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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 14, 2021 21:32:38 GMT
Heinrich Behmann's remarks about analytic/synthetic math formulas were interesting to note among them one curious phrase (I'll be translating, so hold up =) ): If we want to draw a fat line between "the self-evident" and "the thoughtful" judgements, then we have to put those judgments, which are logical for any science, - except for the logic itself (= have no content or have the empty content). - to the first group [to the analytic statements]. Logically self-evident are: 1. the laws of logic, and 2. application of the logic laws to some outer logic deities. To the first category we have "If X is A, and all A is B, then X is B"; to the second one: "If Socrates is a man, and all men are mortal, then Socrates is mortal"; and in a minor sense the judgments like this "If the Moon is vertebrate, and all the vertebrates have wings, then the Moon has wings" [The Source]. And what is bothering me: does logic have any practical laws? I mean - does logic suppose its own practical usage? Because it sounds weird for a logic to not have any practical implications. It's like - logic is about anything beyond the speculative, and as such - how can it dare to solve anything beyond it? Another one thing is some laws in logic that can be maintained as the ones that has some practical issues, like these two: ∀xPx⇒Py Py⇒∃xPx
These both laws can tell us about some indefinite numbers of cases, or a set of case, while the form as Py is the self-evident form of some practical issues. Even if to escape some unnecessary connotations we might use instead: ∀xPx⇒Pa Pa⇒∃xPx
while there's no such super necessity to not understand Py as just another way of saying Pa, Pb, Pc... etc.
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antor
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Post by antor on May 15, 2021 13:36:27 GMT
To me logic is like mathematics. And logic does not make any prediction about it's own use. Logic is just logic. But to be EXPRESSED it needs some language/formalism of course. There is no silent logic.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 13:58:54 GMT
To me logic is like mathematics. And logic does not make any prediction about it's own use. Logic is just logic. But to be EXPRESSED it needs some language/formalism of course. There is no silent logic. Why this question seemed to be important for me? - I wanted to understand were there any criteria (within or without logic; mostly about 'within the logic') that can testify about logic might be used somewhere, but not for its own purposes. Or, in other words, what makes logic to be use practically? Of course, the same is fair to the math, and geometry, and any other theoretical subjects. And anyway, are there any such criteria?
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Triangle
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Post by Triangle on May 15, 2021 14:06:27 GMT
Heinrich Behmann's remarks about analytic/synthetic math formulas were interesting to note among them one curious phrase (I'll be translating, so hold up =) ): If we want to draw a fat line between "the self-evident" and "the thoughtful" judgements, then we have to put those judgments, which are logical for any science, - except for the logic itself (= have no content or have the empty content). - to the first group [to the analytic statements]. Logically self-evident are: 1. the laws of logic, and 2. application of the logic laws to some outer logic deities. To the first category we have "If X is A, and all A is B, then X is B"; to the second one: "If Socrates is a man, and all men are mortal, then Socrates is mortal"; and in a minor sense the judgments like this "If the Moon is vertebrate, and all the vertebrates have wings, then the Moon has wings" [The Source]. And what is bothering me: does logic have any practical laws? I mean - does logic suppose its own practical usage? Because it sounds weird for a logic to not have any practical implications. It's like - logic is about anything beyond the speculative, and as such - how can it dare to solve anything beyond it? Another one thing is some laws in logic that can be maintained as the ones that has some practical issues, like these two: ∀xPx⇒Py Py⇒∃xPx
These both laws can tell us about some indefinite numbers of cases, or a set of case, while the form as Py is the self-evident form of some practical issues. Even if to escape some unnecessary connotations we might use instead: ∀xPx⇒Pa Pa⇒∃xPx
while there's no such super necessity to not understand Py as just another way of saying Pa, Pb, Pc... etc. Just a curiosity, there is any kind of logical methodology?
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antor
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Post by antor on May 15, 2021 14:09:57 GMT
I can speak for math maybe. There are no criteria for that new math discovery must be applicable to anything. But there are examples where some new math looks like something useless and 50 years later it actually gets used for something. So it would be impossible to have some criteria because the practical use might come in the future.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 14:52:29 GMT
Heinrich Behmann's remarks about analytic/synthetic math formulas were interesting to note among them one curious phrase (I'll be translating, so hold up =) ): If we want to draw a fat line between "the self-evident" and "the thoughtful" judgements, then we have to put those judgments, which are logical for any science, - except for the logic itself (= have no content or have the empty content). - to the first group [to the analytic statements]. Logically self-evident are: 1. the laws of logic, and 2. application of the logic laws to some outer logic deities. To the first category we have "If X is A, and all A is B, then X is B"; to the second one: "If Socrates is a man, and all men are mortal, then Socrates is mortal"; and in a minor sense the judgments like this "If the Moon is vertebrate, and all the vertebrates have wings, then the Moon has wings" [The Source]. And what is bothering me: does logic have any practical laws? I mean - does logic suppose its own practical usage? Because it sounds weird for a logic to not have any practical implications. It's like - logic is about anything beyond the speculative, and as such - how can it dare to solve anything beyond it? Another one thing is some laws in logic that can be maintained as the ones that has some practical issues, like these two: ∀xPx⇒Py Py⇒∃xPx
These both laws can tell us about some indefinite numbers of cases, or a set of case, while the form as Py is the self-evident form of some practical issues. Even if to escape some unnecessary connotations we might use instead: ∀xPx⇒Pa Pa⇒∃xPx
while there's no such super necessity to not understand Py as just another way of saying Pa, Pb, Pc... etc. Just a curiosity, there is any kind of logical methodology? I guess this question is tied up with the next question: does logic imply any methodological applications? But in a daily, common, weekly life we can deal with it. Yes.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 14:55:10 GMT
I can speak for math maybe. There are no criteria for that new math discovery must be applicable to anything. But there are examples where some new math looks like something useless and 50 years later it actually gets used for something. So it would be impossible to have some criteria because the practical use might come in the future. In other words, the only criterion is its application: we apply it; it seems to be fitted; ok, it's ok. It works. And, therefore, the criterion is outside the logic, or beyond it.
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Triangle
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Post by Triangle on May 15, 2021 14:55:58 GMT
Just a curiosity, there is any kind of logical methodology? I guess this question is tied up with the next question: does logic imply any methodological applications? But in a daily, common, weekly life we can deal with it. Yes. There is method in logic? Just a curiosity of mine.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 15:09:30 GMT
I guess this question is tied up with the next question: does logic imply any methodological applications? But in a daily, common, weekly life we can deal with it. Yes. There is method in logic? Just a curiosity of mine. A good question. It makes me hold the horses. I guess that within the logic such variation of concepts are difficult to maintain. I mean - it was too much to demand logic to reveal its own limits or something. Probably, it may lead to the conclusion that to view logic by its own (inwardly its own presumable limits) isn't a good move. Maybe - could be - that we can guess something to be the method in logic, but... indeed, how to be sure about that?..
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Triangle
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Post by Triangle on May 15, 2021 15:11:46 GMT
So, there is no method. And if logic have no method, what kind of work the logician do?
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 15:31:29 GMT
So, there is no method. And if logic have no method, what kind of work the logician do? No, not like that I guess we need to discuss the work of logicians. A logician could be helpful to present some system. For instance, Lotfi Zadeh invented the fuzzy logic that started being used more widely after 20-25 years after. Some of Japan concerns implied it in its creations, and so on. The more prominent example is George Boole. For mathematician Gottlob Frege, Peano, and Russell (plus many many others) did great job. For the cybernetics there were also many logicians, like Tarski, Church, or Kleene. And also the application of their results had been used even for the physicists (Carnap's, Reichenbach's and so on logicians). Plus, the style of thinking and discussion that the logicins presented became one of the most prominent in Analytic Philosophy. So, I can't say that if we'd asked: "What logicians did (or presented to the world; or brought to the world)?", because it would be the same as to ask about it many literature paperwriters, and the other "artists". And also, there are millions of philosophers, who, I guess, brought much more less, than a most quarky logician.
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Triangle
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Post by Triangle on May 15, 2021 15:35:01 GMT
But a system can be showed by no methodological aproach?
What is the hole of the logician, if there is no methodology in logic? I will try answer, is to work on the sense of the words. Turn the words more expressive, and a language more clear. So there is a connection between logic and linguistics, do you agree?
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 15:51:29 GMT
But a system can be showed by no methodological aproach? What is the hole of the logician, if there is no methodology in logic? I will try answer, is to work on the sense of the words. Turn the words more expressive, and a language more clear. So there is a connection between logic and linguistics, do you agree? Do artists have methodology? Is the art based on some methodology? What about mathematician? In a particular, an extra case, there could be no methodology. When a dentists is working to repair teeth of his client, mostly he's foolowing the instructions he's been practicing in the trainings, but plus he uses some methodology. Speaking of it - that "methodology" (no matter which subject we discuss) - can be gotten from many ways as practice examples, some theoretical issues, and so on. Even new textbooks can offer some new methods to use. Some of disciplines like the sociology does use the other's results (from the different ones sciences), because this science is interdiscipline. Thinking - the subject must have methodology, and if it doesn't - it is the empty deity - is a wrong view. Some of works of Newton or Galileo started to be used not right after their publication. There had to be some other issues passed, like discovering new planets, inventing new tools, and so on.
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Triangle
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Post by Triangle on May 15, 2021 15:56:07 GMT
Art is a search for the individuality of a certan idea, person or thing. It can search singularities for study.
Logic was called the art of reasoning in the past. So, the search of individuality in words are the same.
To be methodic is a great thing to have, do you agree? We can attain certain things much more easy, and with less sacrifices.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on May 15, 2021 16:03:35 GMT
Art is a search for the individuality of a certan idea, person or thing. It can search singularities for study. Logic was called the art of reasoning in the past. So, the search of individuality in words are the same. To be methodic is a great thing to have, do you agree? We can attain certain things much more easy, and with less sacrifices. Yes, I do agree with you about the role of the methodology, because it seems to be the same with: "to be equipped in time is about to be a winner"but for me it is obvious that that cannot be - a logician plays the role only for social current circumstances. No, a logician can be as a musician or an architect - he can make his project in hope one day they will be pleased and used. In a daily life I can't see much effect of logicians, except for their cooperation with the other disciplines like the math, or philosophy.
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