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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 10:46:13 GMT
Perhaps we are able to identify trees, tables, clouds, shadows, men, women, children, but what about a spirit. How to identify it?
Some phenomena are able to be identified via direct feeling as touching a warm thing, when the warm is needed to be checked or to feel the water pouring a hand into a pool, etc. Some phenomena are able to identify via signs as some features a doctor can be monitoring via diagnosis of his patient.
What about spirits? Are they able to be felt directly or only with some signs? If via signs, then which signs? We may confuse things by feelings as thinking that an apple is tasty of how it smells, while by chewing it we can register its bad taste.
The spirit has to be theoretically defined firtsly, so there's a question what definition it has.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Sept 8, 2022 15:27:31 GMT
I don't think that spirits can be detected unless they want to. I think that by nature they are probably wholly immaterial to us in every sense of the word and only appear to our senses when they want to. I think that this is what a spirit is, a supernatural, completely immaterial to us, being that can interact with and act upon our world at their leisure. Many can even take on the form of a human. It is said that many of us have entertained angels unaware. There was one incident where I dealt with a person with whom I had the strangest feeling was an angel in disguise testing me.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Sept 8, 2022 17:36:41 GMT
I don't think that spirits can be detected unless they want to. I think that by nature they are probably wholly immaterial to us in every sense of the word and only appear to our senses when they want to. I think that this is what a spirit is, a supernatural, completely immaterial to us, being that can interact with and act upon our world at their leisure. Many can even take on the form of a human. It is said that many of us have entertained angels unaware. There was one incident where I dealt with a person with whom I had the strangest feeling was an angel in disguise testing me. It's an interesting side to not: the spirits become viewable by their own will, or they appear only when it's allowed for them to? Well, I do not refuse for angels to be seen by us, or even be among the people. All I know for certain is that I am a nervous often, I'm not very calm person, so even if a true angel visited me, I couldn't be 100% sure. I remember I was passing some exams in a seminary, when one student became telling me about one person (I never met) that that person got serious problems with his head, because he said he saw angels. I know that quite similar symptoms can be monitored when a person is suffering by schizophrenia, however I don't trust that another psychological stuff. Never trusted. When that student told me that (I did not realize why for), I felt pity about that guy. He might be a good one person, but the others could make him believe that he was a loony. I guess people need in a positive attention, especially when they are like that guy. I think God works in mysterious ways.
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Post by MAYA-EL on Sept 8, 2022 19:33:32 GMT
It doesn't have to be defined firstly Just like the first time man came upon an alligator he didn't have to define it in order to know he just phucked up by taking a shortcut home through the creek
Likewise spirit doesn't have to be solidified/ defined in order for people to know when they feel one and to go so far as to distinguish one spirit from another
This is something you either can or can't do and I'm not sure it can be taught to someone that can't?
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Sept 21, 2022 16:09:53 GMT
It doesn't have to be defined firstly Just like the first time man came upon an alligator he didn't have to define it in order to know he just phucked up by taking a shortcut home through the creek Likewise spirit doesn't have to be solidified/ defined in order for people to know when they feel one and to go so far as to distinguish one spirit from another This is something you either can or can't do and I'm not sure it can be taught to someone that can't? I think that definitions are mostly useless if there are no either similar objects, or there are no need in systemathizing it. Let's say we're going to inventary the items been found (maybe we're archeologists or something), and we put different objects into different categories as vases to the art, shovels to the tools, etc. We can change the principles putting vases into ceramics and shovels into wood-iron composition, but in any case we have to put the spirits somewhere... Oh, I know what example we may use - the one in Edgar Allan Poe style: if being a butler (house steward, etc) we want to catalogy a mansion's inventory, and that mansion is inhabited by the ghosts, so to which category we have to put them? I think that definitions may not help us, but in many reasons it has its purposes.
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Post by jonbain on Oct 4, 2022 12:06:41 GMT
I
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 4, 2022 12:57:24 GMT
Perhaps, it's the shortest, yet a meaningfulness answer in the forum. So, if "I" vanishes, the spirit vanishes, is that right? What about those persons in coma or when they are unconscious? Is the spirit presented in them at the time? There's another question appears (asked mostly by the critical realists) what is the difference between "I", "me", and "he/she"? "I am afraid", while "it scares me". Does "I"="me"?
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Post by jonbain on Oct 11, 2022 9:10:08 GMT
Perhaps, it's the shortest, yet a meaningfulness answer in the forum. So, if "I" vanishes, the spirit vanishes, is that right? What about those persons in coma or when they are unconscious? Is the spirit presented in them at the time? There's another question appears (asked mostly by the critical realists) what is the difference between "I", "me", and "he/she"? "I am afraid", while "it scares me". Does "I"="me"? You watch a sleeping person. They seem to lack self-awareness.
When you are sleeping you have vivid dreams.
Why should a coma be any different?
.....
I and me:
In Ras Tafari culture, the term 'me' is said to be egocentric, but the term "I" is said to represent a conscious spirit.
The term 'we' is also replace by "I and I", in order to emphasize the conscious will of each individual.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 11, 2022 14:55:50 GMT
Perhaps, it's the shortest, yet a meaningfulness answer in the forum. So, if "I" vanishes, the spirit vanishes, is that right? What about those persons in coma or when they are unconscious? Is the spirit presented in them at the time? There's another question appears (asked mostly by the critical realists) what is the difference between "I", "me", and "he/she"? "I am afraid", while "it scares me". Does "I"="me"? You watch a sleeping person. They seem to lack self-awareness.
When you are sleeping you have vivid dreams.
Why should a coma be any different?
.....
I and me:
In Ras Tafari culture, the term 'me' is said to be egocentric, but the term "I" is said to represent a conscious spirit.
The term 'we' is also replace by "I and I", in order to emphasize the conscious will of each individual.
As for me 'me' sounds quite heavy, just like 'me' is an object, a rock, or a gathering of molecules. 'Me' ruins 'I'. However, when a person is sleeping it might happen that the other part of him - the one that was the part of his "we" - is awake, and does the cruely, immoral things - exactly as Dr. Hyde did in that famous book. Such a situation might happen.
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Post by MAYA-EL on Nov 5, 2022 5:09:09 GMT
Semantics can so easily sweep a person off into a land of concepts and make them forget what they actually are because they are to busy trying to hold all of the concepts that other people have and are making
Long ago the people in the middle east made the concept of the soul and at first it simply ment nephesh which means living being, life, creature, mind, desires, heart, appetite, persons
As one old rabi told me years ago it means the throat collarbone area of the human being and it was all 1 thing you were your soul
Later on people started saying that a soul is something you have that can be taken from you
Then Christianity later on developed the belief that not only is it something that you have but it will be sent to hell if your bad
And now we have added yet another thing to the being called man and that is a spirit and all the ways it differs from the body and soul
And as time goes on I'm sure more things will be added to man to make things even more complicated
So I don't risk the possibility of their being repercussions for believing in something that fundamentally isn't real however that might come about I'm not sure but what I do know is that I'm Me and Me has a body, and Me is more then a body, and the real Me that is more then just the body I try not to attach any concepts or names to it so that I don't end up limiting myself through defining, instead I know that I exist beyond the body and beyond definition or lable.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Nov 9, 2022 6:13:00 GMT
Semantics can so easily sweep a person off into a land of concepts and make them forget what they actually are because they are to busy trying to hold all of the concepts that other people have and are making Long ago the people in the middle east made the concept of the soul and at first it simply ment nephesh which means living being, life, creature, mind, desires, heart, appetite, persons As one old rabi told me years ago it means the throat collarbone area of the human being and it was all 1 thing you were your soul Later on people started saying that a soul is something you have that can be taken from you Then Christianity later on developed the belief that not only is it something that you have but it will be sent to hell if your bad And now we have added yet another thing to the being called man and that is a spirit and all the ways it differs from the body and soul And as time goes on I'm sure more things will be added to man to make things even more complicated So I don't risk the possibility of their being repercussions for believing in something that fundamentally isn't real however that might come about I'm not sure but what I do know is that I'm Me and Me has a body, and Me is more then a body, and the real Me that is more then just the body I try not to attach any concepts or names to it so that I don't end up limiting myself through defining, instead I know that I exist beyond the body and beyond definition or lable. Do you think people in the past did really invent the concept of soul? In my opinion usually things go like in this: one said another one else about something the one didn't even realize, and so did the another one, and then the third one caught this concept (not realizing about it either), and that endless circulating of rumoring went on... I am rather follower of this version, because to create such a concept is soul is either too simple, or too complex. If it it a simple thing, then, let's say one barbarian told another one that that person was still alive after one's death, and that another barbarian thought that if that person was still alive after one's own death, then something must stay alive... and he called that 'something' a soul. Then the first barbarian agreed about the term or maybe corrected his collegue, and thing went like that. If it was a complex concept, then it seems like someone of philosophers invented it. Like Plato. The last one liked to invent different gibberish concepts and stories. So, he can easily put some rare ancient god of something instead of that something that is alive after one's death, and to use it. Besides there's another story I like not less. Let's say in different cities in Babylon or somewhere in Egypt (actually, I don't know where, because I don't know too much about the ancient times) some priests or the chiefs wanted to take more money (or cows, bulls, goats, etc - I am not familiar of what the currency was being used those times either), and they want not to take it for something daily, but just from the pure air. Actually, the chiefs and priests did nothing indeed, except for watching the people and to utter orders, or some prayers. So, they wanted to collect more wealthy, and for that they decided to deceive foolish ancient hillbillies saying them that after someone dies it lefts something also. And they assured those ones to pay them, because the chiefs or the priests could pray for the souls of those persons. And so on. I think this last one version is the most true among the others. It's pragmatic, and it explains why some concepts are alive - these concepts are proved to be circulating, because they are being used in economic life of people. That is why today I hear almost nothing about soul, except for some idiomatic phrases where this concept is used for different kinds of expressions. Or in comics - sometimes the artists draw the light behind persons to emphasize the dramatic moment. Or in some animation movies, and so on.
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Post by MAYA-EL on Feb 13, 2023 9:48:47 GMT
Semantics can so easily sweep a person off into a land of concepts and make them forget what they actually are because they are to busy trying to hold all of the concepts that other people have and are making Long ago the people in the middle east made the concept of the soul and at first it simply ment nephesh which means living being, life, creature, mind, desires, heart, appetite, persons As one old rabi told me years ago it means the throat collarbone area of the human being and it was all 1 thing you were your soul Later on people started saying that a soul is something you have that can be taken from you Then Christianity later on developed the belief that not only is it something that you have but it will be sent to hell if your bad And now we have added yet another thing to the being called man and that is a spirit and all the ways it differs from the body and soul And as time goes on I'm sure more things will be added to man to make things even more complicated So I don't risk the possibility of their being repercussions for believing in something that fundamentally isn't real however that might come about I'm not sure but what I do know is that I'm Me and Me has a body, and Me is more then a body, and the real Me that is more then just the body I try not to attach any concepts or names to it so that I don't end up limiting myself through defining, instead I know that I exist beyond the body and beyond definition or lable. Do you think people in the past did really invent the concept of soul? In my opinion usually things go like in this: one said another one else about something the one didn't even realize, and so did the another one, and then the third one caught this concept (not realizing about it either), and that endless circulating of rumoring went on... I am rather follower of this version, because to create such a concept is soul is either too simple, or too complex. If it it a simple thing, then, let's say one barbarian told another one that that person was still alive after one's death, and that another barbarian thought that if that person was still alive after one's own death, then something must stay alive... and he called that 'something' a soul. Then the first barbarian agreed about the term or maybe corrected his collegue, and thing went like that. If it was a complex concept, then it seems like someone of philosophers invented it. Like Plato. The last one liked to invent different gibberish concepts and stories. So, he can easily put some rare ancient god of something instead of that something that is alive after one's death, and to use it. Besides there's another story I like not less. Let's say in different cities in Babylon or somewhere in Egypt (actually, I don't know where, because I don't know too much about the ancient times) some priests or the chiefs wanted to take more money (or cows, bulls, goats, etc - I am not familiar of what the currency was being used those times either), and they want not to take it for something daily, but just from the pure air. Actually, the chiefs and priests did nothing indeed, except for watching the people and to utter orders, or some prayers. So, they wanted to collect more wealthy, and for that they decided to deceive foolish ancient hillbillies saying them that after someone dies it lefts something also. And they assured those ones to pay them, because the chiefs or the priests could pray for the souls of those persons. And so on. I think this last one version is the most true among the others. It's pragmatic, and it explains why some concepts are alive - these concepts are proved to be circulating, because they are being used in economic life of people. That is why today I hear almost nothing about soul, except for some idiomatic phrases where this concept is used for different kinds of expressions. Or in comics - sometimes the artists draw the light behind persons to emphasize the dramatic moment. Or in some animation movies, and so on. Well yes your examples are what I'm calling "create" I think it started simple and over time it has become what it is today The oldest language we have found so far that first mentions the Soule is in ancient Hebrew and the word was nefish which as I've been told by a rabi friend of mine it means the neck slash throat region right at the collarbone area and referred to a living being the essence of a living person but it included their body it was the whole package And as time went on it has changed and each culture has made their own style
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 13, 2023 10:26:36 GMT
Do you think people in the past did really invent the concept of soul? In my opinion usually things go like in this: one said another one else about something the one didn't even realize, and so did the another one, and then the third one caught this concept (not realizing about it either), and that endless circulating of rumoring went on... I am rather follower of this version, because to create such a concept is soul is either too simple, or too complex. If it it a simple thing, then, let's say one barbarian told another one that that person was still alive after one's death, and that another barbarian thought that if that person was still alive after one's own death, then something must stay alive... and he called that 'something' a soul. Then the first barbarian agreed about the term or maybe corrected his collegue, and thing went like that. If it was a complex concept, then it seems like someone of philosophers invented it. Like Plato. The last one liked to invent different gibberish concepts and stories. So, he can easily put some rare ancient god of something instead of that something that is alive after one's death, and to use it. Besides there's another story I like not less. Let's say in different cities in Babylon or somewhere in Egypt (actually, I don't know where, because I don't know too much about the ancient times) some priests or the chiefs wanted to take more money (or cows, bulls, goats, etc - I am not familiar of what the currency was being used those times either), and they want not to take it for something daily, but just from the pure air. Actually, the chiefs and priests did nothing indeed, except for watching the people and to utter orders, or some prayers. So, they wanted to collect more wealthy, and for that they decided to deceive foolish ancient hillbillies saying them that after someone dies it lefts something also. And they assured those ones to pay them, because the chiefs or the priests could pray for the souls of those persons. And so on. I think this last one version is the most true among the others. It's pragmatic, and it explains why some concepts are alive - these concepts are proved to be circulating, because they are being used in economic life of people. That is why today I hear almost nothing about soul, except for some idiomatic phrases where this concept is used for different kinds of expressions. Or in comics - sometimes the artists draw the light behind persons to emphasize the dramatic moment. Or in some animation movies, and so on. Well yes your examples are what I'm calling "create" I think it started simple and over time it has become what it is today The oldest language we have found so far that first mentions the Soule is in ancient Hebrew and the word was nefish which as I've been told by a rabi friend of mine it means the neck slash throat region right at the collarbone area and referred to a living being the essence of a living person but it included their body it was the whole package And as time went on it has changed and each culture has made their own style Oh, this is truly nice definition. Impossible to disagree. I remember I read about the concepta of the heaven & hell that they were elaborated circa two centuries before the 0000 year. Seems the concept of the soul had been remade then too.
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