Supermentalita
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''A man destined to hang can never drown''
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Post by Supermentalita on Jan 11, 2018 12:00:36 GMT
The influential US think-tank the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) has the Balkans on its conflict prevention list in its recently published 2018 survey. www.rt.com/op-edge/415578-balkans-yugoslavia-stability-nato-us/However the idea, promoted by the CFR, that the US is the country that can help preserve ‘peace and stability‘ needs to be challenged – as it is the US and its closest NATO allies themselves who are actually responsible for many of the problems currently afflicting the region. These problems all stem from the violent break-up of the multi-ethnic Yugoslavia in the 1990s, a process which the western powers supported and indeed actively encouraged. But this is not mentioned in the CFR’s background paper‘The Unravelling of the Balkan Peace Agreements’ (Contingency Planning Memorandum No 32). Instead it’s the Russians who, surprise, surprise, are cast as the bad guys – with "Russian destabilization of Montenegro or Macedonia" listed as one of the possible 2018 scenarios. The truth is however that all the possible "flash points" identified by the CFR- which could lead to conflict, can be directly linked not to Moscow but to the consequences of earlier US or western-led interventions and destabilization campaigns. Let’s start with the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Here the CFR’s concern is an independence referendum being held in Republika Srpska. But the Americans, who have championed self-determination for Kosovan Albanians as part of their strategy of prizing Kosovo away from Yugoslavia, and then Serbia, can hardly oppose Bosnian Serbs voting to decide their own future. If the "territorial integrity" of Bosnia matters so much, why didn’t the "territorial integrity" of Yugoslavia? In Kosovo itself, tensions remain high between the Albanian and Serbian populations. NATO’s ‘humanitarian’ intervention of 1999 was supposed to have resolved all this, but in fact it was the west who greatly stirred things up with their backing of the hardline Kosovan Liberation Army and marginalization of moderate Kosovan voices who favored dialogue with Belgrade. Macedonia is another potential ‘flash point.’ The CFR warns that disaffected sections of the large Albanian minority could look to unite with Kosovo or Albania. In Montenegro, ethnic Serbs in the north still reject the ‘independent’ government in Podgorica and look instead to Belgrade. “Ethnic politics in the Balkans are interconnected,” the CFR says. “If Republika Srpska tries to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina, some Serbs in northern Kosovo will try to leave Kosovo, and some Albanians in southern Serbia will try to leave Serbia. Some Muslims in Serbia could also want to unite with what remains of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If Macedonia is partitioned, its Albanians could want a union with Kosovo and potentially with Albania and Albanian-majority municipalities of southern Serbia, which would trigger the ethnic partitions of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, and Serbia,” their report states. If that all sounds pretty complicated, then perhaps you can understand why so many people in the region are nostalgic for Yugoslavia. “For the 50 years of Yugoslavia and Tito’s rule, the Balkans were stable. They weren’t considered the powder keg of Europe. And now we are back to being the powder keg,” was the view of one Antonye Nedelkovski, a former Partisan, quoted in PRI’s article The Rise of Yugo-Nostalgia, in 2015. Last year a Gallup poll, reported by RFE/RL, showed that clear majorities in Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Macedonia, and 45 percent of people in Slovenia – which are usually regarded as the most ‘successful’ ex-Yugoslav republics – thought the breakup of Yugoslavia was a bad thing. Yugoslavia gave the people of the Balkans not just stability, but economic security. It made sense for the people of the region to come together in one federal state. ‘Brotherhood and Unity’ was much better for everybody than ethnic tensions and disunity. As Besim Spahic, quoted in the RFE/RL piece, says: “In [Josip Broz] Tito’s Yugoslavia, Bosnia was defined as a common state of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. The focus was on shared values between different ethnic groups. Now the differences are highlighted and blown out of proportion.” Yugoslavia achieved enormous success in the fields of culture, sport, art, education and human development. Its destruction was a tragedy not just for the people of the Balkans but for mankind in general. In the old Cold War, non-aligned socialist Yugoslavia served a purpose for the West. The Yugoslav President, the former wartime Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito, generally received a good press. Leftist intellectuals wrote enthusiastically about the Yugoslav model of workers’ self-management. Westerners watched and enjoyed high quality Yugoslav films and television programs and booked package holidays to the country. But, after the Berlin Wall came down, Yugoslavia became ‘the expendable nation.’ In the words of George Kenney, a Yugoslav desk officer at the US State Department, “no place remained for a large independent-minded socialist state that resisted globalization.” Germany actively supported and encouraged the secession of Slovenia and Croatia from the Yugoslav Federation. The creation of an ‘independent’ Bosnia was more of a US project. The US backed the separatist Alija Izetbegovic and effectively sabotaged a peaceful solution to the Bosnian question when Ambassador Warren Zimmerman persuaded Izetbegovic to renege on his signing of the EU-sponsored Lisbon Accord in 1992. Zimmerman, as I have noted previously, effectively lit the touch paper for a brutal war in which around 100,000 people are thought to have lost their lives. In place of one strong Yugoslav state, there are now a number of small, economically-weak states in the Balkans. This suits the US, with its imperial strategy of Divide et Imperia, just fine, but is clearly against the best interests of the people of the region. The only way the problems of the Balkans can be solved is by going back in time. The gradual reconstruction of a multiethnic Yugoslav Federation – with full, guaranteed rights for all its citizens – and a friendship agreement being reached with Albania, which perhaps could be offered ‘associate’ membership, is the logical solution to the current divisions. Yugoslavia made sense in the 20th century and it makes just as much sense today. Only don’t expect the CFR, for all its concerns about ‘flash points’ in the Balkans, to recommend it.
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amenemhab
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 11, 2018 14:58:41 GMT
These problems all stem from the violent break-up of the multi-ethnic Yugoslavia in the 1990s, a process which the western powers supported and indeed actively encouraged. I hope you’re not one of those fellas the Kremlin pays to decorate Internet media with pro-Russian posts, as you’ve been citing Russia Today a lot. Don’t get me wrong—I like RT, which covers some news no one else does. When it was a paid newspaper insert, it even had a Russian language lesson for kids on its back page. Its publishers have assembled a high-quality newsroom having a place in our world of media. Yet it’s the voice of the Kremlin, and I never forget that.
With Trump-Russia probes ongoing in the US Senate and being conducted by the FBI, the possible influence of Vladimir Putin and his supporters on US politics, during the 2016 Election and now, remains a matter of concern here. What US news agencies call “Kremlin trolls” are one tactic Russia is using, although as educated, influential Americans usually have the ability to evaluate bias in sources, the effectiveness of Internet propaganda is limited. Trump won mostly by luck, and because Hillary Clinton made mistakes in her campaign’s final weeks, not because of Russian intervention.
And why the red roses of Lancaster from England’s 15th century in your avatar? I’m curious.Philip A. Haigh Wars of the Roses www.warsoftheroses.com/Yugoslavia gave the people of the Balkans not just stability, but economic security. It made sense for the people of the region to come together in one federal state. Although Tito deployed brutal armed force to maintain order in his Yugoslavia, I agree with your general statement. The united country was more powerful, economically, politically and militarily, than the gaggle of tiny successor states has been. It was able to break from the USSR’s Warsaw Pact to pursue an independent path; nor did NATO ever try bombing it while Tito held office. Yugoslavia enjoyed domestic interethnic tranquility and a higher standard of living than Bosnia does now. It even manufactured an automobile, the Yugo, sold in the USA for some years.
Yet the other Yugoslavian groups resented the nation’s Serb dominance. Leaders in Belgrade, far from obtaining negotiated solutions to this problem, exacerbated it, culminating in the 1990s with Pres. Milosevic’s vicious assault on Sarajevo and the atrocities he committed in the Bosnian countryside. Fortunately, peace has been restored, yet tensions simmer. Serbs remember the 14th and 15th century Ottoman invasions of the Balkans which created Bosnia in the first place. Catholic Croats remember the Reformation and the Thirty Years’ War. And I doubt Bosniaks will ever forget the 1995 Srebenica massacre and its death camps.
As our nations continue to war and fail to unite in the planetary civilization humanity deserves, our prospects for stabilizing the world population size, banning nuclear weapons, curbing climate change and, eventually, colonizing other celestial bodies to make new homes, diminishes by the day. Let’s wise up and reverse that anger. I regret that US warplanes bombed Serbia in 1999, along with the planes of Germany and other NATO members, yet Serbia wouldn’t abandon its domestic repressions in Kosovo any other way. Serbia might yet join the EU and/or NATO someday. I hope it does.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 16:06:37 GMT
Yugoslavia was dysfunctional by late 80's.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 11, 2018 20:16:35 GMT
These problems all stem from the violent break-up of the multi-ethnic Yugoslavia in the 1990s, a process which the western powers supported and indeed actively encouraged. I hope you’re not one of those fellas the Kremlin pays to decorate Internet media with pro-Russian posts, as you’ve been citing Russia Today a lot. Don’t get me wrong—I like RT, which covers some news no one else does. When it was a paid newspaper insert, it even had a Russian language lesson for kids on its back page. Its publishers have assembled a high-quality newsroom having a place in our world of media. Yet it’s the voice of the Kremlin, and I never forget that.
With Trump-Russia probes ongoing in the US Senate and being conducted by the FBI, the possible influence of Vladimir Putin and his supporters on US politics, during the 2016 Election and now, remains a matter of concern here. What US news agencies call “Kremlin trolls” are one tactic Russia is using, although as educated, influential Americans usually have the ability to evaluate bias in sources, the effectiveness of Internet propaganda is limited. Trump won mostly by luck, and because Hillary Clinton made mistakes in her campaign’s final weeks, not because of Russian intervention.
And why the red roses of Lancaster from England’s 15th century in your avatar? I’m curious.Philip A. Haigh Wars of the Roses www.warsoftheroses.com/Yugoslavia gave the people of the Balkans not just stability, but economic security. It made sense for the people of the region to come together in one federal state. Although Tito deployed brutal armed force to maintain order in his Yugoslavia, I agree with your general statement. The united country was more powerful, economically, politically and militarily, than the gaggle of tiny successor states has been. It was able to break from the USSR’s Warsaw Pact to pursue an independent path; nor did NATO ever try bombing it while Tito held office. Yugoslavia enjoyed domestic interethnic tranquility and a higher standard of living than Bosnia does now. It even manufactured an automobile, the Yugo, sold in the USA for some years.
Yet the other Yugoslavian groups resented the nation’s Serb dominance. Leaders in Belgrade, far from obtaining negotiated solutions to this problem, exacerbated it, culminating in the 1990s with Pres. Milosevic’s vicious assault on Sarajevo and the atrocities he committed in the Bosnian countryside. Fortunately, peace has been restored, yet tensions simmer. Serbs remember the 14th and 15th century Ottoman invasions of the Balkans which created Bosnia in the first place. Catholic Croats remember the Reformation and the Thirty Years’ War. And I doubt Bosniaks will ever forget the 1995 Srebenica massacre and its death camps.
As our nations continue to war and fail to unite in the planetary civilization humanity deserves, our prospects for stabilizing the world population size, banning nuclear weapons, curbing climate change and, eventually, colonizing other celestial bodies to make new homes, diminishes by the day. Let’s wise up and reverse that anger. I regret that US warplanes bombed Serbia in 1999, along with the planes of Germany and other NATO members, yet Serbia wouldn’t abandon its domestic repressions in Kosovo any other way. Serbia might yet join the EU and/or NATO someday. I hope it does.
Words cannot accurately describe how little I want a planetary civilization. I don't want people who have nothing in common with me and an untold numerical advantage such as the Chinese, Indians, or Sub Saharan Africans to have a vote in anything that effects me. I like nation states because people who share a common cultural outlook are able to govern themselves as they see fit. A Chinaman should have no say in the politics of an Englishman or more famously a Tibetan. I even question the validity of the American South where I live staying in the United States as our values diverge significantly from the rest of the United States. Besides in Christianity the coming of a one world government is a sign of the end times and is viewed pretty negatively by the Bible (see the Tower of Babel.)
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amenemhab
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 12, 2018 0:12:00 GMT
Words cannot accurately describe how little I want a planetary civilization....I like nation states because people who share a common cultural outlook are able to govern themselves as they see fit.... I doubt nation-states will disappear in global governance, at least not for a long time. We already have an integrated worldwide civilization in economic respects. If you live in the UK or USA, few of the nonfood consumer goods you buy are made in your own country anymore. They’re made in China. In fact, stuff’s made internationally, the parts for a car assembled in Brazil and shipped for sale in Chile might come from 30 countries, including the USA.
Self-determination won’t do us any good if we have a global thermonuclear war, or an environment so polluted we can’t live in it, or a world where petroleum and minerals become depleted enough to cut industrial production. While much law and custom should stay local, some issues will have to be managed cooperatively, by an authority having enough teeth to enforce the agreements. It’s coming, whether we like it or not, unless the end of our modern, high-tech lifestyle comes first.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 12, 2018 0:19:01 GMT
I find it amusing to read when some write 'Kremlin trolls' and others 'State Department Trolls' when in fact these ordinary people write what they like and from the sources that they have!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 12, 2018 0:23:45 GMT
...As for Trump and Hilary, I have no doubt that the causal defeat of the Democrats is the unskilled policy of Obama, who naively wanted to retain their power in the person of Clinton and beyond, and now they invented Putin's intervention and so on.
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amenemhab
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 12, 2018 0:44:43 GMT
I find it amusing to read when some write 'Kremlin trolls' and others 'State Department Trolls' ... There are in fact various “trolls” from the US intelligence agencies putting disinformation online. Note that I didn’t call Supermentalita a troll; I dislike the term although it’s what news media use. I said, “I hope you’re not one of those fellas the Kremlin pays to decorate Internet media with pro-Russian posts.” I will confess here that I have no idea if that’s the case. While Russia does seem to like trolling, it relies on conventional modes of propaganda and image management far more than it uses disruptive tactics. Russia Today, despite being privately owned, is an example—effectively a state news organ.
Supermentalita hasn’t been attacking people on this web site. I even agreed with his conclusion that the breakup of Yugoslavia did not serve its constituent peoples well. But he has reposted a considerable amount of material from RT. Hence my remark.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 12, 2018 1:00:07 GMT
I have no doubt that all news resources have propaganda. This applies to RT, Fox News,CNN, BBC and other(In this regard, I am absolutely in agreement with Trump!) but I will not oppose freedom of speech. Each product has its own customer.
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amenemhab
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 12, 2018 1:15:16 GMT
I have no doubt that all news resources have propaganda. This applies to RT, Fox News,CNN, ... but I will not oppose freedom of speech... I told Supermentalita that I like RT because it has content, especially on Russia, which ABC and Fox omit. But I did remind him it’s a Kremlin point of view, whereas Fox leans right-wing but remains independent of Washington. RT’s orientation in itself is interesting, as knowing something about how Russian leaders see the world is worthwhile. I also like al-Jazeera for coverage on the Gulf. Fox has improved a lot since Roger Ailes left it, along with Beck, Hannity, and O’Reilly—all of whom have their own private outlets now. Diversity in media is a blessing.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 16:48:28 GMT
I hope you’re not one of those fellas the Kremlin pays to decorate Internet media with pro-Russian posts, as you’ve been citing Russia Today a lot. Don’t get me wrong—I like RT, which covers some news no one else does. When it was a paid newspaper insert, it even had a Russian language lesson for kids on its back page. Its publishers have assembled a high-quality newsroom having a place in our world of media. Yet it’s the voice of the Kremlin, and I never forget that.
With Trump-Russia probes ongoing in the US Senate and being conducted by the FBI, the possible influence of Vladimir Putin and his supporters on US politics, during the 2016 Election and now, remains a matter of concern here. What US news agencies call “Kremlin trolls” are one tactic Russia is using, although as educated, influential Americans usually have the ability to evaluate bias in sources, the effectiveness of Internet propaganda is limited. Trump won mostly by luck, and because Hillary Clinton made mistakes in her campaign’s final weeks, not because of Russian intervention.
And why the red roses of Lancaster from England’s 15th century in your avatar? I’m curious.Philip A. Haigh Wars of the Roses www.warsoftheroses.com/Although Tito deployed brutal armed force to maintain order in his Yugoslavia, I agree with your general statement. The united country was more powerful, economically, politically and militarily, than the gaggle of tiny successor states has been. It was able to break from the USSR’s Warsaw Pact to pursue an independent path; nor did NATO ever try bombing it while Tito held office. Yugoslavia enjoyed domestic interethnic tranquility and a higher standard of living than Bosnia does now. It even manufactured an automobile, the Yugo, sold in the USA for some years.
Yet the other Yugoslavian groups resented the nation’s Serb dominance. Leaders in Belgrade, far from obtaining negotiated solutions to this problem, exacerbated it, culminating in the 1990s with Pres. Milosevic’s vicious assault on Sarajevo and the atrocities he committed in the Bosnian countryside. Fortunately, peace has been restored, yet tensions simmer. Serbs remember the 14th and 15th century Ottoman invasions of the Balkans which created Bosnia in the first place. Catholic Croats remember the Reformation and the Thirty Years’ War. And I doubt Bosniaks will ever forget the 1995 Srebenica massacre and its death camps.
As our nations continue to war and fail to unite in the planetary civilization humanity deserves, our prospects for stabilizing the world population size, banning nuclear weapons, curbing climate change and, eventually, colonizing other celestial bodies to make new homes, diminishes by the day. Let’s wise up and reverse that anger. I regret that US warplanes bombed Serbia in 1999, along with the planes of Germany and other NATO members, yet Serbia wouldn’t abandon its domestic repressions in Kosovo any other way. Serbia might yet join the EU and/or NATO someday. I hope it does.
Words cannot accurately describe how little I want a planetary civilization. I don't want people who have nothing in common with me and an untold numerical advantage such as the Chinese, Indians, or Sub Saharan Africans to have a vote in anything that effects me. I like nation states because people who share a common cultural outlook are able to govern themselves as they see fit. A Chinaman should have no say in the politics of an Englishman or more famously a Tibetan. I even question the validity of the American South where I live staying in the United States as our values diverge significantly from the rest of the United States. Besides in Christianity the coming of a one world government is a sign of the end times and is viewed pretty negatively by the Bible (see the Tower of Babel.) Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated
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khaos
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Post by khaos on Jan 12, 2018 17:31:56 GMT
Hahaahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahaaahahahahhaahha......
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 12, 2018 20:28:57 GMT
Tito was a good leader! Milosevic? I doubt it!
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Supermentalita
Full Member
''A man destined to hang can never drown''
Posts: 275
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Age: 25
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Post by Supermentalita on Jan 17, 2018 11:50:19 GMT
These problems all stem from the violent break-up of the multi-ethnic Yugoslavia in the 1990s, a process which the western powers supported and indeed actively encouraged. I hope you’re not one of those fellas the Kremlin pays to decorate Internet media with pro-Russian posts, as you’ve been citing Russia Today a lot. Don’t get me wrong—I like RT, which covers some news no one else does. When it was a paid newspaper insert, it even had a Russian language lesson for kids on its back page. Its publishers have assembled a high-quality newsroom having a place in our world of media. Yet it’s the voice of the Kremlin, and I never forget that.
With Trump-Russia probes ongoing in the US Senate and being conducted by the FBI, the possible influence of Vladimir Putin and his supporters on US politics, during the 2016 Election and now, remains a matter of concern here. What US news agencies call “Kremlin trolls” are one tactic Russia is using, although as educated, influential Americans usually have the ability to evaluate bias in sources, the effectiveness of Internet propaganda is limited. Trump won mostly by luck, and because Hillary Clinton made mistakes in her campaign’s final weeks, not because of Russian intervention.
And why the red roses of Lancaster from England’s 15th century in your avatar? I’m curious.Philip A. Haigh Wars of the Roses www.warsoftheroses.com/Yugoslavia gave the people of the Balkans not just stability, but economic security. It made sense for the people of the region to come together in one federal state. Although Tito deployed brutal armed force to maintain order in his Yugoslavia, I agree with your general statement. The united country was more powerful, economically, politically and militarily, than the gaggle of tiny successor states has been. It was able to break from the USSR’s Warsaw Pact to pursue an independent path; nor did NATO ever try bombing it while Tito held office. Yugoslavia enjoyed domestic interethnic tranquility and a higher standard of living than Bosnia does now. It even manufactured an automobile, the Yugo, sold in the USA for some years.
Yet the other Yugoslavian groups resented the nation’s Serb dominance. Leaders in Belgrade, far from obtaining negotiated solutions to this problem, exacerbated it, culminating in the 1990s with Pres. Milosevic’s vicious assault on Sarajevo and the atrocities he committed in the Bosnian countryside. Fortunately, peace has been restored, yet tensions simmer. Serbs remember the 14th and 15th century Ottoman invasions of the Balkans which created Bosnia in the first place. Catholic Croats remember the Reformation and the Thirty Years’ War. And I doubt Bosniaks will ever forget the 1995 Srebenica massacre and its death camps.
As our nations continue to war and fail to unite in the planetary civilization humanity deserves, our prospects for stabilizing the world population size, banning nuclear weapons, curbing climate change and, eventually, colonizing other celestial bodies to make new homes, diminishes by the day. Let’s wise up and reverse that anger. I regret that US warplanes bombed Serbia in 1999, along with the planes of Germany and other NATO members, yet Serbia wouldn’t abandon its domestic repressions in Kosovo any other way. Serbia might yet join the EU and/or NATO someday. I hope it does.
Yes Russia pays me lots. I'am swimming in money these days.
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Supermentalita
Full Member
''A man destined to hang can never drown''
Posts: 275
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Post by Supermentalita on Jan 17, 2018 11:51:41 GMT
Has there ever been stability in the Balkans?
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