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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 14, 2021 16:38:05 GMT
Can ideas /if it exists somehow/ exist beyond a language?
This question can be interpreted as:
a) do animals /or non-human species/ have ideas? b) do non-articulated ideas or non-formed ideas are possible to exist?
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Post by MAYA-EL on Apr 15, 2021 4:12:04 GMT
I think they can and to. In fact i have them from time to time, unfortunately i haven't figured out how to verbally articulate them ironically
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 15, 2021 6:31:16 GMT
I think they can and to. In fact i have them from time to time, unfortunately i haven't figured out how to verbally articulate them ironically Hmm... it's really interesting. Could you describe them? Are they closer to visions or something symbolic? I believe you that such things exist, and I guess they happen in our heads, yet I'm not sure of their origins. I guess a person who's seen them at least once is a lucky one. What about children and animals? Would you agree that they are able to have them?
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Post by MAYA-EL on Apr 15, 2021 18:55:52 GMT
I think that kids and animals do have them and more so then adults .
See the human being (as far as i have been able to observe ) Is a extremely adaptable being but in doing so we tend to atrophy in the areas we don't utilize and this is especially important when considering the recently new invention of ours called language because language has domesticated us to such a point where we are completely clueless as to certain things in of life simply because our abilities to utilize those Avenues are so atrophied that they seem impossible and/or we are completely unaware of them.
We force kids to talk as soon as possible then we teach them how to read and write and used language as the only source of communication (or at least in Western Society we do) and so we never develop any other Avenue of communication with them from birth so imagine a 35 year-old man that was never allowed to walk it would be pretty bad especially somebody asked him to play a football game it would be impossible
But that's only because of the lack of exercise and likewise same goes for the mind, and understanding, and for everything else in life
So occasionally people will stumble across a lost Talent and not know what to think of it because no one else around them has either stumbled upon it to or knows how to use it or even knows what it is and unfortunately it may remain a mystery for some people their entire life all others might spend their entire life trying to figure out what it is.
As far as describing it that's why I'm having a hard time doing because to describe it I have to chop it down into something lesser in order to make it small enough to add a value to it and that value being a word so it's difficult to do because it's not really choppable if that makes any sense? I guess you could say it's almost like a language of experience and understanding that doesn't use words
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 16, 2021 15:17:30 GMT
I think that kids and animals do have them and more so then adults . See the human being (as far as i have been able to observe ) Is a extremely adaptable being but in doing so we tend to atrophy in the areas we don't utilize and this is especially important when considering the recently new invention of ours called language because language has domesticated us to such a point where we are completely clueless as to certain things in of life simply because our abilities to utilize those Avenues are so atrophied that they seem impossible and/or we are completely unaware of them. We force kids to talk as soon as possible then we teach them how to read and write and used language as the only source of communication (or at least in Western Society we do) and so we never develop any other Avenue of communication with them from birth so imagine a 35 year-old man that was never allowed to walk it would be pretty bad especially somebody asked him to play a football game it would be impossible But that's only because of the lack of exercise and likewise same goes for the mind, and understanding, and for everything else in life So occasionally people will stumble across a lost Talent and not know what to think of it because no one else around them has either stumbled upon it to or knows how to use it or even knows what it is and unfortunately it may remain a mystery for some people their entire life all others might spend their entire life trying to figure out what it is. As far as describing it that's why I'm having a hard time doing because to describe it I have to chop it down into something lesser in order to make it small enough to add a value to it and that value being a word so it's difficult to do because it's not really choppable if that makes any sense? I guess you could say it's almost like a language of experience and understanding that doesn't use words I see. Yeah, your examples and arguments are truly that. Unfortunately, many of us should left alone and singles. When I was a child most of the time I was alone, and there were not many people /the same ages, the elders, or the juniors/ who contacted me or played with me. Yeah, there were ones, but most of the time they did it, because they tend to their own purposes. And I'm not talking about the grown-ups which dealt with their mature problems; I'm talking about the same ages mostly. And that's why I almost never was at any communities, because my views were almost non-comprehensive in many communities or groups I knew. If you've got your opinion or your views, many adepts or the participants won't accept you, because "you're the one, and not like the majority". And in many times I encountered situations where having a certain sign means to belong to a certain group... I guess it was the overcrazed principle that might be encountered now too. If you're fat - you're a fasto, if you're tall - you're a sky-scrapper, if you're quiet - you're an idiot, if you read alot - you're menace, if you're small - you're a namby-pamby, and et cetera. Why couldn't those people realize that there were many many sides and corners of a personality? Surely, I think there must be a limit of them, but having some 'positive gaps' means that a person can evolve, can master himself. So, it happened that I was messing round with "jerks" or "the rejected". That's how I met punks, metalheads, rockers, dj's, artists, graffitists, and many different outcasts. Surely, they were teenagers mostly. But anyway, it was safer to mess with them, then with those majors or "golden spoon swallowers". Always hated those moneybag assholes; their greed was the first source for all the chaos, and, in particular, those label names and whatnot.
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Post by karl on Apr 16, 2021 15:25:47 GMT
Can ideas /if it exists somehow/ exist beyond a language? This question can be interpreted as: a) do animals /or non-human species/ have ideas? b) do non-articulated ideas or non-formed ideas are possible to exist?
Yes. It's when someone has understood a concept there is no word for, that a new word is invented. Ideas are found through introspection, and introspection premises consciousness.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 16, 2021 15:49:22 GMT
Can ideas /if it exists somehow/ exist beyond a language? This question can be interpreted as: a) do animals /or non-human species/ have ideas? b) do non-articulated ideas or non-formed ideas are possible to exist?
Yes. It's when someone has understood a concept there is no word for, that a new word is invented. Ideas are found through introspection, and introspection premises consciousness.
(By the way, thank you for likes!) Ok, but what are these parts and by what mechanisms they are being combined together? Isn't that process - of the constitution or the composition of those parts - consciousness itself?
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Post by jonbain on Apr 16, 2021 16:49:28 GMT
Plato!
We could say that language is a social manifestation of the pure forms. The pure forms exist without traditional language. An otter will use a rock to crack a shell to eat the flesh. That is an idea, that the young may or may not learn.
I communicate with sign language with my old cat often. The other day I asked her "Why do you keep swallowing birds with their feathers whole, and keep eating their eggs, when you know it gives you arthritis?"
She just looked me in the eye, and licked her lips at me.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 16, 2021 17:17:09 GMT
Plato! We could say that language is a social manifestation of the pure forms. The pure forms exist without traditional language. An otter will use a rock to crack a shell to eat the flesh. That is an idea, that the young may or may not learn. I communicate with sign language with my old cat often. The other day I asked her "Why do you keep swallowing birds with their feathers whole, and keep eating their eggs, when you know it gives you arthritis?" She just looked me in the eye, and licked her lips at me. Another fat thank for such an awesome example!!! Of course, we're chanting with our pets somehow! And it reminds me a series of movies - I was watching being a teenager - where a boy had a chimpanzee who could skate or playing hockey. And also many others. And what is also can be added here is that - why children mostly choose animals as the characters to play, etc? (Like in animations or fairy tales.)
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Post by jonbain on Apr 16, 2021 18:05:06 GMT
Plato! We could say that language is a social manifestation of the pure forms. The pure forms exist without traditional language. An otter will use a rock to crack a shell to eat the flesh. That is an idea, that the young may or may not learn. I communicate with sign language with my old cat often. The other day I asked her "Why do you keep swallowing birds with their feathers whole, and keep eating their eggs, when you know it gives you arthritis?" She just looked me in the eye, and licked her lips at me. Another fat thank for such an awesome example!!! Of course, we're chanting with our pets somehow! And it reminds me a series of movies - I was watching being a teenager - where a boy had a chimpanzee who could skate or playing hockey. And also many others. And what is also can be added here is that - why children mostly choose animals as the characters to play, etc? (Like in animations or fairy tales.) One of my great heroes is to blame for this lack of understanding. As much as I praise Descartes for his first 5 meditations, the 6th was so bad, i wonder if he even wrote it.
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Post by karl on Apr 16, 2021 19:00:38 GMT
Yes. It's when someone has understood a concept there is no word for, that a new word is invented. Ideas are found through introspection, and introspection premises consciousness.
(By the way, thank you for likes!) Ok, but what are these parts and by what mechanisms they are being combined together? Isn't that process - of the constitution or the composition of those parts - consciousness itself?
Consciousness is the "I" experiencing the processes in the brain whenever they may be influenced by free choice. If it was ever possible to control from the outside every physical process within the brain, then that would also eliminate consciousness itself. Consciousness is indivisible and cannot be broken down into smaller parts. But while it experiences physical processes, it also has access to the inner conceptualized world, and is able to use universal concepts to understand what it experiences.
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Post by MAYA-EL on Apr 17, 2021 0:55:04 GMT
I think the concept of Consciousness has been masturbated too far too much and for far too long by philosophers and I think that people get too caught up in it because it is just a concept and a vague one at that and it is trying to describe a complex being and that usually never works out
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Apr 20, 2021 17:54:49 GMT
Can ideas /if it exists somehow/ exist beyond a language? This question can be interpreted as: a) do animals /or non-human species/ have ideas? b) do non-articulated ideas or non-formed ideas are possible to exist? 1. Ideas exist through images. 2. Images are symbols. 3. Symbols are language. 4. Ideas are language. A) Animals have ideas. B) Ideas are articulated without verbal language because they exist as symbols.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Apr 20, 2021 17:56:04 GMT
Plato! We could say that language is a social manifestation of the pure forms. The pure forms exist without traditional language. An otter will use a rock to crack a shell to eat the flesh. That is an idea, that the young may or may not learn. I communicate with sign language with my old cat often. The other day I asked her "Why do you keep swallowing birds with their feathers whole, and keep eating their eggs, when you know it gives you arthritis?" She just looked me in the eye, and licked her lips at me. Yes.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 21, 2021 12:22:44 GMT
Another fat thank for such an awesome example!!! Of course, we're chanting with our pets somehow! And it reminds me a series of movies - I was watching being a teenager - where a boy had a chimpanzee who could skate or playing hockey. And also many others. And what is also can be added here is that - why children mostly choose animals as the characters to play, etc? (Like in animations or fairy tales.) One of my great heroes is to blame for this lack of understanding. As much as I praise Descartes for his first 5 meditations, the 6th was so bad, i wonder if he even wrote it. Perhaps he wrote it when he had already been to Sweden. As the well-known fact, Descartes wasn't an early riser, yet the princess of Sweden had another opinion Open Smile: .
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