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Post by karl on Apr 2, 2021 18:44:05 GMT
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Apr 3, 2021 4:23:26 GMT
Casanova is my enemy. Can't say I sympathize him ;-|
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Post by karl on Apr 3, 2021 9:32:36 GMT
Casanova is my enemy. Can't say I sympathize him
I see him as a shallow person with a high intelligence and many talents. And as is always the case for such people, he had delusions about his own importance, while not accomplishing anything beyond making women want to have sex with him.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Age: 30
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 3, 2021 10:17:16 GMT
Casanova is my enemy. Can't say I sympathize him
I see him as a shallow person with a high intelligence and many talents. And as is always the case for such people, he had delusions about his own importance, while not accomplishing anything beyond making women want to have sex with him.
And he undoubtedly left many children passing on his genes to the next generation likely creating many generations of whoremongers that exist to this day. I think the man is disgusting but making women want to have sex with him is an accomplishment in that it fulfilled his biological imperative, so there's that.
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Post by karl on Apr 3, 2021 10:43:32 GMT
I see him as a shallow person with a high intelligence and many talents. And as is always the case for such people, he had delusions about his own importance, while not accomplishing anything beyond making women want to have sex with him.
And he undoubtedly left many children passing on his genes to the next generation likely creating many generations of whoremongers that exist to this day. I think the man is disgusting but making women want to have sex with him is an accomplishment in that it fulfilled his biological imperative, so there's that.
Well, I partly agree, although I think you place more emphasis on genes than I do. People have free will, and the ways by which we are biologically inclines aren't all pointing in the same direction. There are firefighters who share personality traits with those who have antisocial personality disorder, but instead of becoming criminals, they use their fearlessness to save lives.
I suspect that Norwegian genes aren't very different from how they were in the 16th century, and back then you could be killed with an axe if you accidentally spilled beer on someone. The murder rate in one Norwegian city was 200 times the current national average. Norwegian society is now very peaceful, but I think this is neither because Norwegians have peaceful genes, nor that culture oppresses their intrinsic violent nature, but rather that culture allows an alternative to solving problems with violence. And when one is presented with different possible paths, one has free will to choose the right one.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 3, 2021 11:08:50 GMT
And he undoubtedly left many children passing on his genes to the next generation likely creating many generations of whoremongers that exist to this day. I think the man is disgusting but making women want to have sex with him is an accomplishment in that it fulfilled his biological imperative, so there's that.
Well, I partly agree, although I think you place more emphasis on genes than I do. People have free will, and the ways by which we are biologically inclines aren't all pointing in the same direction. There are firefighters who share personality traits with those who have antisocial personality disorder, but instead of becoming criminals, they use their fearlessness to save lives.
I suspect that Norwegian genes aren't very different from how they were in the 16th century, and back then you could be killed with an axe if you accidentally spilled beer on someone. The murder rate in one Norwegian city was 200 times the current national average. Norwegian society is now very peaceful, but I think this is neither because Norwegians have peaceful genes, nor that culture oppresses their intrinsic violent nature, but rather that culture allows an alternative to solving problems with violence. And when one is presented with different possible paths, one has free will to choose the right one.
Oh yes, I agree with you. I think that people have programming and are inclined or bent in a certain direction, but as a Christian I believe in free will and the ability to make choices. Being predisposed to certain behaviors doesn't mean you have to give in to those behaviors, just that you are heavily inclined in that direction, but my point was that Casanova has a bunch of children running around right now and they'll have children as well so at a base biological level he accomplished a lot. As for violent behaviors and Norwegians, I've read somewhere that European violence has pacified over time do to some kind of genetic breeding trend (I think it was Yeoman farmers outbreeding everyone else in Northwestern Europe but I don't know) but I'm too lazy to look it up. But yeah violence is partially genetic. I live in the South and the South was settled by violent Scots Irish and English Cavaliers and so we're more genetically bent towards violence ourselves. It's why Southerners kill each other in larger numbers than Northerners do and support violent political policies like the death penalty, the second amendment, corporal punishment and the like as well as being very overrepresented in the military and in support of American wars like Iraq. It's been proven in experiments that when someone tries to provoke a Northerner they just laugh it off and walk away but when they do the same to a Southerner the Southerner gets hot and the experiments had to end because the provokers in the experiment routinely kept getting attacked by the White Southerner (these were white people being tested mostly from rural areas). Black Americans who are partially descended from white Southern slave owners as well as violent Bantu West Africans account for 50% of the United States' murders at only 14% of the population so they share many of our issues. Speaking for myself there's a violent side to me, in my political views, in me and my families' horrible temper's and in many other ways. I'm descended from a Lowland Southern father and a Scots Irish Appalachian mother so having these same violent predispositions isn't shocking to me. I'm able to control them because I have a lot of self control but they are there. So yeah, I think genetics has a great deal to do with the way people are but I don't think that ultimately they don't have a choice because I know they do.
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Post by karl on Apr 3, 2021 20:37:00 GMT
Clovis Merovingian I've seen that experiment. Some guy bumped into the subject, for then to throw an insult at him. In one example, the northern guy just looked at him as if he was thinking: "What's up with him?" The southern guy reacted with a very loud: "Hey!", and stood ready to take a confrontation. After the experiment, some people from the north thought this made Southern people look bad, and tried to defend them by claiming this experiment didn't really prove southerners were more aggressive. However, southerners had no issue with being portrayed this way, and saw the northern subjects as complete wimps for reacting so passively. I'm not disputing the difference in aggression level you describe between the north and the south. The question is whether it is genetic, cultural, or both. -Which is a never ending discussion- It's like when people discuss whether intelligence is nature or nurture. Researchers in that field were once asked to give a percentage, and one got answers from 0% nature and 100% nurture, to 100% nature and 0% nurture, and everything in between, with 50/50 being the average. I looked up "Yeoman". That refers to England. I'm not sure what relevance that has for Norway. Unrelated to the above, there is one thing about American culture I've struggled to understand, and I wonder how you see it. On one hand, more Americans than Europeans see themselves as Christian. And those who are Christian in Europe, are typically more secular than in the US. -At least that's my impression. The one thing I can't quite get to add up is how Amwerican culture at the same time is so focused on material wealth. One thing the bible makes abundantly clear is that one is not to worship mammon. And Jesus stated that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. But when I listen to some American preachers, like Joel Osteen in Texas, they speak openly about getting rich as some kind of natural goal in life. Joel Osteen, for example, claims that if one prays to God, then God will help one's business to make more money. It reminds me of this song by Janis Joplin: Is it correct that American Christianity has merged with materialism, or is this an unfair stereotype? And does it vary from state to state? Are there, for example, places in the US where Christians are openly anti-materialistic? I know about the Amish, but I don't know whether they're just the exception to confirm the rule.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
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Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 4, 2021 0:56:30 GMT
Clovis Merovingian I've seen that experiment. Some guy bumped into the subject, for then to throw an insult at him. In one example, the northern guy just looked at him as if he was thinking: "What's up with him?" The southern guy reacted with a very loud: "Hey!", and stood ready to take a confrontation. After the experiment, some people from the north thought this made Southern people look bad, and tried to defend them by claiming this experiment didn't really prove southerners were more aggressive. However, southerners had no issue with being portrayed this way, and saw the northern subjects as complete wimps for reacting so passively. I'm not disputing the difference in aggression level you describe between the north and the south. The question is whether it is genetic, cultural, or both. -Which is a never ending discussion- It's like when people discuss whether intelligence is nature or nurture. Researchers in that field were once asked to give a percentage, and one got answers from 0% nature and 100% nurture, to 100% nature and 0% nurture, and everything in between, with 50/50 being the average. I looked up "Yeoman". That refers to England. I'm not sure what relevance that has for Norway. Unrelated to the above, there is one thing about American culture I've struggled to understand, and I wonder how you see it. On one hand, more Americans than Europeans see themselves as Christian. And those who are Christian in Europe, are typically more secular than in the US. -At least that's my impression. The one thing I can't quite get to add up is how Amwerican culture at the same time is so focused on material wealth. One thing the bible makes abundantly clear is that one is not to worship mammon. And Jesus stated that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. But when I listen to some American preachers, like Joel Osteen in Texas, they speak openly about getting rich as some kind of natural goal in life. Joel Osteen, for example, claims that if one prays to God, then God will help one's business to make more money. It reminds me of this song by Janis Joplin: Is it correct that American Christianity has merged with materialism, or is this an unfair stereotype? And does it vary from state to state? Are there, for example, places in the US where Christians are openly anti-materialistic? I know about the Amish, but I don't know whether they're just the exception to confirm the rule. About American Christianity and materialism. As you recall America was first settled by dissenting protestants and among protestants of this kind wealth was seen as a sign of God's favor among them. This was what led to the so called, "protestant work ethic" trying to work hard to earn money and show you had God's favor. As for Joel Osteen in Texas, he is a part of a movement called the "prosperity gospel" which teaches that God will give you prosperity if you follow him probably arising from that dissenting tradition and most American Christians consider this a heretical position. I myself don't think that wealth is incompatible with Christianity as the next thing that Jesus says about the rich man being hard to save is that with God, nothing is impossible. I think it's the idolization of money that is evil not money in it of itself. I think what Jesus is saying is that it would be hard for a rich man to not idolize his money as shown by the man prompting the story not being willing to give up all of his possessions to become a follower of Jesus. He valued his possessions more than following Jesus. Anyways, most Americans hold to the idea of the American dream where it is believed that anyone can rise to be a rich man with hard work, luck, and talent so trying to get rich is a big part of American culture anyways and this also has a bit of an effect on Christianity here I'd wager. As for non materialist Christianity, I think that most American Christians are not anti wealth or against people with wealth but idolatry of all kinds is considered evil. As for Yeoman farmers, it just means an independent farmer who owns his own land rather than being a tenant of someone else like an aristocratic lord, but I don't know Norway's history very well so I digress. I don't think its very controversial that genetics has a lot to do with a lot of things. I think the discussion around it boils down to the fact that saying that nature has anything to do with violence and other distasteful behaviors is politically incorrect and people don't want to believe it, but to say that genes effect everything about you except your brain to me is just ridiculous wishful thinking. I have a degree in criminal justice and took criminology and my college like many colleges is pretty leftist bent but even they taught that there is a heavy genetic element to crime. Like I said, I believe in free will but we are bent in a certain direction would be my contention.
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Post by karl on Apr 4, 2021 11:18:33 GMT
Clovis Merovingian I've seen that experiment. Some guy bumped into the subject, for then to throw an insult at him. In one example, the northern guy just looked at him as if he was thinking: "What's up with him?" The southern guy reacted with a very loud: "Hey!", and stood ready to take a confrontation. After the experiment, some people from the north thought this made Southern people look bad, and tried to defend them by claiming this experiment didn't really prove southerners were more aggressive. However, southerners had no issue with being portrayed this way, and saw the northern subjects as complete wimps for reacting so passively. I'm not disputing the difference in aggression level you describe between the north and the south. The question is whether it is genetic, cultural, or both. -Which is a never ending discussion- It's like when people discuss whether intelligence is nature or nurture. Researchers in that field were once asked to give a percentage, and one got answers from 0% nature and 100% nurture, to 100% nature and 0% nurture, and everything in between, with 50/50 being the average. I looked up "Yeoman". That refers to England. I'm not sure what relevance that has for Norway. Unrelated to the above, there is one thing about American culture I've struggled to understand, and I wonder how you see it. On one hand, more Americans than Europeans see themselves as Christian. And those who are Christian in Europe, are typically more secular than in the US. -At least that's my impression. The one thing I can't quite get to add up is how Amwerican culture at the same time is so focused on material wealth. One thing the bible makes abundantly clear is that one is not to worship mammon. And Jesus stated that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. But when I listen to some American preachers, like Joel Osteen in Texas, they speak openly about getting rich as some kind of natural goal in life. Joel Osteen, for example, claims that if one prays to God, then God will help one's business to make more money. It reminds me of this song by Janis Joplin: Is it correct that American Christianity has merged with materialism, or is this an unfair stereotype? And does it vary from state to state? Are there, for example, places in the US where Christians are openly anti-materialistic? I know about the Amish, but I don't know whether they're just the exception to confirm the rule. About American Christianity and materialism. As you recall America was first settled by dissenting protestants and among protestants of this kind wealth was seen as a sign of God's favor among them. This was what led to the so called, "protestant work ethic" trying to work hard to earn money and show you had God's favor. As for Joel Osteen in Texas, he is a part of a movement called the "prosperity gospel" which teaches that God will give you prosperity if you follow him probably arising from that dissenting tradition and most American Christians consider this a heretical position. I myself don't think that wealth is incompatible with Christianity as the next thing that Jesus says about the rich man being hard to save is that with God, nothing is impossible. I think it's the idolization of money that is evil not money in it of itself. I think what Jesus is saying is that it would be hard for a rich man to not idolize his money as shown by the man prompting the story not being willing to give up all of his possessions to become a follower of Jesus. He valued his possessions more than following Jesus. Anyways, most Americans hold to the idea of the American dream where it is believed that anyone can rise to be a rich man with hard work, luck, and talent so trying to get rich is a big part of American culture anyways and this also has a bit of an effect on Christianity here I'd wager. As for non materialist Christianity, I think that most American Christians are not anti wealth or against people with wealth but idolatry of all kinds is considered evil. As for Yeoman farmers, it just means an independent farmer who owns his own land rather than being a tenant of someone else like an aristocratic lord, but I don't know Norway's history very well so I digress. I don't think its very controversial that genetics has a lot to do with a lot of things. I think the discussion around it boils down to the fact that saying that nature has anything to do with violence and other distasteful behaviors is politically incorrect and people don't want to believe it, but to say that genes effect everything about you except your brain to me is just ridiculous wishful thinking. I have a degree in criminal justice and took criminology and my college like many colleges is pretty leftist bent but even they taught that there is a heavy genetic element to crime. Like I said, I believe in free will but we are bent in a certain direction would be my contention.
The Norwegians who emigrated to America where from what we might loosely refer to the lower middle class back then. -Which would include the poorer among those who owned their own land, many of which left to escape religious and political oppression. The wealthy had an incentive to stay, while the poorest couldn't afford to leave. In the year 1800, 800.000 Norwegians lived in Norway, and in the next 100 years, that same number, 800.000, emigrated to America. Only form Ireland did a larger share of the population emigrate. This makes it difficult to assess whether or not today's Norwegians are mostly descendants of Yeoman farmers.
Is the hypothesis that the poorest part of the population died due to starvation and malnutrition, leading to very high infant mortality rates and hence eliminating them from the gene pool?
The claim that genes play no role in regards to human behaviour is ideological. But to me the question is rather whether nature vs nurture is 80/20 or 20/80. Because the ideologues to the left where allowed to dominate for a long time, there was eventually a backlash. And when the pendulum swings the other way, it doesn't stop anywhere near the center. When the old position is falsified, the complete negation of it is often held as true. It reminds me of how the fall of Communism lead to neo-liberalism in the West, with the end of functional regulations for financial institutions, eventually leading to the collapse in 2008.
By the way, the protestant work ethics was very strong in Norway as well, but manifested differently in Norwegian culture, which is more phlegmatic and tend to be suspicious of attention seekers. Where I live, people were, especially in the past, very careful never to brag. So if someone here had done well economically, his typical response to people bringing it up would be: "I haven't been unlucky." It doesn't mean that they weren't materialistic. When they bought something, it was very important for them to buy "the best", and hope that others would notice without them having to point it out to them.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 5, 2021 8:30:02 GMT
About American Christianity and materialism. As you recall America was first settled by dissenting protestants and among protestants of this kind wealth was seen as a sign of God's favor among them. This was what led to the so called, "protestant work ethic" trying to work hard to earn money and show you had God's favor. As for Joel Osteen in Texas, he is a part of a movement called the "prosperity gospel" which teaches that God will give you prosperity if you follow him probably arising from that dissenting tradition and most American Christians consider this a heretical position. I myself don't think that wealth is incompatible with Christianity as the next thing that Jesus says about the rich man being hard to save is that with God, nothing is impossible. I think it's the idolization of money that is evil not money in it of itself. I think what Jesus is saying is that it would be hard for a rich man to not idolize his money as shown by the man prompting the story not being willing to give up all of his possessions to become a follower of Jesus. He valued his possessions more than following Jesus. Anyways, most Americans hold to the idea of the American dream where it is believed that anyone can rise to be a rich man with hard work, luck, and talent so trying to get rich is a big part of American culture anyways and this also has a bit of an effect on Christianity here I'd wager. As for non materialist Christianity, I think that most American Christians are not anti wealth or against people with wealth but idolatry of all kinds is considered evil. As for Yeoman farmers, it just means an independent farmer who owns his own land rather than being a tenant of someone else like an aristocratic lord, but I don't know Norway's history very well so I digress. I don't think its very controversial that genetics has a lot to do with a lot of things. I think the discussion around it boils down to the fact that saying that nature has anything to do with violence and other distasteful behaviors is politically incorrect and people don't want to believe it, but to say that genes effect everything about you except your brain to me is just ridiculous wishful thinking. I have a degree in criminal justice and took criminology and my college like many colleges is pretty leftist bent but even they taught that there is a heavy genetic element to crime. Like I said, I believe in free will but we are bent in a certain direction would be my contention.
The Norwegians who emigrated to America where from what we might loosely refer to the lower middle class back then. -Which would include the poorer among those who owned their own land, many of which left to escape religious and political oppression. The wealthy had an incentive to stay, while the poorest couldn't afford to leave. In the year 1800, 800.000 Norwegians lived in Norway, and in the next 100 years, that same number, 800.000, emigrated to America. Only form Ireland did a larger share of the population emigrate. This makes it difficult to assess whether or not today's Norwegians are mostly descendants of Yeoman farmers.
Is the hypothesis that the poorest part of the population died due to starvation and malnutrition, leading to very high infant mortality rates and hence eliminating them from the gene pool?
The claim that genes play no role in regards to human behaviour is ideological. But to me the question is rather whether nature vs nurture is 80/20 or 20/80. Because the ideologues to the left where allowed to dominate for a long time, there was eventually a backlash. And when the pendulum swings the other way, it doesn't stop anywhere near the center. When the old position is falsified, the complete negation of it is often held as true. It reminds me of how the fall of Communism lead to neo-liberalism in the West, with the end of functional regulations for financial institutions, eventually leading to the collapse in 2008.
By the way, the protestant work ethics was very strong in Norway as well, but manifested differently in Norwegian culture, which is more phlegmatic and tend to be suspicious of attention seekers. Where I live, people were, especially in the past, very careful never to brag. So if someone here had done well economically, his typical response to people bringing it up would be: "I haven't been unlucky." It doesn't mean that they weren't materialistic. When they bought something, it was very important for them to buy "the best", and hope that others would notice without them having to point it out to them.
Yeah, I think I got my articles mixed up. Here's the paper I was thinking about regarding the Genetic pacification of Western Europe which posits that violence went down in Western Europe because the most violent people were culled from the population. journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491501300114 .
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Post by karl on Apr 5, 2021 10:41:57 GMT
The Norwegians who emigrated to America where from what we might loosely refer to the lower middle class back then. -Which would include the poorer among those who owned their own land, many of which left to escape religious and political oppression. The wealthy had an incentive to stay, while the poorest couldn't afford to leave. In the year 1800, 800.000 Norwegians lived in Norway, and in the next 100 years, that same number, 800.000, emigrated to America. Only form Ireland did a larger share of the population emigrate. This makes it difficult to assess whether or not today's Norwegians are mostly descendants of Yeoman farmers.
Is the hypothesis that the poorest part of the population died due to starvation and malnutrition, leading to very high infant mortality rates and hence eliminating them from the gene pool?
The claim that genes play no role in regards to human behaviour is ideological. But to me the question is rather whether nature vs nurture is 80/20 or 20/80. Because the ideologues to the left where allowed to dominate for a long time, there was eventually a backlash. And when the pendulum swings the other way, it doesn't stop anywhere near the center. When the old position is falsified, the complete negation of it is often held as true. It reminds me of how the fall of Communism lead to neo-liberalism in the West, with the end of functional regulations for financial institutions, eventually leading to the collapse in 2008.
By the way, the protestant work ethics was very strong in Norway as well, but manifested differently in Norwegian culture, which is more phlegmatic and tend to be suspicious of attention seekers. Where I live, people were, especially in the past, very careful never to brag. So if someone here had done well economically, his typical response to people bringing it up would be: "I haven't been unlucky." It doesn't mean that they weren't materialistic. When they bought something, it was very important for them to buy "the best", and hope that others would notice without them having to point it out to them.
Yeah, I think I got my articles mixed up. Here's the paper I was thinking about regarding the Genetic pacification of Western Europe which posits that violence went down in Western Europe because the most violent people were culled from the population. journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491501300114 .
Yes, I've heard about that hypothesis before. After reading through parts of the article, one sentence stood out to me:
"This process must have had genetic consequences, since aggressive/antisocial behavior is moderately to highly heritable."
"Moderately to highly" would cover a wide variety of views. I don't deny that aggression is moderately heritable, and if it is, removing aggressive people from the gene pool would have had some effect. But the question is how large that effect is. The author points out that already from the mid 18th century people started turning on the death penalty. Still, murder rates went down in Europe:
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 5, 2021 11:33:47 GMT
Yeah, I think I got my articles mixed up. Here's the paper I was thinking about regarding the Genetic pacification of Western Europe which posits that violence went down in Western Europe because the most violent people were culled from the population. journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491501300114 .
Yes, I've heard about that hypothesis before. After reading through parts of the article, one sentence stood out to me:
"This process must have had genetic consequences, since aggressive/antisocial behavior is moderately to highly heritable."
"Moderately to highly" would cover a wide variety of views. I don't deny that aggression is moderately heritable, and if it is, removing aggressive people from the gene pool would have had some effect. But the question is how large that effect is. The author points out that already from the mid 18th century people started turning on the death penalty. Still, murder rates went down in Europe:
The mid 18th century is very late in the timeframe of this hypothesis. A lot of violent people would've been culled from the gene pool by that time and most of the murder rate according to your graph had already dropped dramatically over the centuries. The damage was done so to speak and there is no reason that the trend wouldn't continue. And looking at your graph, the drop in murder rates wasn't that dramatic in the mid eighteenth century. Compared to the rest of the centuries it looks like it flat lined in some countries though to be fair it doesn't seem like it had very far to drop. Another interesting thing that I would like to point out about your graph is that one of these things is not like the other, that being Italy. All of the countries save Italy are Northwestern European countries and further than that they are all Germanic speaking countries with a history of settlement by Germanic tribes. Italy is Southern European and has higher murder rates. If you look at the countries of Europe today, it is Northwestern European mostly Germanic regions like England, Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavia, and the the Netherlands that are the wealthiest, happiest, safest, highest achieving regions in Europe. Regions like Spain, Italy, Greece, the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the like lag behind in comparison. In Italy itself there is a strong cultural and ethnic divide between the north and the south of Italy with the north having more history of Germanic incursions and being more influenced by central Europe and the south being more medditerrainain or even North African. Guess which part of the country is rich and which part of the country is poor, where the renaissance started and where the renaissance passed right by and which part of the country wants to secede from the other part because its tired of supporting them with their wealth? You can ascribe these things to cultural forces but what cultural forces would you be talking about? All of the great intellectual, legal, philosophical, governmental, scientific currents that are said to make Western Civilization so much more successful than everyone else were far more accessible to Southern Europeans than Northern Europeans but when this stuff hit Northwestern Europe it was Northwestern Europeans who ran with it and surpassed their southern brethren creating the industrial revolution, the enlightenment the, scientific revolution and everything else. I'm not ruling out cultural forces, obviously they are important, but I tend to give more weight to genetic predispositions being expressed in a certain cultural climate (the same genes that would make someone a Puritan in England in the 17th century would make someone a social justice warrior today). If you have a group of people who live in the same area and start breeding with each other extensively they are going to have common personality and intellectual predispositions. Also, this is not me claiming any group is superior to any other group. Like I said I come from a group with a lot of problems. All humans are made in the image of God and so on and so forth. I just think that believing that nature/nurture is 20/80 is wishful thinking. 50/50 at most but 20/80? No.
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Post by karl on Apr 5, 2021 13:21:08 GMT
Clovis Merovingian It's kind of interesting that you're open to the possibility that it could be 50/50. It's just that for you it's the maximum in terms of cultural influence, while I would see it as the minimum. The problem with both evolution psychology and sociology is that these field of research attempt to describe something too complicated for the hypothetical deductive method, which is why inter subjectivity sneaks in to fill in the gaps. Yes, the renaissance started in Italy, or Tuscany to be more exact, and was, in my view, triggered by the black plague and the inability of the church to deal with it. So, instead, one saw the first attempts to understand the world through Empiricism rather than religious faith. I do not know how much the gene pool in Tuscany had been influence by the immigration of German tribes, but I presume the population were still mainly Mediterranean. And the suggestion that Mediterraneans would need Germanic genes to become interested in philosophy, art, literature, and engineering, seems odd given that the renaissance was itself highly influenced by Greek philosophy and art, and the ancient Greeks were Mediterraneans. I have heard claims that the ancient Greeks had northern genes, but one may only look at the facial features of their statues, to see that they look more like modern day Mediterraneans than any other ethnicity. But perhaps your main point was that it was North Western Europe that took it a step further. So while the UK was in the backwater compared to Italy in the 14th century, it rose up to become the main power after defeating the Spanish fleet in the 17th century, and started the industrial revolution in the late 18th century. I'm not sure what this proves. Each culture, nation, and civilization has its heyday before it runs out of motivation and loses faith in itself. Same thing happened to the UK after WW2. It would be unheard of if Italy had been the leading nation of Europe from the 14th century and up to this day. Many people in the UK thought for a long time that because the UK got a head start technologically, it would continue to lead technologically forever, and were surprised when smaller nations like Sweden were able to make cars as good as the British ones. I would also put at least as much emphasis on being the pioneers and being the ones who, as you put it, who "ran with it". Japan and China has learned from the West, and especially Japan has been very skilled in perfectionising modern technology. All my digital cameras are Japanese, as well as all but one of my lenses, are made in Japan. -And the one that's not is made in South-Korea. Even my Zeiss lens, which is of German brand, is made in Japan. If Asia ends up dominating the future, then I'm sure they would claim that while the West might have started the technological age, it was the Asian countries that ran with it. One thing I believe to observe in this world is the effect climate has on people. Canadians are more phlegmatic than Americans, and particularly Southern Americans. Scandinavians are more phlegmatic than South Europeans. If you talk to South Europeans living in Scandinavia, they will also come across as more phlegmatic than Southern Europeans living in, for example, Italy. It's not difficult for me, living in a cold country, to understand why we don't have anything resembling Brazilian carnivals here, even during the summer when it would be practically possible. Cold climate calms people down. And as for how culture affects people. East Asians living in the West are often referred to by other East Asians as "bananas" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside). A Japanese woman having lived her entire life in Norway will come across very differently from one embedded in the Japanese kawaii culture. To sum up, I think genetics accounts for 20-50% of human behavior, while I'm guessing you think it's more like 50-80%. Science won't help us decide who's right, for the whole topic is way too complicated for science to do much but to rule out the most ideologically inspired views.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 5, 2021 14:25:37 GMT
Clovis Merovingian It's kind of interesting that you're open to the possibility that it could be 50/50. It's just that for you it's the maximum in terms of cultural influence, while I would see it as the minimum. The problem with both evolution psychology and sociology is that these field of research attempt to describe something too complicated for the hypothetical deductive method, which is why inter subjectivity sneaks in to fill in the gaps. Yes, the renaissance started in Italy, or Tuscany to be more exact, and was, in my view, triggered by the black plague and the inability of the church to deal with it. So, instead, one saw the first attempts to understand the world through Empiricism rather than religious faith. I do not know how much the gene pool in Tuscany had been influence by the immigration of German tribes, but I presume the population were still mainly Mediterranean. And the suggestion that Mediterraneans would need Germanic genes to become interested in philosophy, art, literature, and engineering, seems odd given that the renaissance was itself highly influenced by Greek philosophy and art, and the ancient Greeks were Mediterraneans. I have heard claims that the ancient Greeks had northern genes, but one may only look at the facial features of their statues, to see that they look more like modern day Mediterraneans than any other ethnicity. The people in Tuscany and Northern Italy are not predominately Mediterranean, they belong to a classification of people called Alpines and are genetically distinct from Southern Italians and more similar to Swiss people or Southern Germans. Round faces, fair skin, chestnut brown or blonde hair, short limbs, and the like. Below is a picture of a crowd of Tuscans.
You are right to say that the Greeks were Mediterranean and started Western Civilization, and that's what I'm talking about when I say that genetics are expressed differently depending on the cultural environment they're in. The Greeks were right there on the Mediterranean sea which connected most of the early civilizations and had contact with the Middle East while the Northern European tribes were cut off from it by Southern European peoples. Ideas and innovations were traded over that sea. Greeks are not dumb, they are smart by world standards, just on average less intelligent than Northern Europeans but smarter than Middle Easterners (who are also not "dumb" by world standards). They had the advantage of geography and being more naturally endowed than most peoples and in the end, it was the Romans that conquered and United the whole of the Mediterranean under one empire and dominated the rest of their neighbors in said Mediterranean. But perhaps your main point was that it was North Western Europe that took it a step further. So while the UK was in the backwater compared to Italy in the 14th century, it rose up to become the main power after defeating the Spanish fleet in the 17th century, and started the industrial revolution in the late 18th century. I'm not sure what this proves. Each culture, nation, and civilization has its heyday before it runs out of motivation and loses faith in itself. Same thing happened to the UK after WW2. It would be unheard of if Italy had been the leading nation of Europe from the 14th century and up to this day. Many people in the UK thought for a long time that because the UK got a head start technologically, it would continue to lead technologically forever, and were surprised when smaller nations like Sweden were able to make cars as good as the British ones. Yes, but the UK is still one of the higher tier countries of Europe in positive indicators if not the highest by some measurements. I would also put at least as much emphasis on being the pioneers and being the ones who, as you put it, who "ran with it". Japan and China has learned from the West, and especially Japan has been very skilled in perfectionising modern technology. All my digital cameras are Japanese, as well as all but one of my lenses, are made in Japan. -And the one that's not is made in South-Korea. Even my Zeiss lens, which is of German brand, is made in Japan. If Asia ends up dominating the future, then I'm sure they would claim that while the West might have started the technological age, it was the Asian countries that ran with it. This supports my point rather than refutes it. Northeast Asians have the highest IQ's of any population group in the world. Of course they're going to run with it in the same fashion Northwestern Europeans did with the innovations of the Mediterranean peoples and the Mediterranean peoples did with the Middle Easterners in a chain of higher IQ peoples running with and improving upon the innovations of lower IQ civilizations. Remember also that China has for most of its history been the most powerful state on earth probably until the rise of the West so this is nothing new for them.One thing I believe to observe in this world is the effect climate has on people. Canadians are more phlegmatic than Americans, and particularly Southern Americans. Scandinavians are more phlegmatic than South Europeans. If you talk to South Europeans living in Scandinavia, they will also come across as more phlegmatic than Southern Europeans living in, for example, Italy. It's not difficult for me, living in a cold country, to understand why we don't have anything resembling Brazilian carnivals here, even during the summer when it would be practically possible. Cold climate calms people down. Yes.And as for how culture affects people. East Asians living in the West are often referred to by other East Asians as "bananas" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside). A Japanese woman having lived her entire life in Norway will come across very differently from one embedded in the Japanese kawaii culture. And these North East Asian bananas, at least in the United States are far more educated than any group in the country, they are wealthier than any group in the country, they have more stable family lives than every group in the country, commit far less crime than any other group in the country, and perform far better on nearly every positive indicator you can think of than any other group in the country because fundamentally they are still Northeast Asians living in a Western country.To sum up, I think genetics accounts for 20-50% of human behavior, while I'm guessing you think it's more like 50-80%. Science won't help us decide who's right, for the whole topic is way too complicated for science to do much but to rule out the most ideologically inspired views. We will have to agree to disagree but some of these things stand out to me that I am responding to in the blue.
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Post by karl on Apr 5, 2021 17:49:16 GMT
Clovis Merovingian It's kind of interesting that you're open to the possibility that it could be 50/50. It's just that for you it's the maximum in terms of cultural influence, while I would see it as the minimum. The problem with both evolution psychology and sociology is that these field of research attempt to describe something too complicated for the hypothetical deductive method, which is why inter subjectivity sneaks in to fill in the gaps. Yes, the renaissance started in Italy, or Tuscany to be more exact, and was, in my view, triggered by the black plague and the inability of the church to deal with it. So, instead, one saw the first attempts to understand the world through Empiricism rather than religious faith. I do not know how much the gene pool in Tuscany had been influence by the immigration of German tribes, but I presume the population were still mainly Mediterranean. And the suggestion that Mediterraneans would need Germanic genes to become interested in philosophy, art, literature, and engineering, seems odd given that the renaissance was itself highly influenced by Greek philosophy and art, and the ancient Greeks were Mediterraneans. I have heard claims that the ancient Greeks had northern genes, but one may only look at the facial features of their statues, to see that they look more like modern day Mediterraneans than any other ethnicity. The people in Tuscany and Northern Italy are not predominately Mediterranean, they belong to a classification of people called Alpines and are genetically distinct from Southern Italians and more similar to Swiss people or Southern Germans. Round faces, fair skin, chestnut brown or blonde hair, short limbs, and the like. Below is a picture of a crowd of Tuscans.
You are right to say that the Greeks were Mediterranean and started Western Civilization, and that's what I'm talking about when I say that genetics are expressed differently depending on the cultural environment they're in. The Greeks were right there on the Mediterranean sea which connected most of the early civilizations and had contact with the Middle East while the Northern European tribes were cut off from it by Southern European peoples. Ideas and innovations were traded over that sea. Greeks are not dumb, they are smart by world standards, just on average less intelligent than Northern Europeans but smarter than Middle Easterners (who are also not "dumb" by world standards). They had the advantage of geography and being more naturally endowed than most peoples and in the end, it was the Romans that conquered and United the whole of the Mediterranean under one empire and dominated the rest of their neighbors in said Mediterranean. But perhaps your main point was that it was North Western Europe that took it a step further. So while the UK was in the backwater compared to Italy in the 14th century, it rose up to become the main power after defeating the Spanish fleet in the 17th century, and started the industrial revolution in the late 18th century. I'm not sure what this proves. Each culture, nation, and civilization has its heyday before it runs out of motivation and loses faith in itself. Same thing happened to the UK after WW2. It would be unheard of if Italy had been the leading nation of Europe from the 14th century and up to this day. Many people in the UK thought for a long time that because the UK got a head start technologically, it would continue to lead technologically forever, and were surprised when smaller nations like Sweden were able to make cars as good as the British ones. Yes, but the UK is still one of the higher tier countries of Europe in positive indicators if not the highest by some measurements. I would also put at least as much emphasis on being the pioneers and being the ones who, as you put it, who "ran with it". Japan and China has learned from the West, and especially Japan has been very skilled in perfectionising modern technology. All my digital cameras are Japanese, as well as all but one of my lenses, are made in Japan. -And the one that's not is made in South-Korea. Even my Zeiss lens, which is of German brand, is made in Japan. If Asia ends up dominating the future, then I'm sure they would claim that while the West might have started the technological age, it was the Asian countries that ran with it. This supports my point rather than refutes it. Northeast Asians have the highest IQ's of any population group in the world. Of course they're going to run with it in the same fashion Northwestern Europeans did with the innovations of the Mediterranean peoples and the Mediterranean peoples did with the Middle Easterners in a chain of higher IQ peoples running with and improving upon the innovations of lower IQ civilizations. Remember also that China has for most of its history been the most powerful state on earth probably until the rise of the West so this is nothing new for them.One thing I believe to observe in this world is the effect climate has on people. Canadians are more phlegmatic than Americans, and particularly Southern Americans. Scandinavians are more phlegmatic than South Europeans. If you talk to South Europeans living in Scandinavia, they will also come across as more phlegmatic than Southern Europeans living in, for example, Italy. It's not difficult for me, living in a cold country, to understand why we don't have anything resembling Brazilian carnivals here, even during the summer when it would be practically possible. Cold climate calms people down. Yes.And as for how culture affects people. East Asians living in the West are often referred to by other East Asians as "bananas" (yellow on the outside, white on the inside). A Japanese woman having lived her entire life in Norway will come across very differently from one embedded in the Japanese kawaii culture. And these North East Asian bananas, at least in the United States are far more educated than any group in the country, they are wealthier than any group in the country, they have more stable family lives than every group in the country, commit far less crime than any other group in the country, and perform far better on nearly every positive indicator you can think of than any other group in the country because fundamentally they are still Northeast Asians living in a Western country.To sum up, I think genetics accounts for 20-50% of human behavior, while I'm guessing you think it's more like 50-80%. Science won't help us decide who's right, for the whole topic is way too complicated for science to do much but to rule out the most ideologically inspired views. We will have to agree to disagree but some of these things stand out to me that I am responding to in the blue.
I knew that people in Northern Italy looked different from those in the south, but I thought that was due to the Moors conquering Sicily in the 9th century, which also affected the gene pool of the southern peninsula. I'll accept what you wrote about it, since it's the first time I've heard about Alpines as an ethnicity. So I presume it's a mixture of Germanic and Mediterranean genes.
You write about the intelligence of different ethnicities as if it's an established fact, which follows from equating intelligence of an ethnicity with its average IQ. IQ tests measure something, and they're certainly better than reading tea leaves, but there are aspects of intelligence it doesn't measure. An IQ score doesn't reveal someone's creativity, and hence ability to think outside the box. The person with the allegedly highest IQ score is Marilyn vos Savant, who hasn't done anything to add to the collective insight. The perhaps more prominent physicist of the second half of the 20th century, Richard Feynman, got an IQ score of 125. That's lower than the average score for physicists, which lays somewhere around 130. The world champion in chess, Kasparov, was for a while on a list of people with very high estimated IQs, with a suggested IQ of 190. Turns out he had taken a test paid for by a German magazine and gotten 135.
There is a high correlation between IQ and how well one performs in higher education. And one reason for this is that creativity is not required for learning. Many academics have very high IQs and tons of knowledge, but as with the general population, it's only a small minority of them who actually think for themselves. Discussing with many academics feels like discussing with the authors of the books they've read. Once they've done reciting what they've learned, they often have nothing more to add.
So a high IQ indicates a talent for adapting and internalizing already existing insight. And you're right about the Romans, that is exactly what they did. An Italian I corresponded with told me that many Italians aren't too impressed with the Romans, precisely because all they mostly did was to learn and adopt from other cultures, rather than invent anything themselves, whether it was art or technology.
Modern China's main strength is its ability to adapt. It's main weakness is its emphasis on social harmony over individuality. Where the individual is kept down, so is creativity. This is why China is dependent on Western innovation.
This is up for everyone to decide for themselves, but I place more emphasis on innovation and creativity, than adaptation skills. And I believe that if Asia is really to dominate in the future, Asian cultures have to allow the individual more room. China was strong enough in the 15th century to have competed with Europe for world dominance, but instead retreated into itself and stagnated.
The following is my own personal view, and not one I need others to agree with, but I am more impressed with the Ancient Greeks than I am with the Romans. I am more impressed with African-Americans for inventing the blues, than with hip white people who learn how to play blues with great skill. And I'm more impressed with technological innovators than those who later perfectionize it.
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