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Post by jonbain on Jan 30, 2020 0:26:09 GMT
Why do Christians typically reckon that reincarnation is not in keeping with Jesus' teaching. There is no explicit argument for or against it in the Bible. Moreover, as Jesus said "Before Adam, I am" then his soul would have to simply incarnate into human form at 0 A.D.
At another point John the Baptist is asked if he is actually one or other of the prophets. He answers that he is not. But he does not answer to say such is impossible. By simply answering not, he implies that such is an acceptable question.
As it is, I typically find that numerous Christians do accept reincarnation regardless of what the church has to say in its dogma.
Your thoughts?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 30, 2020 0:33:27 GMT
Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV) 27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
The Bible says that every man is appointed to die once and then comes the judgment in the Book of Hebrews. This is why Christians generally reject reincarnation.
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Post by KGrim on Jan 30, 2020 0:42:16 GMT
I fear I have no citation for this, but I found this quote by Origen:
“[Scripture says] ‘And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” and he said, “I am not”’ [John 1:21]. No one can fail to remember in this connection what Jesus says of John: ‘If you will receive it, this is Elijah, who is to come’ [Matt. 11:14]. How then does John come to say to those who ask him, ‘Are you Elijah?’—‘I am not’? . . . One might say that John did not know that he was Elijah. This will be the explanation of those who find in our passage a support for their doctrine of reincarnation, as if the soul clothed itself in a fresh body and did not quite remember its former lives. . . . [H]owever, a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of Elijah” (Commentary on John 6:7 [A.D. 229]). “As for the spirits of the prophets, these are given to them by God and are spoken of as being in a manner their property [slaves], as ‘The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets’ [1 Cor. 14:32] and ‘The spirit of Elijah rested upon Elisha’ [2 Kgs. 2:15]. Thus, it is said, there is nothing absurd in supposing that John, ‘in the spirit and power of Elijah,’ turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and that it was on account of this spirit that he was called ‘Elijah who is to come’” (ibid.).
“If the doctrine [of reincarnation] was widely current, ought not John to have hesitated to pronounce upon it, lest his soul had actually been in Elijah? And here our churchman will appeal to history, and will bid his antagonists [to] ask experts of the secret doctrines of the Hebrews if they do really entertain such a belief. For if it should appear that they do not, then the argument based on that supposition is shown to be quite baseless” (ibid.).
“Someone might say, however, that Herod and some of those of the people held the false dogma of the transmigration of souls into bodies, in consequence of which they thought that the former John had appeared again by a fresh birth, and had come from the dead into life as Jesus. But the time between the birth of John and the birth of Jesus, which was not more than six months, does not permit this false opinion to be considered credible. And perhaps rather some such idea as this was in the mind of Herod, that the powers which worked in John had passed over to Jesus, in consequence of which he was thought by the people to be John the Baptist. And one might use the following line of argument: Just as because the spirit and the power of Elijah, and not because of his soul, it is said about John, ‘This is Elijah who is to come’ [Matt. 11:14] . . . so Herod thought that the powers in John’s case worked in him works of baptism and teaching—for John did not do one miracle [John 10:41]—but in Jesus [they worked] miraculous portents” (Commentary on Matthew 10:20 [A.D. 248]).
“Now the Canaanite woman, having come, worshipped Jesus as God, saying, ‘Lord, help me,’ but he answered and said, ‘It is not possible to take the children’s bread and cast it to the little dogs.’ . . . [O]thers, then, who are strangers to the doctrine of the Church, assume that souls pass from the bodies of men into the bodies of dogs, according to their varying degree of wickedness; but we . . . do not find this at all in the divine Scripture” (ibid., 11:17). “In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures” (ibid., 13:1).
“But if . . . the Greeks, who introduce the doctrine of transmigration, laying down things in harmony with it, do not acknowledge that the world is coming to corruption, it is fitting that when they have looked the scriptures straight in the face which plainly declare that the world will perish, they should either disbelieve them or invent a series of arguments in regard to the interpretation of things concerning the consummation; which even if they wish they will not be able to do” (ibid.). - Origen
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 30, 2020 1:37:44 GMT
@kggrim I do agree that Elijah coming in the form of John the Baptist is an exception for the sake of prophecy.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 30, 2020 1:47:06 GMT
Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV) 27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" The Bible says that every man is appointed to die once and then comes the judgment in the Book of Hebrews. This is why Christians generally reject reincarnation. I second this! No reincarnation.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 30, 2020 1:48:10 GMT
@kggrim I do agree that Elijah coming in the form of John the Baptist is an exception for the sake of prophecy. What? John said he is NOT Elijah. Elijah and John are 2 separate beings.
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Post by KGrim on Jan 30, 2020 1:59:11 GMT
To clarify Origen says:"...a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of Elijah
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 30, 2020 2:06:03 GMT
@kggrim I do agree that Elijah coming in the form of John the Baptist is an exception for the sake of prophecy. What? John said he is NOT Elijah. Elijah and John are 2 separate beings. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11&version=NLT%C2%A0 Read this chapter for context and read verse 14. Jesus says that John the Baptist is Elijah who was prophesied in the Old Testament to return to prepare the way for the Messiah.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 30, 2020 2:08:11 GMT
To clarify Origen says:"...a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of ElijahThis is probably true.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 30, 2020 2:43:27 GMT
Why do Christians typically reckon that reincarnation is not in keeping with Jesus' teaching. There is no explicit argument for or against it in the Bible. Moreover, as Jesus said "Before Adam, I am" then his soul would have to simply incarnate into human form at 0 A.D. At another point John the Baptist is asked if he is actually one or other of the prophets. He answers that he is not. But he does not answer to say such is impossible. By simply answering not, he implies that such is an acceptable question. As it is, I typically find that numerous Christians do accept reincarnation regardless of what the church has to say in its dogma. Your thoughts? If everything exists in cycles then reincarnation is possible and can be equated to ths Catholic/Orthodox position of purgatory.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 30, 2020 2:50:42 GMT
Yes. Elijah was the prophet that said a person by the name of John would come who will be a messenger but John isn't the same person as Elijah. Elijah was only the prophet who predicted the coming of John. Ok all good here then!
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 30, 2020 3:47:30 GMT
Yes. Elijah was the prophet that said a person by the name of John would come who will be a messenger but John isn't the same person as Elijah. Elijah was only the prophet who predicted the coming of John. Ok all good here then! This issue has already been resolved/clarified for me by KGrim's post. There's no point in arguing further from my perspective.
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Post by jonbain on Feb 9, 2020 23:52:29 GMT
Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV) 27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" The Bible says that every man is appointed to die once and then comes the judgment in the Book of Hebrews. This is why Christians generally reject reincarnation. What then of Lazarus? Paul's word is not Jesus' word, nor John's either. But thanks for pointing that out, it had eluded me for sure.
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Post by jonbain on Feb 10, 2020 0:02:13 GMT
I also wonder at the phrasing, because the act of being 'reborn' entails what perhaps modern psychology terms the 'ego-death'. It is a transcendence from materialist awareness into spirituality, and in its true form can only really occur once, simply as a matter of logic. Its an idea which has a fairly wide narrative beyond psychology too, into shamanism. And I vaguely recall it mentioned in Eastern thought too.
The 'second death' is another idea, perhaps similar. In this sense death is also followed by judgement, and both: being reborn, and second death, are not the same as physical death.
As it is Paul's word is not directly that of Jesus. And Jesus does bring Lazarus back to life, did he never die again after that?
Lazarus is also not the only event of someone transcending past death, although that detail I cannot recall right now.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 10, 2020 0:02:34 GMT
Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV) 27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" The Bible says that every man is appointed to die once and then comes the judgment in the Book of Hebrews. This is why Christians generally reject reincarnation. What then of Lazarus? Paul's word is not Jesus' word, nor John's either. But thanks for pointing that out, it had eluded me for sure. Lazarus still had one death technically. Lots of people who died for a few seconds or minutes recalled a voice saying it wasn't their time to go yet. This is what I refer to as sleep. The in between stage of life and death. You're not awake to the natural world but not dead as in fully gone. Why do I use the term sleep? Because Jesus used this term to speak of a someone who didn't fully die. He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matthew 9:24 Then Jesus performed a miracle on her and Lazarus to wake them from their sleep because it's not time for them to die. They continued to live their FIRST life to experience their real FIRST death later.
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