KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Apr 19, 2020 17:40:04 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 3:26:30 GMT
Those true worshippers do not have different doctrines. They have one and worship in spirit and truth. Obviously that means some or all the ones you listed are not part of that verse. God's only seeking certain kinds of people. They have same thing in common. They worship Him in spirit and truth. But its obvious that in Protestantism there are different doctrines. You can call a Presbyterian a true worshiper and a baptist a true worshiper, because they have something in common, but this does not negate their differences. If they are both true worshipers then they must be different branches of true worshipers because of their differences. You cannot say that the true worshipers do not have different doctrines, that is absurd. There are many sincere Presbyterians that believe in predestination, while Baptist don't. Presbyterians also don't believe in the death penalty while many Baptists do. Then there is the structure of each church government which is quite different. There are sincere worshipers in both denominations. They have different doctrines despite having some things in common. If the common denominator is the only thing that matters between denominations then why can't we include Orthodoxy and Catholicism into Protestantism because of their common denominators? Then I think you believe in this branch theory because Protestantism is like a whole bunch of different doctrines mixed together. But bible is clear. There's only one doctrine that's acceptible. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John:1:9 And we must reject anyone with a different docrine. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 John:1:10
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KGrim
Full Member
Coming back to Arktos...for a little while anyways...just to see how things are doing.
Posts: 442
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Country: USA
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Location: East Texas
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Age: 33 soon to be 34
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Post by KGrim on Apr 20, 2020 3:31:46 GMT
But its obvious that in Protestantism there are different doctrines. You can call a Presbyterian a true worshiper and a baptist a true worshiper, because they have something in common, but this does not negate their differences. If they are both true worshipers then they must be different branches of true worshipers because of their differences. You cannot say that the true worshipers do not have different doctrines, that is absurd. There are many sincere Presbyterians that believe in predestination, while Baptist don't. Presbyterians also don't believe in the death penalty while many Baptists do. Then there is the structure of each church government which is quite different. There are sincere worshipers in both denominations. They have different doctrines despite having some things in common. If the common denominator is the only thing that matters between denominations then why can't we include Orthodoxy and Catholicism into Protestantism because of their common denominators? Then I think you believe in this branch theory because Protestantism is like a whole bunch of different doctrines mixed together. But bible is clear. There's only one doctrine that's acceptible. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John:1:9 And we must reject anyone with a different docrine. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 John:1:10 I don't believe in branch theory. I'm merely demonstrated that for Protestantism branch theory is necessary. I'm Orthodox and for me there is only one doctrine acceptable and thats the Orthodox doctrine which is the doctrine of the apostles and of Christ. Your evading my arguement. Presbyterianism and Baptist have different doctrines. They both can't be right so which is it? You must pick one or the other or else be forced into accepting branch theory.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 3:52:23 GMT
Then I think you believe in this branch theory because Protestantism is like a whole bunch of different doctrines mixed together. But bible is clear. There's only one doctrine that's acceptible. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John:1:9 And we must reject anyone with a different docrine. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 John:1:10 I don't believe in branch theory. I'm merely demonstrated that for Protestantism branch theory is necessary. I'm Orthodox and for me there is only one doctrine acceptable and thats the Orthodox doctrine which is the doctrine of the apostles and of Christ. Your evading my arguement. Presbyterianism and Baptist have different doctrines. They both can't be right so which is it? You must pick one or the other or else be forced into accepting branch theory. I have already answered it. Protestantism is mixed with many doctrines. Only one doctrine is right. So that means many of them are wrong. No silly branch theory. Only one doctrine is true. It's just the worshippers God talked about. They bring the same doctrine that Christ taught. Those are the true worshippers. They're the true church. You're trying to put a name to them. God doesn't. There are many bad orthodox, Catholics, and protestants. The only one's who claim to be Christian and worship in spirit and truth are the one's with the doctrine of Christ. Just like it says.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 20, 2020 4:00:48 GMT
The doctrine of Christ talked about in the scriptures is not trivial things like whether you baptize by sprinkling water or dunking, or predestination vs Arminianism or a myriad of other small arguments that many denominations have had but the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Son of God for our sins.
If any small deviation of doctrine in any manner were to cause someone to be rejected as followers of Christ then both of you would be going to hell and I probably would be as well as the Bible is a book that can be quite hard to understand and will always lead to disagreements regarding doctrine.
Luckily it is not disagreements about those things that save a man but faith in Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection on the cross as payment for our sins. I believe that even Catholics for example may have a type of faith that will save them on the last day though they believe a lot of weird things.
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KGrim
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Coming back to Arktos...for a little while anyways...just to see how things are doing.
Posts: 442
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Country: USA
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Location: East Texas
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Age: 33 soon to be 34
Philosophy: Hesychasm
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Post by KGrim on Apr 20, 2020 4:02:09 GMT
I don't believe in branch theory. I'm merely demonstrated that for Protestantism branch theory is necessary. I'm Orthodox and for me there is only one doctrine acceptable and thats the Orthodox doctrine which is the doctrine of the apostles and of Christ. Your evading my arguement. Presbyterianism and Baptist have different doctrines. They both can't be right so which is it? You must pick one or the other or else be forced into accepting branch theory. I have already answered it. Protestantism is mixed with many doctrines. Only one doctrine is right. So that means many of them are wrong. No silly branch theory. Only one doctrine is true. It's just the worshippers God talked about. They bring the same doctrine that Christ taught. Those are the true worshippers. They're the true church. You're trying to put a name to them. God doesn't. There are many bad orthodox, Catholics, and protestants. The only one's who claim to be Christian and worship in spirit and truth are the one's with the doctrine of Christ. Just like it says. Okay. We've established that only one doctrine is right and Protestantism is mixed with many false doctrines. We're in agreement. Since you claim to be Protestant you must agree that you fall under a blanket term of false doctrines. If you reject these false doctrines then you must reject Protestantism. Its logical.
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KGrim
Full Member
Coming back to Arktos...for a little while anyways...just to see how things are doing.
Posts: 442
Likes: 238
Country: USA
Region: South East
Location: East Texas
Ancestry: Scotch-Irish
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Eastern Orthodox
Hero: Jesus
Age: 33 soon to be 34
Philosophy: Hesychasm
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Post by KGrim on Apr 20, 2020 4:06:59 GMT
The doctrine of Christ talked about in the scriptures is not trivial things like whether you baptize by sprinkling water or dunking, or predestination vs Arminianism or a myriad of other small arguments that many denominations have had but the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Son of God for our sins. If any small deviation of doctrine in any manner were to cause someone to be rejected as followers of Christ then both of you would be going to hell and I probably would be as well as the Bible is a book that can be quite hard to understand and will always lead to disagreements regarding doctrine. Luckily it is not disagreements about those things that save a man but faith in Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection on the cross as payment for our sins. I believe that even Catholics for example may have a type of faith that will save them on the last day though they believe a lot of weird things. The manner of baptism is not a trivial thing, but a holy sacrament. Doctrine and Dogma are important. But a small deviation from doctrine is not enough to condemn one to hell, IMO. You are right that the bible is a book hard to understand, but thats the reason why in Orthodoxy we have a second rule of faith: The Tradition of the Holy Fathers. I tend to think like you that even sincere Catholics will be saved by their faith, but I still maintain that the fullness of truth is only in the orthodox church and reject branch theory.
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Clovis Merovingian
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Posts: 2,693
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
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Region: The Deep South
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Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 20, 2020 4:18:49 GMT
The doctrine of Christ talked about in the scriptures is not trivial things like whether you baptize by sprinkling water or dunking, or predestination vs Arminianism or a myriad of other small arguments that many denominations have had but the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Son of God for our sins. If any small deviation of doctrine in any manner were to cause someone to be rejected as followers of Christ then both of you would be going to hell and I probably would be as well as the Bible is a book that can be quite hard to understand and will always lead to disagreements regarding doctrine. Luckily it is not disagreements about those things that save a man but faith in Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection on the cross as payment for our sins. I believe that even Catholics for example may have a type of faith that will save them on the last day though they believe a lot of weird things. The manner of baptism is not a trivial thing, but a holy sacrament. Doctrine and Dogma is important. But a small deviation from doctrine is not enough to condemn one to hell, IMO. You are right that the bible is a book hard to understand, but thats the reason why in Orthodoxy we have a second rule of faith: The Tradition of the Holy Fathers. I tend to think like you that even sincere Catholics will be saved by their faith, but I still maintain that the fullness of truth is only in the orthodox church. I don't trust your Holy Fathers to interpret scripture anymore than I trust the average person on the street. Nothing separates your church fathers from me, you, Elizabeth or anyone else for that matter. Adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus was fighting against with the Pharisees.
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KGrim
Full Member
Coming back to Arktos...for a little while anyways...just to see how things are doing.
Posts: 442
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Country: USA
Region: South East
Location: East Texas
Ancestry: Scotch-Irish
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Hero: Jesus
Age: 33 soon to be 34
Philosophy: Hesychasm
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Post by KGrim on Apr 20, 2020 4:21:33 GMT
The manner of baptism is not a trivial thing, but a holy sacrament. Doctrine and Dogma is important. But a small deviation from doctrine is not enough to condemn one to hell, IMO. You are right that the bible is a book hard to understand, but thats the reason why in Orthodoxy we have a second rule of faith: The Tradition of the Holy Fathers. I tend to think like you that even sincere Catholics will be saved by their faith, but I still maintain that the fullness of truth is only in the orthodox church. I don't trust your Holy Fathers to interpret scripture anymore than I trust the average person on the street. Nothing separates your church fathers from me, you, Elizabeth or anyone else for that matter. Adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus was fighting against with the Pharisees. Therefore , brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. [2 Thes 2:15] Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. [1 Cor 11:2] These are not traditions made up by men but traditions that were handed down by the Apostles who have their authority in Jesus Christ. What separates the Holy Fathers from you and me is their bishopric office. Also, you said you wouldn't accept any man off the street to interpret scripture for you, but thats exactly what the Ethiopian in Acts did: So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" [Acts 8:30,31] Philip was an Apostle so he was qualified to guide the Ethiopian as are the bishops you received their office by apostolic succession are qualified to interpret scriptures. Though they are not infallible.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 6:04:21 GMT
I have already answered it. Protestantism is mixed with many doctrines. Only one doctrine is right. So that means many of them are wrong. No silly branch theory. Only one doctrine is true. It's just the worshippers God talked about. They bring the same doctrine that Christ taught. Those are the true worshippers. They're the true church. You're trying to put a name to them. God doesn't. There are many bad orthodox, Catholics, and protestants. The only one's who claim to be Christian and worship in spirit and truth are the one's with the doctrine of Christ. Just like it says. Okay. We've established that only one doctrine is right and Protestantism is mixed with many false doctrines. We're in agreement. Since you claim to be Protestant you must agree that you fall under a blanket term of false doctrines. If you reject these false doctrines then you must reject Protestantism. Its logical. You did not understand a word I said. Protestant has fake doctrines and one real one. So one must reject all but one. Just like Jesus didn't state the name there is no name. His followers are just those who worship in spirit and truth and teach the identical doctrine of His. That's all there is to it. And He makes it loud and clear that it's not any denomination as a whole because He says you won't know even if your spouse will go to heaven. It depends on the person not the denomination. As long as that person has the same doctrine as christ and is worshipping in spirit and in truth he is of God. Get the protestants out of your head please. Just make sure YOU are that true worshipper because there is no denomination that's a true worshipper. It's the individual not even spouses.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 6:10:21 GMT
I don't trust your Holy Fathers to interpret scripture anymore than I trust the average person on the street. Nothing separates your church fathers from me, you, Elizabeth or anyone else for that matter. Adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus was fighting against with the Pharisees. Therefore , brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. [2 Thes 2:15] Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. [1 Cor 11:2] These are not traditions made up by men but traditions that were handed down by the Apostles who have their authority in Jesus Christ. What separates the Holy Fathers from you and me is their bishopric office. Also, you said you wouldn't accept any man off the street to interpret scripture for you, but thats exactly what the Ethiopian in Acts did: So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" [Acts 8:30,31] Philip was an Apostle so he was qualified to guide the Ethiopian as are the bishops you received their office by apostolic succession are qualified to interpret scriptures. Though they are not infallible. You do know what the word "or" means right? It means you can do/have this or that. It gives you an option right? If a boss says you can have a raise or a new position what does that mean? It means both can be chosen and provide a benefit. So when you see this... Therefore , brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word OR our epistle. [2 Thes 2:15] That means you can go by the stuff handed down (traditions) if they're true OR you can just go by the epistle. And if epistle doesn't say to do something then you must not do it. That's the beauty of the "or". It's almost like both have same value no matter which option. Tradition=epistle. Go by what's written or speak of it by word of tradition.
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Post by fschmidt on Apr 20, 2020 6:12:52 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 6:14:02 GMT
The manner of baptism is not a trivial thing, but a holy sacrament. Doctrine and Dogma is important. But a small deviation from doctrine is not enough to condemn one to hell, IMO. You are right that the bible is a book hard to understand, but thats the reason why in Orthodoxy we have a second rule of faith: The Tradition of the Holy Fathers. I tend to think like you that even sincere Catholics will be saved by their faith, but I still maintain that the fullness of truth is only in the orthodox church. I don't trust your Holy Fathers to interpret scripture anymore than I trust the average person on the street. Nothing separates your church fathers from me, you, Elizabeth or anyone else for that matter. Adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus was fighting against with the Pharisees. Perfectly said.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 20, 2020 6:16:10 GMT
Bible only denomination. And thanks but I can't read orthodox stuff. Last time I read something that wasn't the bible and religious I had to toss it in the trash since it angered me from how it tried to put itself above God's Word.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,693
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Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Apr 20, 2020 6:44:09 GMT
I don't trust your Holy Fathers to interpret scripture anymore than I trust the average person on the street. Nothing separates your church fathers from me, you, Elizabeth or anyone else for that matter. Adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus was fighting against with the Pharisees. Therefore , brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. [2 Thes 2:15] Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. [1 Cor 11:2] These are not traditions made up by men but traditions that were handed down by the Apostles who have their authority in Jesus Christ. What separates the Holy Fathers from you and me is their bishopric office. Also, you said you wouldn't accept any man off the street to interpret scripture for you, but thats exactly what the Ethiopian in Acts did: So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" [Acts 8:30,31] Philip was an Apostle so he was qualified to guide the Ethiopian as are the bishops you received their office by apostolic succession are qualified to interpret scriptures. Though they are not infallible. Yes, remember the traditions/teachings of Paul, Peter, James and all the people whose books are in the Bible. These are people who've seen Jesus themselves and actually have their letters as scripture. Who are your Bishops compared to them? Paul, Peter, James and all of them were not Bishops, certainly not Bishops of the Orthodox Church. Also, I made the point that adding man made traditions to the word of God was what Jesus fought against the Pharisees for. These peoples' teachings are in the word of God. You can read them right there in your Bible. Your Bishop's teachings are not. I didn't say that I wouldn't accept any man off the street to interpret scripture for me; I said that any man off the street is as good as your Holy Fathers. Philip was a Christian teaching a non Christian the word of God. Many people do that who aren't Apostles.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 20, 2020 10:00:09 GMT
It is Protestantism that is the cause of ecumenism. I mean, if they didn't break up into small groups, then this phenomenon would not exist. The problem is that every Protestant is sure that his denomination is true ... but if we follow their history we will see that each major denomination was created by ex-Roman-Catholic priest. Even local Protestants disagree with each other. Clovis is under Baptist WASP culture, Elizabeth is influenced by Slavic Protestant tradition and so on.. in the 19th century in America, some of WASP who were sure that they believed only in the Bible created the Adventist cult. And yes, I forgot to mention ... the real classic Protestants are the Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and so on.
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