johnbc
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Post by johnbc on Oct 3, 2020 22:33:14 GMT
Luther and Calvin had reduced the Eucharist to a memorial, they did not affirm "the" real presence in the literal and strong sense that the Catholic Church designates as "transubstantiation", but only what THEY themselves understood by "real presence". And what did they understand? Luther said that the Eucharistic species were NOT TRANSMUTED into the body and blood of the Savior, but remained intact in their material structure, on which Jesus only "deposited" himself by a means that came to be called "consubstantiation" and that Luther confessed that he didn't know what the hell it was. Calvin, for his part, believed that Jesus was there only "in spirit" and "for faith".
A good theory is, by definition, one that explains the facts. Transubstantiation explains the phenomenon of bleeding wafers, infinitely repeated throughout the world and conformed in laboratory by dr. Ricardo Castañon
It is obvious that if a host bleeds, it is flesh and not just bread, let alone "spiritual presence".
Not being able to account for this phenomenon either by Luther's theory or Calvin's theory, many Protestants have to explain this Eucharistic miracle either as cheating or as the work of the devil. In the first case, there was never even a serious attempt to prove cheating in the case of some Eucharistic miracle officially recognized by the Church. The second hypothesis may have a tremendous impact as an insult, but, of course, it results in saying that the devil has the power to transmute matter, which God does not. Sto. Augustine already observed that nothing pleases demons more than exaggerating the reach of their powers. The involuntary diabolism of this explanation already denotes a mental confusion that can be explained either as a result of natural ineptitude or as the work of demons.
The Eucharist is the means by which the faithful, absorbing Christ's body and blood, transform their own body and blood into them, and thus participate in the sacrifice of Calvary not only in spirit, but materially, through their terrestrial sufferings.
If there is no transmutation, if bread and wine are not materially the body of Christ, if they are only the unchanged material support of a mysterious presence, what is eaten and drank in the Eucharist is only that support, and not necessarily the presence, since Luther himself refuses to expose any nexus of necessity between one thing and the other.
If, even worse, the presence is only spiritual and "for the faith", it is not seen how a purely spiritual element could be eaten or drunk. Christ's words, "Whoever does not eat of my body or drink of my blood will not have eternal life", thus reduce to an unreasonable metaphor and a macabre bad taste. This is literally how Protestants interpret them, believing themselves to be very faithful to Christ, which shows an almost psychotic state of mental disorientation.
It follows from this the inevitable conclusion that, both in Lutheranism and in Calvinism, there is no integration of the body of the believer in the body of Christ, nor real participation in the sacrifice of Calvary, nor, therefore, any Eucharist, just an intention or vague imitation of Eucharist - a “memorial”, at best.
The problem with evangelicals is that, reading poorly, they cling to the immediate and apparent meaning of the text, instead of understanding its internal logic.
PS: I couldn't find the video with english subtitles, but in short, Ricardo sends the bleeding wafer to one of the best doctors in the USA (who, by the way, is an atheist) without telling him what it was about, and the doctor notes that the blood was from some 'patient' who was in agony of pain, with difficulty breathing. He also identified that the blood came precisely from the heart.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 3, 2020 22:45:54 GMT
The most notable in such videos, explanations, etc, as for me, is that there is one, two (rarely) experts and he (or they) explains the phenomenon from his point of view. It's kinda similar to mystiques' researches like Meister Eckhart revelations or sorta.
For many outer people it doesn't sound verily, for the inner circles it almost always means something.
And, actually, at least we can say that some truths are truth for narrower circles, not for all the people. Philosophers like Plato or Plotinus said something like that (but I guess I'm not sure; perhaps, instead of Plato it was Socrates, and Plotinus was toward some mysticism).
Christ was talking about our closest friends and neighbours. He didn't talked about the humanity. So, from my point of view I should care about my neighbours more, than about all the people. And that's why more narrow news from my friends should be maintained as more relevant for me. From such a perspective, this doctor's words might be taken as a fact.
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johnbc
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Post by johnbc on Oct 3, 2020 23:00:48 GMT
That is relativistic nonsense, truth is universal and absolute. Even if you say that there isn't truth, this statement itself is truth. If you want to know the truth, here is my advice: first, study the most obvious and blatant things (Metaphyshics, Plato) and then you can go down, observing the more specific ones (Aristotle, Galileo, Quantum Theory, in that order).
Also, Ricardo was an atheist, I forgot to mention.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 4, 2020 0:31:13 GMT
I dislike Luther the most personally. Calvin is still so wrong but I think he makes only a little more sense than Luther. Either way I feel that they only wanted their own following or glory like Jim Jones (think that's the cult leader) and cared 0% about God.
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Post by joustos on Oct 4, 2020 1:58:25 GMT
I have no idea as to how blood could ooze or come from a piece of bread or from a clay statue, but I have no reason to believe that, on some occasions, blood comes from a real body of Jesus. The quoted Jesus spoke of bread as being his body, and of wine as being his blood. So, by Body [or Soma] he meant "flesh and bones", not a Living body ( which essentially consists of flesh, bones, blood and water). In speaking of the crucified Jesus, the evangelists said that his body was pierced, and that blood as well as water came from it. So, they were talking about his living organisms (which contained blood and water). In the Last Supper, Jesus actually talked about his corpse and his blood. So, if transmutations occur, they are transmutations of bread into the dead body of Jesus, and transmutations into his spilled (not circulating) blood. So, he who ingests these non-living things cannot acquire life or divine/immortal life. (Gospel-writers, who were Greeks, concocted this eucharistic episode from their knowledge of the ancient Eleusinian Mystery (Rite) in which mystics partook of bread (processed grains, offsprings of the divine Demeter) and wine (believed to be the blood of divine Dionysos.) The mystics, females and males, engaged in this rite in order to acquire immortality, whereas the Orphics believed they had an immortal soul by nature -- which Plato set out to demonstrate.
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johnbc
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Post by johnbc on Oct 4, 2020 2:55:57 GMT
If the body and blood of the Eucharist were only images, instead of designating the real sacrifice of the Calvary, they would certainly be the most grotesque figure of speech in universal literature. To interpret them in this way is to reduce Christ to a competitor of the Marquis de Sade.
The analogy between cannibalism and the Eucharist is superficial and only apparent. It's a stupid idea from Gurdjieff that Girard copied as an impression without any reflection. In no cannibalistic rite does the victim remain alive and present while cannibals eat their flesh and blood. Much less remains alive and present throughout the ages, growing in breads and sips of wine everywhere. Cannibalism is killing and eating a human being. In the Eucharist you do not eat the body and drink the blood of a dead person, but of the Living Christ. Body is presence, blood is life. Christ's body is omnipresent and his blood is infinite. You can eat and drink at will, which will not end. It was not Christ who imitated cannibalism. Cannibalism - like all magic, in fact - is a primitive, nebulous, caricatural and crude preview of a real divine mystery. When Jesus said, "Take and eat all of you," He knew that His disciples would acquire the reputation of anthropophagi. The ugliest image hid the most beautiful and sublime of mysteries. The Roman world was frightened, then curious, then dazzled, and finally a believer. It is the strength of divine scandal. The ability that Jesus' enemies have to scandalize Christian souls is NOTHING compared to the Christian's strength to scandalize worldly souls.
Moral preaching doesn't work, quince sticks don't work, psychology doesn't work, tolerance and intolerance are the same crap, only one thing in the world works: it's called EUCHARIST. It is not ‘Jesus’ in the abstract, a merely verbal Jesus accompanied by hysterical visions. It is the Jesus who came in the flesh and who IS IN BREAD AND WINE from the Eucharist. Only this works, only this prevents humans from becoming wolves and vampires. This alone ensures the presence of good in the world. A life without the Eucharist is a permanent invitation to illusion.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 4, 2020 8:12:08 GMT
That is relativistic nonsense, truth is universal and absolute. Even if you say that there isn't truth, this statement itself is truth. If you want to know the truth, here is my advice: first, study the most obvious and blatant things (Metaphyshics, Plato) and then you can go down, observing the more specific ones (Aristotle, Galileo, Quantum Theory, in that order). Also, Ricardo was an atheist, I forgot to mention. Ok, you can call it whatever you like to, but that Ricardo's revelations doesn't ring any bells. It is his subjective opinion, no matter if he's an atheist or a believer. I agree on that relative true is something weird, and at the same time it is. If waters in pounds are not frozen now, but they will it Winter, it's both true and false claim they are frozen. It depends on time perspective. Some things are the same. Now it's a question of not exactly the matter of a miracle – Ricardo hasn't explained it scientifically objective – but it doesn't mean it is not miracle. When Thomas hadn't believed to Christ that it was his Teacher, he wanted to put his fingers into the wounds and only then he believed. Contrary the myrrh-bearing women from the Gospels did believe to an angel about Christ had resurrected. But it doesn't mean Christ had been or had not been resurrected, it meant Christ had been resurrected for the women and had not for Thomas, till he checked. When I introduce correction to my statement, U usually get it be narrower; the same happens even to truth statement: "water boils at 100°" "water boils at <100° when pressure <750 mm"
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