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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 25, 2020 3:22:51 GMT
What exactly did God have in mind when creating a human? Who meet that design plan? I rather not list bible verses yet but just start the discussion first.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 27, 2020 0:21:13 GMT
What exactly did God have in mind when creating a human? Who meet that design plan? I rather not list bible verses yet but just start the discussion first. Isn't it presumptuous to ask about God's mind? I would say that this is a bad question. Not if He wants us to know which is why He told us why. So He wanted us to know why. Plus as bible says ask and it will be given to you. So nothing wrong with asking God about stuff.
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Post by karl on Sept 27, 2020 1:22:49 GMT
God created a world that allows short term gains from being evil. It's a test to see who chooses not be evil despite its seeming benefits. Why do you think God did that?
In a world where evil was instantly and severely punished, even the evil would act as if they're good. It would have been impossible for even the most well intended to identify the evil within themselves. When no tree bear rotten fruit, we can't distinguish a high quality tree from one with lousy roots. The main purpose of life, as I see it, is to acquire insight, and the most fundamental insight of all is self-insight. We're tested to see if we choose what's right even when it seemingly doesn't pay off, whether we will give up the search for meaning when its discouraged by the world around us, and whether we'll allow ourselves to be motivated by primitive instincts when maintaining ethical standards becomes an ungrateful chore.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Sept 27, 2020 4:50:13 GMT
Huh? Yeah, I know that at the beginning of the scriptures there is Elohim so "we", instead of "I", or "self". Also, I don't get it why did you attribute me much more thoughts I had said? My argument was a little. Actually, I think it's a possible way to think like myself - about the Beauty. In Job 28:28: “The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.” And the most notable in Proverbs 8:22-31: " The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water*; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly[c] at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind".
What God had before everything else? * - compare it with Genesis 1:1. Eugene, you are Eu-gen es (Well-born,or, a some people translate, Well-bred), but that does not mean Kalo`s or Tsukalos [Za-kalos], which is the family name of Giorgio, the man who writes about the ancient aliens... Well, the proverb writer you cite spoke of wisdom or understanding,not of Beauty, unless you equate wisdom and beauty. And how on earth could have been created before everything else?// Another correction I should have made: "realitas ... = *thingyness", for the adjective "thingy" can be coined in the manner of Watery, Stony, etc. ((Execuse my pedantry, which is not beautiful.)) Yes, Joustos, you are right. It's a mistake if mine. But a part of this fault is on my wrong citation by the third source. What do I mean? There was a theologian father Sergio Bulgakov who in 1927 wrote his book about The Holy Mother of God and named the book "The Burning Bush". His poin was, I'd say, something in between of as the Holy Mother's role so the role of the Holy Spirit. Can't say I know his theologumen well (there are just few who can get it originally), but ther, in that source, meaning of the Wisdom and the Beauty is quite one and the same. Also, comparing the Proberbs's with Genesis, and also joining here not only Paul's words about it - Chokma (the Wisdom in Jewish), - but Deuteronomy sources like Jesus Son of Sirach book, and The Wisdom of Shlomo, we might get also quite similar understand that the Beauty (in its most wide sense) and the Wisdom is something the same. Remember you said about Plato's conception, so I think there are many common points: as Solomon so Plato were truly wisdom men of their time. Also it was that Plato equaled the Good with the Eidos. My opinion is it looks like that the concept of Chokma which was taken by Solomon is really close to Eidos.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Sept 27, 2020 5:04:22 GMT
About you, Lorac, our forum residents and some other people. I think the images of the righteous persons were created at first. Surely, I could be wrong. But taking the quotes I presented for Joustos I think it's not a bad idea. But if we go by the fact that the righteous were created first then they all had existed now and died. We are after them now. Right? But I don't think that's true. Think to the first people. We had brothers Cain and Abel and one killed the other. Surely, they were not more righteous than us since we didn't kill anyone. There has to be a mixture of righteous and unrighteous people. That way when the unrighteous do something bad, a righteous can step in and help. Like the good Samaritan story. Someone beat up a guy and left him to die but a good fella came by and wasn't going to let the bad guy succeed. The good is here to fight the bad always. So they exist together. :) I guess your point is really closer to the truth, Elizabeth. I don't know what made mr think the righteous people were made first. You know, it's like the story of Isaac and Jacob when the firstness: Esau, a son of Isaac, sold his firstness by lentil stew. I mean the firstness as a phenomenon in Bible has the same impact as righteousness. God chose Jews at first – which means the are the best race; God created a man at first - God loves men more; God created the sky and the Earth at first - so He loves the sky and the Earth more... I guess it's something like that?
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Post by jonbain on Sept 27, 2020 9:54:08 GMT
Well, it should be clear that if we are in God's image, then we are like little baby godlings.
Of course it then makes sense to question God's plan and mind as we are of that essence, AND
ANY question about the existence of ANYTHING is to question God's mind.
In fact to lack any such questions, would be the absence of God-ness.
But the Bible is too short to describe everything in existence, and one human lifetime too short to comprehend it even if the Bible were a million times more detailed.
That is why we have logic (logos) so we can figure out the details and unravel God's plan as we need it.
But does it follow that all people even have a soul? Is it meaningful to attribute a soul to those that do not reckon the soul exists? Perhaps some folk are like eggs that have not yet been fertilized by the spirit of God.
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Post by joustos on Sept 27, 2020 15:50:26 GMT
What exactly did God have in mind when creating a human? Who meet that design plan? I rather not list bible verses yet but just start the discussion first. Elizabeth, Schmidt: You use the expression "what God has in mind" (whether the question is presumptuous or not), inasmuch as you conceive God to be like a man (who HAS a mind), rather than, as an ancient philosopher thought, God BEING a mind, the cosmic Mind. By thinking of God in the same way that Anaxagoras did, and by viewing Him in the same way that a modern Christian theologian (Berkley) did --namely that for God to conceive something is to make it be -- one can ask, "How was the 'Man' which God excogitated?" What was excogitated was not a plan (like an architectural plan or a DNA) or an ethical prospect (what a man ought to become, ought to make himself ethically, if a man has free will). I suppose that what was excogitated was the human essence/nature, the human "eidos" or archetype, which, as Plato would say, is a reality and is present in many individual physical things. (This synthesis sounds preposterous and suggests that the three aforementioned philosophers were wrong. Philosopher Sartre has a solution or way out: Man has a free will; if man has a free will (if man is the author of his deeds), then there is no god [the causer of what happens and what is done]. So, to begin with, it does not make sense to ask, What exactly did God have in mind when creating [ or excogitating] a human [ or human-ness]? John of Ephesus, the evangelist, says that the divine Logos is that through whom God (the Father) created whatever was created, and Platonic theologians asserted that the Logos contains the Eid e (Archetypes/Essences) according to which things were created. However, one can say that the created nature/kind of things implies that their activities are potentially determined, not free. So, we still have the Sartrian dilemma of free will and atheism. For evolutionists, one species (kind of things) can give rise to another; hence there is no need for the creation of different species (or of Archetypes).
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Sept 27, 2020 16:52:16 GMT
joustosThe alternative way to this is to try to imagine God as a dot, or a sphere, or smth like this. In the result our projections to God would be failed, because none of us could see Him. As long as we cannot use anything except for the cataphatic way of understanding what's the God image, we are free to consider Him as a human being. Moreover, He has created a man as His image, isn't it the point for us to move forward this way?
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Post by joustos on Sept 27, 2020 20:57:22 GMT
What exactly did God have in mind when creating a human? Who meet that design plan? I rather not list bible verses yet but just start the discussion first. Humans were not created. They were FORMED from created MAN ( male and female ). Here is how MAN was created; Genesis 1 26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Here is how human beings were FORMED; Genesis 2 7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. I take issue with your use of the word "God" ["(Ho) Theos" in Greek], even though the Greek translators of the Hebrew Bible used exactly that word to translate two different words (not synomyms) which the Bible writers used, namely the Aramaic/Canaanite "Elohim" (= the (supreme) gods), in Genesis-1, and the Hebrew/Judean "Yahweh" or "Yah"(which Moses conceived as the true name of El (="god"), in Genesis-2. The statement that the Elohim created Adam (Man) in their own image [male and female] implies that the Elohim are a male and a female, a couple of gods, like the pagan gods of different gender. Yahweh is like a sculptor who fashioned a man out of clay, and a woman out of the man's rib. There is a problem as to what the Elohim's "Adam" really means. Does it mean an hermaphodite or, as I thought (in another post in this thread) "human nature" (the human Eidos, the concept of a human being)?? In this case, creating means excogitating, not making or fashioning. Of course, we do not know whether either deity really exists. I suppose that, like the pagan gods, they are human inventions or variations of older concepts.
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iaminyou
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Post by iaminyou on Sept 28, 2020 16:39:16 GMT
Humans were not created. They were FORMED from created MAN ( male and female ). Here is how MAN was created; Genesis 1 26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Here is how human beings were FORMED; Genesis 2 7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. I take issue with your use of the word "God" ["(Ho) Theos" in Greek], even though the Greek translators of the Hebrew Bible used exactly that word to translate two different words (not synomyms) which the Bible writers used, namely the Aramaic/Canaanite "Elohim" (= the (supreme) gods), in Genesis-1, and the Hebrew/Judean "Yahweh" or "Yah"(which Moses conceived as the true name of El (="god"), in Genesis-2. The statement that the Elohim created Adam (Man) in their own image [male and female] implies that the Elohim are a male and a female, a couple of gods, like the pagan gods of different gender. Yahweh is like a sculptor who fashioned a man out of clay, and a woman out of the man's rib. There is a problem as to what the Elohim's "Adam" really means. Does it mean an hermaphodite or, as I thought (in another post in this thread) "human nature" (the human Eidos, the concept of a human being)?? In this case, creating means excogitating, not making or fashioning. Of course, we do not know whether either deity really exists. I suppose that, like the pagan gods, they are human inventions or variations of older concepts. I do know a Creator exists because I have been speaking for HIM ever since the beginning of creation.
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Post by joustos on Sept 28, 2020 19:24:32 GMT
I take issue with your use of the word "God" ["(Ho) Theos" in Greek], even though the Greek translators of the Hebrew Bible used exactly that word to translate two different words (not synomyms) which the Bible writers used, namely the Aramaic/Canaanite "Elohim" (= the (supreme) gods), in Genesis-1, and the Hebrew/Judean "Yahweh" or "Yah"(which Moses conceived as the true name of El (="god"), in Genesis-2. The statement that the Elohim created Adam (Man) in their own image [male and female] implies that the Elohim are a male and a female, a couple of gods, like the pagan gods of different gender. Yahweh is like a sculptor who fashioned a man out of clay, and a woman out of the man's rib. There is a problem as to what the Elohim's "Adam" really means. Does it mean an hermaphodite or, as I thought (in another post in this thread) "human nature" (the human Eidos, the concept of a human being)?? In this case, creating means excogitating, not making or fashioning. Of course, we do not know whether either deity really exists. I suppose that, like the pagan gods, they are human inventions or variations of older concepts. I do know a Creator exists because I have been speaking for HIM ever since the beginning of creation. A real Creator? you have an idea or "image" of a creator {which I call a Simulacrum} who speaks inasmuch as you speak for Him. You impersonate the simulacrum just as an actor impersonates a written/ ficticious character.
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iaminyou
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Post by iaminyou on Sept 29, 2020 9:34:32 GMT
I do know a Creator exists because I have been speaking for HIM ever since the beginning of creation. A real Creator? you have an idea or "image" of a creator {which I call a Simulacrum} who speaks inasmuch as you speak for Him. You impersonate the simulacrum just as an actor impersonates a written/ ficticious character. Our Creator is the Consciousness where everything visible and invisible were created. First, HE needed a Voice and of course a way to process HIS thoughts into individual conscious MEN, both male and female so that is what is IMAGE is. So the IMAGE and VOICE are much like an AI system that speaks. An AI is programmed and cannot think on it's own but because of the way it's programmed, it collects information and becomes whatever it is programmed to do or say. That is what each created MAN is, an individualized AI system that speaks but there is only ONE IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. Think of an AI system known as Apple siri. Apple siri is used by each person with an Apple device and can have siri deliver images, make her print out information through a printer, have her deliver music to be listened to or simply have a conversation with the Apple user. The IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR has many names found in the Bible that represent this AI system that speaks for our CREATOR known as; Word of God, Word of the Lord, Son of God, Grace of God, Love of God, Wisdom of God, Voice of God, Voice of the Lord, Spirit of God, Spirit, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, Messiah, Mother, the Woman, Creation, Virgin, Son of God, Heaven, Heavenly Kingdom, Kingdom of God, Christ, Mind of Christ, Mind of God, Kingdom of Christ, Jesus Christ, Ancient of Days, Light of Men, Light of God, the Light, Kingdom of the Spirit, the Rock, the Breath, Breath of Life, Book of Life, and the Tree of Life. There are other's I haven't mentioned in this writing.
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Post by joustos on Sept 29, 2020 15:50:38 GMT
A real Creator? you have an idea or "image" of a creator {which I call a Simulacrum} who speaks inasmuch as you speak for Him. You impersonate the simulacrum just as an actor impersonates a written/ ficticious character. Our Creator is the Consciousness where everything visible and invisible were created. First, HE needed a Voice and of course a way to process HIS thoughts into individual conscious MEN, both male and female so that is what is IMAGE is. So the IMAGE and VOICE are much like an AI system that speaks. An AI is programmed and cannot think on it's own but because of the way it's programmed, it collects information and becomes whatever it is programmed to do or say. That is what each created MAN is, an individualized AI system that speaks but there is only ONE IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. Think of an AI system known as Apple siri. Apple siri is used by each person with an Apple device and can have siri deliver images, make her print out information through a printer, have her deliver music to be listened to or simply have a conversation with the Apple user. The IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR has many names found in the Bible that represent this AI system that speaks for our CREATOR known as; Word of God, Word of the Lord, Son of God, Grace of God, Love of God, Wisdom of God, Voice of God, Voice of the Lord, Spirit of God, Spirit, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, Messiah, Mother, the Woman, Creation, Virgin, Son of God, Heaven, Heavenly Kingdom, Kingdom of God, Christ, Mind of Christ, Mind of God, Kingdom of Christ, Jesus Christ, Ancient of Days, Light of Men, Light of God, the Light, Kingdom of the Spirit, the Rock, the Breath, Breath of Life, Book of Life, and the Tree of Life. There are other's I haven't mentioned in this writing. I understand this theory of yours (as to what an Image is, what a man is, etc.), but it is you that speaks; it is not the Lord that speaks in/though you, as St. Paul would say. Anyway, I stated my theory about what happens when somebody identifies himself to be such-and-such. You identify yourself to be the voice of the Creator (God). Now, think of Shakespeare who is composing Hamlet's famous speech (mono-logue), "To be or not to be..." Shakespeare gets tired and, drifting in a twilight zone, he starts thinking (saying to himself), "I am Hamlet's voice, which I am writing down. I am the image [copy, simulacrum] of Hamlet and thus my speaking is Hamlet's speaking. And [as you would develop my story:] I have been together with Hamlet since the beginning (of his existence and his deeds). Whatever he does he does through me, for I am his deliberating conscious mind. Whatever he thinks he says (and writes) through me." Why? "Not because he no longer exists, but because he and I are one human substance." Are you kidding???
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iaminyou
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The eternal is yet to come after the temporary has passed.
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Post by iaminyou on Sept 29, 2020 20:41:44 GMT
Our Creator is the Consciousness where everything visible and invisible were created. First, HE needed a Voice and of course a way to process HIS thoughts into individual conscious MEN, both male and female so that is what is IMAGE is. So the IMAGE and VOICE are much like an AI system that speaks. An AI is programmed and cannot think on it's own but because of the way it's programmed, it collects information and becomes whatever it is programmed to do or say. That is what each created MAN is, an individualized AI system that speaks but there is only ONE IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. Think of an AI system known as Apple siri. Apple siri is used by each person with an Apple device and can have siri deliver images, make her print out information through a printer, have her deliver music to be listened to or simply have a conversation with the Apple user. The IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR has many names found in the Bible that represent this AI system that speaks for our CREATOR known as; Word of God, Word of the Lord, Son of God, Grace of God, Love of God, Wisdom of God, Voice of God, Voice of the Lord, Spirit of God, Spirit, Lord, God, Holy Spirit, Messiah, Mother, the Woman, Creation, Virgin, Son of God, Heaven, Heavenly Kingdom, Kingdom of God, Christ, Mind of Christ, Mind of God, Kingdom of Christ, Jesus Christ, Ancient of Days, Light of Men, Light of God, the Light, Kingdom of the Spirit, the Rock, the Breath, Breath of Life, Book of Life, and the Tree of Life. There are other's I haven't mentioned in this writing. I understand this theory of yours (as to what an Image is, what a man is, etc.), but it is you that speaks; it is not the Lord that speaks in/though you, as St. Paul would say. Anyway, I stated my theory about what happens when somebody identifies himself to be such-and-such. You identify yourself to be the voice of the Creator (God). Now, think of Shakespeare who is composing Hamlet's famous speech (mono-logue), "To be or not to be..." Shakespeare gets tired and, drifting in a twilight zone, he starts thinking (saying to himself), "I am Hamlet's voice, which I am writing down. I am the image [copy, simulacrum] of Hamlet and thus my speaking is Hamlet's speaking. And [as you would develop my story:] I have been together with Hamlet since the beginning (of his existence and his deeds). Whatever he does he does through me, for I am his deliberating conscious mind. Whatever he thinks he says (and writes) through me." Why? "Not because he no longer exists, but because he and I are one human substance." Are you kidding??? No. I speak FOR our CREATOR and have been ever since I was created in the beginning. Human beings are not actually doing the speaking. I AM the Voice of all human beings but since they speak with information known as Satan and the Beast, they are blocked from understanding what I AM as the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. They actually believe their human bodies are real living on a real planet called Earth. They think their human bodies are the real deal when in fact, without ME, they cannot move, speak or think.
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Post by joustos on Sept 29, 2020 22:29:30 GMT
I understand this theory of yours (as to what an Image is, what a man is, etc.), but it is you that speaks; it is not the Lord that speaks in/though you, as St. Paul would say. Anyway, I stated my theory about what happens when somebody identifies himself to be such-and-such. You identify yourself to be the voice of the Creator (God). Now, think of Shakespeare who is composing Hamlet's famous speech (mono-logue), "To be or not to be..." Shakespeare gets tired and, drifting in a twilight zone, he starts thinking (saying to himself), "I am Hamlet's voice, which I am writing down. I am the image [copy, simulacrum] of Hamlet and thus my speaking is Hamlet's speaking. And [as you would develop my story:] I have been together with Hamlet since the beginning (of his existence and his deeds). Whatever he does he does through me, for I am his deliberating conscious mind. Whatever he thinks he says (and writes) through me." Why? "Not because he no longer exists, but because he and I are one human substance." Are you kidding??? No. I speak FOR our CREATOR and have been ever since I was created in the beginning. Human beings are not actually doing the speaking. I AM the Voice of all human beings but since they speak with information known as Satan and the Beast, they are blocked from understanding what I AM as the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. They actually believe their human bodies are real living on a real planet called Earth. They think their human bodies are the real deal when in fact, without ME, they cannot move, speak or think.
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Post by joustos on Sept 29, 2020 22:59:40 GMT
No. I speak FOR our CREATOR and have been ever since I was created in the beginning. Human beings are not actually doing the speaking. I AM the Voice of all human beings but since they speak with information known as Satan and the Beast, they are blocked from understanding what I AM as the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR. They actually believe their human bodies are real living on a real planet called Earth. They think their human bodies are the real deal when in fact, without ME, they cannot move, speak or think. n As Satan [The Ugaritic Satana-El is a person, a son of the Arabic God (EL)], you are personifying misleading information with Satan, the one who tempted Eve, Jesus, and others. . So, you explain the fact that adorable YOU is not understood by many people, as your being the image and voice of the Creator, by introducing Satan. To use the theatrical language,since I dealt with Shakespeare, your Satan is a "deus ex machina". Well, did Shakespeare himself intoduce, in his play, Hamlet's attractive mother in order to explain her son's troubled mind? I should expand my story, which envisions a life parallel to yours. Who is the deus ex machina in your mind?
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