|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 17, 2020 5:18:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by karl on Oct 17, 2020 12:49:53 GMT
Already, fetuses with Down's syndrome are weeded out through abortion. If they figure out how to identify whether a child is likely to develop autism already during the pregnancy, then that might be next. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Albert Einstein was autistic by today's standard. The history of great thinkers and artists are full of people with abnormalities, whether autism, schizophrenia, epilepsy, or personality disorders. Theodore Lidz, an expert on Schizophrenia, asserted that Isaac Newton was schizophrenic. Van Gogh was psychotic, Dostoyevsky was epileptic, and Thomas Wolfe had Borderline personality disorder. If we let the gate keepers of normality filter out everyone who doesn't fit the given standards, human kind will have sterilised itself intellectually, artistically, and spiritually.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 19, 2020 14:21:17 GMT
It's really true.
But what would you choose: to live in a society with many geniuses who have psychic abnormalities, or in a psychic healthy, yet geniusless one?
It's just a question, nothing more. If I were you I would had stuck clueless. 'Cause I can't answer this.
|
|
|
|
Post by karl on Oct 19, 2020 14:36:16 GMT
It's really true. But what would you choose: to live in a society with many geniuses who have psychic abnormalities, or in a psychic healthy, yet geniusless one? It's just a question, nothing more. If I were you I would had stuck clueless. 'Cause I can't answer this.
To me that's like asking whether I'd like to live among the troubled but consciously aware, rather than among happy zombies. If humanity ends up as the latter, it can perish for all I care.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 19, 2020 16:03:40 GMT
It's really true. But what would you choose: to live in a society with many geniuses who have psychic abnormalities, or in a psychic healthy, yet geniusless one? It's just a question, nothing more. If I were you I would had stuck clueless. 'Cause I can't answer this.
To me that's like asking whether I'd like to live among the troubled but consciously aware, rather than among happy zombies. If humanity ends up as the latter, it can perish for all I care.
 Nice zombie example, nuff said. My mind can't even accommodate such a situation when there are "happy zombies". By the way have you read Gilbert Ryle's "The Concept of Mind" about Descartes's mistake of thinking soul separately to body? As I understand Ryle he's supposed to say that Descartes deliberately pick a certain area and calls it "consciousness" or "the mind". (Descartes also described a heart's motors work, so in the same manner he wrote it relate to the brains work – that the center of thinking ability was within a limb (I don't remember exact name of it) inside the brain. So, that mistake then became overshared and many philosophers caught that pill that leaded them in the wrong way. That's why thinking that there is another one center in us, or our brains, is to double the current position of what we do know (or about what we're sure) at the time. Trying to follow Ryle's arguments I created some illustrative phrases by myself. Actually, Ryle was right about the mistake whether or not Descartes had created the concept that we took then from him. The scriptures of the French philosopher may barely prove it. About the mind and the body Descartes wrote as if he had written that there were a heart and a heartless body or there were a point and a pointless area; so, the human is a mind in a mindless body. The last one is kinda fun. Seemed Descartes exercised in dialects. I guess in the light of Ryle's speculations "happy zombies" must be the non-human creatures that are happy or the happy animals. And also, what do you think of a chance to heal up those (in your example) which are aware, but troubled, and those happy zombies? Can we cure anyone? |
|
|
|
Post by karl on Oct 19, 2020 18:27:49 GMT
To me that's like asking whether I'd like to live among the troubled but consciously aware, rather than among happy zombies. If humanity ends up as the latter, it can perish for all I care.
Nice zombie example, nuff said. My mind can't even accommodate such a situation when there are "happy zombies". By the way have you read Gilbert Ryle's "The Concept of Mind" about Descartes's mistake of thinking soul separately to body? As I understand Ryle he's supposed to say that Descartes deliberately pick a certain area and calls it "consciousness" or "the mind". (Descartes also described a heart's motors work, so in the same manner he wrote it relate to the brains work – that the center of thinking ability was within a limb (I don't remember exact name of it) inside the brain. So, that mistake then became overshared and many philosophers caught that pill that leaded them in the wrong way. That's why thinking that there is another one center in us, or our brains, is to double the current position of what we do know (or about what we're sure) at the time. Trying to follow Ryle's arguments I created some illustrative phrases by myself. Actually, Ryle was right about the mistake whether or not Descartes had created the concept that we took then from him. The scriptures of the French philosopher may barely prove it. About the mind and the body Descartes wrote as if he had written that there were a heart and a heartless body or there were a point and a pointless area; so, the human is a mind in a mindless body. The last one is kinda fun. Seemed Descartes exercised in dialects. I guess in the light of Ryle's speculations "happy zombies" must be the non-human creatures that are happy or the happy animals. And also, what do you think of a chance to heal up those (in your example) which are aware, but troubled, and those happy zombies? Can we cure anyone?
The brain is the landscape that the "I" maneuvers in, and sets a limit to to what one may choose, but that limit may be expanded as the choices one's make will affect the physical structure of the brain over time. Consciousness is dependent on the brain and will cease to be in this world without it.
Happy zombies may only cure themselves. While circumstances can put people temporarily in a state of low awareness, they choose themselves whether to embrace or attempt to escape it. What I've persistently observed throughout my life is that most people prefer to be unaware, and trying to persuade them to change is a futile exercise.
Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware. This is not a condition to be cured. Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are. Acquiring insight needs a strong motivation, and the philosopher will always have an inner restlessness that drives him/her forward.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 20, 2020 12:09:47 GMT
Nice zombie example, nuff said. My mind can't even accommodate such a situation when there are "happy zombies". By the way have you read Gilbert Ryle's "The Concept of Mind" about Descartes's mistake of thinking soul separately to body? As I understand Ryle he's supposed to say that Descartes deliberately pick a certain area and calls it "consciousness" or "the mind". (Descartes also described a heart's motors work, so in the same manner he wrote it relate to the brains work – that the center of thinking ability was within a limb (I don't remember exact name of it) inside the brain. So, that mistake then became overshared and many philosophers caught that pill that leaded them in the wrong way. That's why thinking that there is another one center in us, or our brains, is to double the current position of what we do know (or about what we're sure) at the time. Trying to follow Ryle's arguments I created some illustrative phrases by myself. Actually, Ryle was right about the mistake whether or not Descartes had created the concept that we took then from him. The scriptures of the French philosopher may barely prove it. About the mind and the body Descartes wrote as if he had written that there were a heart and a heartless body or there were a point and a pointless area; so, the human is a mind in a mindless body. The last one is kinda fun. Seemed Descartes exercised in dialects. I guess in the light of Ryle's speculations "happy zombies" must be the non-human creatures that are happy or the happy animals. And also, what do you think of a chance to heal up those (in your example) which are aware, but troubled, and those happy zombies? Can we cure anyone?
The brain is the landscape that the "I" maneuvers in, and sets a limit to to what one may choose, but that limit may be expanded as the choices one's make will affect the physical structure of the brain over time. Consciousness is dependent on the brain and will cease to be in this world without it.
Happy zombies may only cure themselves. While circumstances can put people temporarily in a state of low awareness, they choose themselves whether to embrace or attempt to escape it. What I've persistently observed throughout my life is that most people prefer to be unaware, and trying to persuade them to change is a futile exercise.
Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware. This is not a condition to be cured. Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are. Acquiring insight needs a strong motivation, and the philosopher will always have an inner restlessness that drives him/her forward.
Must say your thoughts wake me up as a Prometheus flame, or Plato's sunlights. Not only to think deep, but to direct a person is an awesome talent! I underline it! Do agree on #2.2. It concerns me, because it's about me. The same with reading Uspensky or trying other ways relating to Godel's proof. (Thinking is a hard work. Lazy onez as myself are to sad and faithless to use brains as soldiers use spikes.) To #2.1: Zombies are to not have consciousness within their brains, so they can't struggle/resist; yet "zombied" (i.e. brainwashed etc) can. However considering Ryle's argument the zombies from #2.1 still can or cannot resist/struggle depending on whether they (zombies) have the free will. "Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware" – likewise to Solomon's words: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow". (Ecclesiastes 1:18) Read full chapter "Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are" – It's a really important thought of why philosophy is still alive and worth to be studied/learned/etc. You know, I guess I'm so gutless to admire how little my wish to study philosophy seriously is. Instead of reading a book or a chapter I'm playing games or more often – watch another movie... I catch myself on a thought: what's the difference between me and a vivisection's animal?.. There were many interesting and worth to study times, plenty of decent personalities which gifted us with ideas, thought, tasks, questions, answers, discussions... What have I done? What have I brought to this world?.. |
|
|
|
Post by jonbain on Oct 20, 2020 20:22:11 GMT
my brother has a 12 year-old autistic kid
i have hons in psych
so i have studied this extensively
its not genetic
probably caused due to physical damage
to the central nervous system
during birth, or ingestion of toxic
substances during pregnancy
i can recall my brother reacting with horror
at how this kid had to be induced to birth
no doubt in this case it was caused by the midwife / doctor
|
|
|
|
Post by karl on Oct 21, 2020 15:33:28 GMT
The brain is the landscape that the "I" maneuvers in, and sets a limit to to what one may choose, but that limit may be expanded as the choices one's make will affect the physical structure of the brain over time. Consciousness is dependent on the brain and will cease to be in this world without it.
Happy zombies may only cure themselves. While circumstances can put people temporarily in a state of low awareness, they choose themselves whether to embrace or attempt to escape it. What I've persistently observed throughout my life is that most people prefer to be unaware, and trying to persuade them to change is a futile exercise.
Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware. This is not a condition to be cured. Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are. Acquiring insight needs a strong motivation, and the philosopher will always have an inner restlessness that drives him/her forward.
Must say your thoughts wake me up as a Prometheus flame, or Plato's sunlights. Not only to think deep, but to direct a person is an awesome talent! I underline it! Do agree on #2.2. It concerns me, because it's about me. The same with reading Uspensky or trying other ways relating to Godel's proof. (Thinking is a hard work. Lazy onez as myself are to sad and faithless to use brains as soldiers use spikes.) To #2.1: Zombies are to not have consciousness within their brains, so they can't struggle/resist; yet "zombied" (i.e. brainwashed etc) can. However considering Ryle's argument the zombies from #2.1 still can or cannot resist/struggle depending on whether they (zombies) have the free will. "Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware" – likewise to Solomon's words: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow". (Ecclesiastes 1:18) Read full chapter "Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are" – It's a really important thought of why philosophy is still alive and worth to be studied/learned/etc. You know, I guess I'm so gutless to admire how little my wish to study philosophy seriously is. Instead of reading a book or a chapter I'm playing games or more often – watch another movie... I catch myself on a thought: what's the difference between me and a vivisection's animal?.. There were many interesting and worth to study times, plenty of decent personalities which gifted us with ideas, thought, tasks, questions, answers, discussions... What have I done? What have I brought to this world?..
Every path leads to Rome, and the only ones not reaching it are those who ceased to walk. Don't compare yourself to whatever image you project onto other people. Those are just illusions anyhow. If you continue to be philosophical in between gaming and watching movies, your progress might feel slow, but you'll cover vast distances eventually.
By the way, it took me three months to get through Uspensky's proof for the incompleteness theorem. That's about three days per page.
|
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 21, 2020 17:05:02 GMT
Life isn't without problems it's true. But some are born with things that they dislike since it makes their life harder. So I feel for those. Others might have something but if it doesn't really interfere then yay all good for them since it's not a big deal. Just working around those with autism who are severely impacted by it, I might hear, "I can't do it, sorry." So in education we're told to make exceptions with some based on things they just can't do after attempting it for a while. Some never even get potty trained you know? That one I can't understand unless something in the brain just doesn't tell them that they're grown and need to do that on their own.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 21, 2020 17:24:49 GMT
Must say your thoughts wake me up as a Prometheus flame, or Plato's sunlights. Not only to think deep, but to direct a person is an awesome talent! I underline it! Do agree on #2.2. It concerns me, because it's about me. The same with reading Uspensky or trying other ways relating to Godel's proof. (Thinking is a hard work. Lazy onez as myself are to sad and faithless to use brains as soldiers use spikes.) To #2.1: Zombies are to not have consciousness within their brains, so they can't struggle/resist; yet "zombied" (i.e. brainwashed etc) can. However considering Ryle's argument the zombies from #2.1 still can or cannot resist/struggle depending on whether they (zombies) have the free will. "Not being in a perfect state of harmony with oneself is the price to pay for being aware" – likewise to Solomon's words: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow". (Ecclesiastes 1:18) Read full chapter "Those who only seek enjoyment and inner peace will always be philosophically stillborn, irregardless of how intelligent or knowledgeable they are" – It's a really important thought of why philosophy is still alive and worth to be studied/learned/etc. You know, I guess I'm so gutless to admire how little my wish to study philosophy seriously is. Instead of reading a book or a chapter I'm playing games or more often – watch another movie... I catch myself on a thought: what's the difference between me and a vivisection's animal?.. There were many interesting and worth to study times, plenty of decent personalities which gifted us with ideas, thought, tasks, questions, answers, discussions... What have I done? What have I brought to this world?..
Every path leads to Rome, and the only ones not reaching it are those who ceased to walk. Don't compare yourself to whatever image you project onto other people. Those are just illusions anyhow. If you continue to be philosophical in between gaming and watching movies, your progress might feel slow, but you'll cover vast distances eventually.
By the way, it took me three months to get through Uspensky's proof for the incompleteness theorem. That's about three days per page.
"It took me three months to get through Uspensky's proof for the incompleteness theorem" – wow. It shows you had patience and courage to do it. I'm glad there are brave people in this about-madness world. Thank you for inspiring words! |
|
tamara
New Member
Posts: 36 
Likes: 21
Ethnicity: Flemish
Country: Born in Flanders, Living in the Netherlands
Location: The Low Countries
Ancestry: Germanic / Franco-Gaulish/ Bohemian
Politics: Right-wing Conservative
|
Post by tamara on Oct 29, 2020 19:58:30 GMT
Autism can be a real burden, not only for the autistic person, but also for the relatives. A good friend of mine has a autistic child and I see how it domninates their lives..
|
|
