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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 13, 2019 5:36:17 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 0:34:52 GMT
Reminders? I never heard of people praying to reminders or whatever. Like I've pictures in albums but they're just there as reminders. They're not taken out to be prayed to or whatever. They're stuffed into an album and put away on a shelf or in a drawer. Like in a storage place that's of no significance. Not out treated like some famous original artwork at all times by some famous (by someone's opinion only) artist. Like it's worth a foot or a leg when it's just a plain object.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 14, 2019 0:37:05 GMT
Statues are fine by me for art. Praying to statues looks very much like idolatry. Praying to a statue and using the statue as a visualization are two different things. Explain the difference. What does a Catholic use a statue of Mary for?
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,697
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 14, 2019 0:53:44 GMT
Explain the difference. What does a Catholic use a statue of Mary for? Visualization and memory. Orthodox do the same with icons. Muslims rever her as well. As mother of God she represents the divine feminine as God quite literally existed through her for Christian Tradition. They effectively, due to birth, are were one body. We protestants don't see Mary as the divine anything. She was a good woman whom God chose for a special purpose. This "divine feminine" business is found nowhere in scripture and to us would be idolatry.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 14, 2019 1:46:17 GMT
Explain the difference. What does a Catholic use a statue of Mary for? Visualization and memory. Orthodox do the same with icons. Muslims rever her as well. As mother of God she represents the divine feminine as God quite literally existed through her for Christian Tradition. They effectively, due to birth, are were one body. The Catholics say they do it to venerate/reverence Mary, but veneration/reverence are synonyms for worship, so it would seem they are worshipping Mary. There isn't really a point in a "visualization and memory" of Mary, as the Bible never gives a physical description of Mary, so people don't know who they are actually reverencing/venerating/worshipping. If they need to be reminded of her, then they can refer to scripture and what scripture says about her. The Bible never gives her the title of "Mother of God" or "Queen of Heaven" as the Catholics do. The Bible says Mary is 'blessed among women', not above women. Catholics also believe Mary can be an intercessor for prayers, but the Bible gives no indication of this either, and believing she can would give her the same divine powers as Christ when Christ is the only high priest of the new covenant and therefore is, as stated in the Bible, the only intercessor.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,697
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 14, 2019 2:36:26 GMT
We protestants don't see Mary as the divine anything. She was a good woman whom God chose for a special purpose. This "divine feminine" business is found nowhere in scripture and to us would be idolatry. The concept of divine feminine reflects across all religions, whether inside scriptures or outside it. It observes God (male) manifested through creation as an image (female) and effectively joining together. This is observed in elements of the Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, Egyptian Hermeticism (which may have set the foundations for Taoism and Judaism, but this is very ambiguous) and very very loosely in Buddhism. Mary represents within Chrisianity, the apex of womanhood and mankind, where God joining to Mary through Jesus Christ, represents a synthesis of the Male aspects of God (creator)to the Female aspects (creation). To mock Mary is effectively to mock all that is good in mankind. Even muslims share a loose view of this mariology. Archetypes are archetypes and I understand this. But I did not mock Mary. I only said that she is not divine in any way. Only God is divine.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 14, 2019 4:04:55 GMT
The Catholics say they do it to venerate/reverence Mary, but veneration/reverence are synonyms for worship, so it would seem they are worshipping Mary. There isn't really a point in a "visualization and memory" of Mary, as the Bible never gives a physical description of Mary, so people don't know who they are actually reverencing/venerating/worshipping. If they need to be reminded of her, then they can refer to scripture and what scripture says about her. The Bible never gives her the title of "Mother of God" or "Queen of Heaven" as the Catholics do. The Bible says Mary is 'blessed among women', not above women. Catholics also believe Mary can be an intercessor for prayers, but the Bible gives no indication of this either, and believing she can would give her the same divine powers as Christ when Christ is the only high priest of the new covenant and therefore is, as stated in the Bible, the only intercessor. Scripture demand veneration and honor of mother and father...you can twist this to "worsnip" as well. Not twisting anything. The Bible never says to venerate, reverence, worship, make statues in remembrance of, pray in front of, give the name "Mother of God" or "Queen of Heaven" to, or make images of Mary or anyone else for that matter. It is really that simple. Honor means respect, but the Bible never tells us to respect statues or images of Mary either.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 14, 2019 4:23:28 GMT
Not twisting anything. The Bible never says to venerate, reverence, worship, make statues in remembrance of, pray in front of, give the name "Mother of God" or "Queen of Heaven" to, or make images of Mary or anyone else for that matter. It is really that simple. Honor means respect, but the Bible never tells us to respect statues or images of Mary either. The bible doesnt tell us to do alot of things. However it does set the premise for statues in ritual worship with the ark of the covenant, Solomon's temple, the bronze snake on moses staff, etc. The Bible never tells us to worship statues anywhere. None of these that you mentioned were worshipped. Statues were made, but were never worshipped.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 4:42:53 GMT
God says below it can't be an image made of anything in heaven, earth, or water to bow to or serve. So the video clip shows a woman which is an image of someone from earth is forbidden. It looks like people break God's law!
Deuteronomy 5:8-9 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 14, 2019 5:49:08 GMT
The Bible never tells us to worship statues anywhere. None of these that you mentioned were worshipped. Statues were made, but were never worshipped. And neither are alot of statues made today. The formation of statues does not necessitate a form of idol worship, it is inherently neutral. Again, I never made the claim that the formation of a statue necessitates a form of idol worship.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 5:52:17 GMT
God says below it can't be an image made of anything in heaven, earth, or water to bow to or serve. So the video clip shows a woman which is an image of someone from earth is forbidden. It looks like people break God's law! Deuteronomy 5:8-9 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me Then you cannot take selfies either. The laws were given, in the same manner the laws for divorce were given, due to the weak nature of the hearts of men. I don't bow down to selfies or worship them! Just like when Jesus paid taxes and it had the image of Ceasar on it. That's not a big deal because no one bowed down to that image or served him. It was just used as money or an object of no higher power. Same with a selfie. Now if someone made a shrine of their pics or others then yeah idolatry!
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2019 6:20:33 GMT
I don't bow down to selfies or worship them! Just like when Jesus paid taxes and it had the image of Ceasar on it. That's not a big deal because no one bowed down to that image or served him. It was just used as money or an object of no higher power. Same with a selfie. Now if someone made a shrine of their pics or others then yeah idolatry! I didn't mean you as in Elizabeth. I mean "you" as a general course of action. Take for example the question "what do you do when...?". "You" references a means of action relative to a group. The action results in a group. And yes, selfies are a form of idolotry. Prostration is a metaphorical act of placing oneself as a subject to something. Yes, selfies can be a form of idolatry if someone's like in love with themselves and makes a shrine or something. Basically others can tell if they value themselves very highly. (example, one says in order to enter their house or property you must kiss the giant picture of them to be allowed in and maybe bow or offer gifts or something). Otherswise loving people as yourself is not idolatry but a commandment. Loving something more than God or giving something a special place of dedication is idolatry. But loving people as yourself is the law. And loving God more than anything is the law too.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 14, 2019 6:23:08 GMT
Again, I never made the claim that the formation of a statue necessitates a form of idol worship. Good, then the pastor smashing a statue proves nothing. You're not getting the message of the video which is, as I already stated, that he is demonstrating that the statue has no powers hence if it is treated as an idol it does nothing for you and is in violation of God's law according to scripture. This seems to WHOOSH past you. Seriously though, your circular arguments are getting old.
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