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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 7:36:55 GMT
I want a moral non-racist religion. What are my options? I see only traditional Anabaptism and Islam. Islam seems like a better fit for me as an Old Testament follower. By converting, I would finally be part of a religious community. So should I convert?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jun 29, 2018 21:44:16 GMT
adrasteia Well you are lucky that modern Turkey is a secular state and there is no more fanaticism that before!
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 21:52:48 GMT
why do u feel the need to opt for a religion? I want to be part of a community, not a hermit. I don't care. As long as it is better than horrible modern culture, that is good enough.
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 21:55:39 GMT
Why don’t you believe in the legitimacy of the NT? There is a lot in the Quran that I can't judge to be true or false. But in the NT, I cannot believe that Jesus was God. This violates my concept of the oneness of God. And I think people are generally horrible creatures and the idea that God would take such a revolting form doesn't appeal to me.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jun 29, 2018 21:57:09 GMT
Why don’t you believe in the legitimacy of the NT? There is a lot in the Quran that I can't judge to be true or false. But in the NT, I cannot believe that Jesus was God. This violates my concept of the oneness of God. And I think people are generally horrible creatures and the idea that God would take such a revolting form doesn't appeal to me. But the Torah says that man is the image and likeness of God.
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 22:00:04 GMT
Regarding the original question by fschmidt - if you cannot make such decision by yourself, then whom you expect to do that for you? If you think Muslims are right and everybody else is wrong then that would be a good idea. If you don't then what's the point? Islam isn't exactly right, more like least wrong. So the choice is join the least wrong community or be a hermit.
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 22:05:24 GMT
But the Torah says that man is [in] the image and likeness of God. That's a good point, but I would say that it is a matter of degree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 23:30:06 GMT
fschmidtOkay, even if you will choose Islam just for the sake of being a part of community. Which community will that be? Sunni? Shia? What jurisprudence? Islam is not monolithic.
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 29, 2018 23:45:19 GMT
fschmidt Okay, even if you will choose Islam just for the sake of being a part of community. Which community will that be? Sunni? Shia? What jurisprudence? Islam is not monolithic. My local mosque is sunni, but reasonable muslims don't care much about these divisions. (All muslims are welcome at my mosque.) I also don't care about jurisprudence, I will do what makes sense to me.
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Post by x on Jun 30, 2018 0:10:51 GMT
fschmidt Just gonna drop this here 2:216-217 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 0:23:22 GMT
fschmidt Okay, even if you will choose Islam just for the sake of being a part of community. Which community will that be? Sunni? Shia? What jurisprudence? Islam is not monolithic. My local mosque is sunni, but reasonable muslims don't care much about these divisions. (All muslims are welcome at my mosque.) I also don't care about jurisprudence, I will do what makes sense to me. So what matters here is being simply labeled as Muslim without being Muslim from practical point of view?
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Post by fschmidt on Jun 30, 2018 0:40:50 GMT
So what matters here is being simply labeled as Muslim without being Muslim from practical point of view? The only practical point is belonging to the community. There is little practical difference between the Islamic sects. And Islamic jurisprudence has no practical implications unless there is an Islamic government. Regarding practice, I would keep the basic 5 pillars to some degree. I would learn the Muslim prayer and do it at least once per day. I would keep a limited Ramadan (fasting but still drinking water). I would give charity and maybe do the trip to Mecca eventually. So I would be a practicing Muslim, even if not perfect from the mainstream view.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 1:05:38 GMT
fschmidt To be honest I don't see the point in conversion to Islam then, in your case.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 30, 2018 1:28:43 GMT
Why don’t you believe in the legitimacy of the NT? There is a lot in the Quran that I can't judge to be true or false. But in the NT, I cannot believe that Jesus was God. This violates my concept of the oneness of God. And I think people are generally horrible creatures and the idea that God would take such a revolting form doesn't appeal to me. My first response was removed for whatever reason. Guess I have to keep it short so I don’t upset certain admins shrug I was trying to ask you how you explain the “us”, “us, “our”, and “our” in Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22. What does God mean by “us”, “us, “our”, and “our”? Doesn’t this support the Trinity?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 3:06:02 GMT
Why do you want to choose this, which is going to collapse? In fact, ask a true muslim about the last verses of islam, and he will, if he is true sunni, will tell you in tears, that prophet himself said that after his death, and with the ullemas dying, islam will be followed by those who are not capable, and they muslims of future will be coward. Today's muslims are not those who belonged to bedouin arabs. People of saudi arabia themselves have progressed a lot, by modifying their own code of conduct, which is correct. They themselves say that we are true muslims, and now, have no intention of islamization of world, that era is over.
Also, not to forget, today's muslims, especially the Indian ones are doing things which are totally HARAAM or FORBIDDEN. Prophet had said like singing and dancing is un-islamic, but bollywood is propagating islam through songs. Virtually, all the songs of bollywood will have verses like ALLAH, MAULLA, which is completely forbidden. Chanting the names of islamic god in public is not allowed in islam, yet indian muslims display it through mass media.
One of my friend told me, which I don't know how much is true, that signs of the collapse of islam is that when the heights of minarets will grow, muslims will become more fanatic of reading namaz, like in public, this is the sign of the collapse of islam.
Banu qureshi tribes were entirely different.
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Post by joustos on Jun 30, 2018 17:21:12 GMT
There is a lot in the Quran that I can't judge to be true or false. But in the NT, I cannot believe that Jesus was God. This violates my concept of the oneness of God. And I think people are generally horrible creatures and the idea that God would take such a revolting form doesn't appeal to me. My first response was removed for whatever reason. Guess I have to keep it short so I don’t upset certain admins I was trying to ask you how you explain the “us”, “us, “our”, and “our” in Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22. What does God mean by “us ”, “us, “o Yahwehur”, and “our”? Doesn’t this support the Trinity? Gentlemen: According to the OT, there is no such a thing as ONE God. Genesis-1 speaks of the Elohim (the supreme gods) and clearly says: Let's make Man in OUR image [like US], one male and one female. On the contrary, Genesis-2 speaks of ONE God, presented by Moses as the one god who is jealous and does not tolerate the worshipping of other gods (mentioned here and there in the Bible): Yahweh. The adoption of only one god, or the belief in only one god, he called Henotheism, whereas Monotheism is the belief that there exists only one god. Authentic (Orthodox) Christianity is monotheistic, but it is complicated by the fact that this one God is three persons [the Father or Creator or Yahweh or else the El of the Elohim], the Word [Logos, who became incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth [the Son], and the Holy Spirit or Paraclete [the Breath of the Father which made the Adam statue alive, etc.] The concept of one divine substance differentiated into three persons or individuals, is the Christian theological problem for which there is no solution. Anyway, this Trinity does not include El or Allah. So, Christianity and Islam are contradictory: both cannot be true; possibly neither one is true. Furthermore "Islam" is Submission to the will of Allah or, in practical terms, to the theology of the priesthood, whereas Christians are expected to be saved by the Christ..... a subject of endless discussions, since baptized people do not escape the "wages of sin", namely suffering and death..... For a Christian or for a Jew to convert to Islam is literally insane, irrational.
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