disobeying the will of God. God will punish such a ruler that does this. I am not saying that what every government does is good I am saying that Paul tells you to submit to that government, even a corrupt one unless it commands you to sin. God will take care of evil rulers. “submit to that government, even a corrupt one” I’m not seeing a command to submit yourself to a corrupt government in scripture. I see where it says rulers are set forth to punish evildoers and that we should submit unto those rulers, but when rulers are punishing good, where is the command to submit to them? I think Paul is talking strictly about rulers who are just, Peter mentions the same in 1 Peter 2 Well, its interesting that you mention 1 Peter 2. Of interest to me especially is this verse (the one you are talking about.) 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. The emperor at this time was Nero Caesar who was a violent psychopath who burned Christians alive and murdered the guy who wrote that book and the book was written to Christians during this time of persecution to give them instruction on how to live during this dark time. Likewise it follows by mentioning slaves (or servants, one of the two words) to submit to their masters even if they are cruel, or unreasonable, or unjust (the translations vary) continuing the theme here. The book of Romans in which the passage of this debate concerns was written was also during the reign of Nero, about three years into it in fact.
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lyssyj
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Post by lyssyj on Aug 26, 2018 12:07:38 GMT
"Don't kill" Jesus said, so put them in the cages on the squares - let people watch on them.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Aug 26, 2018 13:58:54 GMT
The death penalty to me is not a very dignified practice. They should have gladiator arenas like in the old Roman times. If the relatives of killers victims want the killer's blood I think one of the relatives should hit the switch/pull the trigger/inject. But they leave it up to the State instead. I think it should be illegal unless requested by the inmate.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 14:52:50 GMT
They are not ministers to God if they are against God. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Acts:4:26 The world is overall against God. If the rulers on earth now were real ministers then they deserve to all go to heaven if they're obeying God. But they do not obey God and their darkness will be destroyed by God. Sin/sinner don't/doesn't minister to God...it only reigns until God puts an end to it. God is just patient and puts up with it but he'll take vengeance still. We're literally commanded to wrestle with the rulers on earth.... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians:6:12 Again, rulers that God ordains can choose to abuse their power and rebel against God. God destroys those rulers. Principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of the world, spiritual wickedness in the high places, these are common words used to describe angels or rather fallen angels. The verse preceding what you quoted Ephesians 11 makes this clear, Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. The word FOR shows that Paul is referencing the previous verse in standing against the wiles of the devil and his fallen angels. This is a spiritual war against spiritual forces that tempt mankind and corrupt the world. All rulers on earth do evil. Idk why this is even a question if they do good when none work for God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 15:07:08 GMT
“submit to that government, even a corrupt one” I’m not seeing a command to submit yourself to a corrupt government in scripture. I see where it says rulers are set forth to punish evildoers and that we should submit unto those rulers, but when rulers are punishing good, where is the command to submit to them? I think Paul is talking strictly about rulers who are just, Peter mentions the same in 1 Peter 2 Well, its interesting that you mention 1 Peter 2. Of interest to me especially is this verse (the one you are talking about.) 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. The emperor at this time was Nero Caesar who was a violent psychopath who burned Christians alive and murdered the guy who wrote that book and the book was written to Christians during this time of persecution to give them instruction on how to live during this dark time. Likewise it follows by mentioning slaves (or servants, one of the two words) to submit to their masters even if they are cruel, or unreasonable, or unjust (the translations vary) continuing the theme here. The book of Romans in which the passage of this debate concerns was written was also during the reign of Nero, about three years into it in fact. Yeah, we don't kill the cruel masters nor hurt them but they're still not workers or ministers of God. And many people have bad masters or bosses but we can leave them and get a new master/boss too. Christians aren't allowed to serve just any master but God if you remember a verse like that. I assume satan is a minister of God to you too? So when they tell you to take the mark of the beast you will gladly do so? You'll be the one they'll love then while the Christians they will kill since we will refuse them. God even told Christians they're working against us. He told us not to worry though because "He will teach us what to say to them" it says. God will fight them on our behalf. Why will God fight them if they're His ministers? Because they're against us and God. They must be taken down of course because they stand in the way of righteousness.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 26, 2018 16:56:33 GMT
“submit to that government, even a corrupt one” I’m not seeing a command to submit yourself to a corrupt government in scripture. I see where it says rulers are set forth to punish evildoers and that we should submit unto those rulers, but when rulers are punishing good, where is the command to submit to them? I think Paul is talking strictly about rulers who are just, Peter mentions the same in 1 Peter 2 Well, its interesting that you mention 1 Peter 2. Of interest to me especially is this verse (the one you are talking about.) 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. The emperor at this time was Nero Caesar who was a violent psychopath who burned Christians alive and murdered the guy who wrote that book and the book was written to Christians during this time of persecution to give them instruction on how to live during this dark time. Likewise it follows by mentioning slaves (or servants, one of the two words) to submit to their masters even if they are cruel, or unreasonable, or unjust (the translations vary) continuing the theme here. The book of Romans in which the passage of this debate concerns was written was also during the reign of Nero, about three years into it in fact. Nero didn’t start executing Christians until 64AD, but it doesn’t matter. The accounts of Peter and Paul dying by the hands of Roman ruler Nero are not recorded in the Bible, they’re recorded in apocrypha. I agree that we are to suffer and be martyrs for Christ as He did the same for us, but to submit ourselves unto evil rulers I do not see. You even said yourself that we shouldn’t if they want us to sin or not spread the gospel. Murder is a sin, so if a government wants us to murder people(a death penalty would be considered premeditated), we shouldn’t obey, correct?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Aug 26, 2018 19:16:51 GMT
DKTrav88 and Elizabeth I have a choice; I can waste my birthday debating about this topic for hours or we can just agree to disagree. Someone has to take the highroad and as long as one of us re butts the points of the other, the other one will feel obligated to respond to those points. So, anyways lets just agree to disagree and end this here. I enjoyed this conversation but its time to let it end here.
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Bigbufyboy85
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Post by Bigbufyboy85 on Aug 26, 2018 21:34:38 GMT
Elizabeth,
Do you think there is every a time for the death penalty/killing someone?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 26, 2018 21:37:00 GMT
Elizabeth, Do you think there is every a time for the death penalty/killing someone? Yes, the second death when God will give it to people after judgement
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Post by Διαμονδ on Aug 27, 2018 16:39:18 GMT
Totally against it! No one should take a person's life.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Aug 27, 2018 16:41:13 GMT
DKTrav88 and Elizabeth I have a choice; I can waste my birthday debating about this topic for hours or we can just agree to disagree. Someone has to take the highroad and as long as one of us re butts the points of the other, the other one will feel obligated to respond to those points. So, anyways lets just agree to disagree and end this here. I enjoyed this conversation but its time to let it end here. Although I do not agree with you on this issue but to impose your position on another person is strange. Shrug
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Amplify
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Post by Amplify on Sept 12, 2018 20:09:19 GMT
it's a good question for 2 reasons the obvious moral ramifications of taking someone's life and secondly the power that we are giving the state
now let's start at reason 1 the moral issue since taking someone's life is unthinkable and should not be done one would say no but if the person we are talking about made the decision to end someone's life and was able to do so should he than not pay the price with his own?
the second reason is the power we'd be handing the state now of course handing the state the power to kill is dangerous and that's where i'd say no
so were did we end up? well if the criminal kills a man i'd feel he made his choice and should answer for it the problem i have is giving the state such power
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 12, 2018 23:48:45 GMT
it's a good question for 2 reasons the obvious moral ramifications of taking someone's life and secondly the power that we are giving the state now let's start at reason 1 the moral issue since taking someone's life is unthinkable and should not be done one would say no but if the person we are talking about made the decision to end someone's life and was able to do so should he than not pay the price with his own? the second reason is the power we'd be handing the state now of course handing the state the power to kill is dangerous and that's where i'd say no so were did we end up? well if the criminal kills a man i'd feel he made his choice and should answer for it the problem i have is giving the state such power I agree with this and I'm sure those who abort babies God will make sure they pay for it. Shrug But if the old way of a life for a life was enforced today then yeah the parent would be stoned to death or something :/
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Post by Lone Wanderer on Sept 17, 2018 23:22:23 GMT
I'm against it. Life imprisonment and penal labor = better solution
Why I'm against death penalty? In my opinion, we have no right to end someone's life because we didn't give them life/birth. Plus death penalty is a gift to those criminals. Why? Because they just escape from punishment and they won't pay for their crimes.
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