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Post by greatestiam on Sept 9, 2019 17:15:56 GMT
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Post by greatestiam on Oct 12, 2019 15:45:15 GMT
To those who refuse to analyze his immoral ways.
I ask our friend to debate on morals just above.
I don't know if he will but almost all Christians run from such talks.
What kind of Christian are you? A run and hide type or an apologist?
Regards DL
First of all, New Testament's moral is an absurd. Especially it concerns Western versions of Christianity. (I'd even wide this thesis to All the Western moral is a big crap. Or similar versions.) There's no good way to search for your steps in life through gospels. And even the story it told - is nothing, but a big metaphor for us. God never speaks truly straight. Is it possible to imagine His speech directly? Who says it should be come "directly"? Is God a triangle or a square? I don't think that if there's a God He must look like a little cube, and speaking like a Sherlock dummy Holmes. No. All that it is is that Western's imagination runs quicklier than its sanity. The logic it uses completely plain and slope. It ties a noose itself round its necks. I don't think it might be relevant talk about any Western understaning of gospels. So, no place and rest for Western gospels. What may be useful there - I mean in gospels and numbered books like "An Egyptian Book of Dead", "Tibetan Bardo Todol" or "Necronomicon" (even being truly mystified by Lovecraft) - is something that lays underneath the real things. We must observe not on that soft surface, but deeply in. You are suggesting Gnosis. Good for you.
As a Gnostic Christian, I cannot disagree.
Regards DL
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Oct 21, 2019 21:30:35 GMT
First of all, New Testament's moral is an absurd. Especially it concerns Western versions of Christianity. (I'd even wide this thesis to All the Western moral is a big crap. Or similar versions.) There's no good way to search for your steps in life through gospels. And even the story it told - is nothing, but a big metaphor for us. God never speaks truly straight. Is it possible to imagine His speech directly? Who says it should be come "directly"? Is God a triangle or a square? I don't think that if there's a God He must look like a little cube, and speaking like a Sherlock dummy Holmes. No. All that it is is that Western's imagination runs quicklier than its sanity. The logic it uses completely plain and slope. It ties a noose itself round its necks. I don't think it might be relevant talk about any Western understaning of gospels. So, no place and rest for Western gospels. What may be useful there - I mean in gospels and numbered books like "An Egyptian Book of Dead", "Tibetan Bardo Todol" or "Necronomicon" (even being truly mystified by Lovecraft) - is something that lays underneath the real things. We must observe not on that soft surface, but deeply in. You are suggesting Gnosis. Good for you.
As a Gnostic Christian, I cannot disagree.
Regards DL However, there is a big difference between "nowadays ethics of Western" (or Eastern, or even Northern, Southern, North-Western... and so on ethics) and "the ways Western people did making its ethics". They work must be rewarded. They didn't do anything, they tried to get something. I can't object it. The truth can't be easily taking by reading, it's a matter of a long way of mistakes, suffering, pain... from the beginning to the end. There are no mistakes where are bad people. Sometimes the truth comes to us in our tear drops. The feeling of something important was being lacked is not so bad. Regards.
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Oct 21, 2019 21:43:05 GMT
Is deifying your understanding idol worship?
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 7, 2020 21:08:40 GMT
However, there is a big difference between "nowadays ethics of Western" (or Eastern, or even Northern, Southern, North-Western... and so on ethics) and "the ways Western people did making its ethics". I do not see our morals as being far from the rest of the world. As I understand from listening to Haight, an American moral philosophy prof, world wide about 70% of us describe our morals the same way. We all start with some kind of Golden Rule. Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 7, 2020 21:14:05 GMT
Is deifying your understanding idol worship? I would say so, yes. I think all Gnostic cults are basically perpetual seekers of the truth. That means that we might respect what we presently hold as our ideal, but are eager to learn something better so that we might continue our individual mental and moral journey. Regards DL
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Post by xxxxxxxxx on Jan 7, 2020 22:24:21 GMT
Is deifying your understanding idol worship? I would say so, yes. I think all Gnostic cults are basically perpetual seekers of the truth. That means that we might respect what we presently hold as our ideal, but are eager to learn something better so that we might continue our individual mental and moral journey. Regards DL So you worship your own intelligence as an idol then?
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 7, 2020 22:54:49 GMT
greatestiam , God forbids idols yes, but God also instructs Moses to created images: Exodus 36:35-37:9 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 35 And he made the veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; with cherubim skilfully worked he made it. 36 And for it he made four pillars of acacia, and overlaid them with gold; their hooks were of gold, and he cast for them four bases of silver. 37 He also made a screen for the door of the tent, of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen, embroidered with needlework; 38 and its five pillars with their hooks. He overlaid their capitals, and their fillets were of gold, but their five bases were of bronze. Making the Ark of the Covenant 37 Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side. 4 And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold, 5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark. 6 And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 7 And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, 8 one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. 9 The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim. Are these images that God commanded Moses idols? Of course not. What makes an idol and idol is that the idol itself is worshipped. Jesus is not an idol, but as the Apostle Paul states in Colossians 1:15, "He is the visible image of the Invisible God. The greek word for image is icon and icons are what we call in the Orthodox Church all of our images representing heavenly realities. These icons, or images, are not worshipped in of themselves but rather they are venerated and that veneration passes on the the prototype the icon represents. Icons are not Idols
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 8, 2020 13:30:48 GMT
However, there is a big difference between "nowadays ethics of Western" (or Eastern, or even Northern, Southern, North-Western... and so on ethics) and "the ways Western people did making its ethics". I do not see our morals as being far from the rest of the world. As I understand from listening to Haight, an American moral philosophy prof, world wide about 70% of us describe our morals the same way. We all start with some kind of Golden Rule. Regards DL I must admire this question is tough for me. This is a case, as I seem it, of "are morals the same for the long time?", "do we have objective moralities?", and so on. By experience of mine, people usually stick to their physical, mammal reflexes, instincts. Often it's seen how people are giving up; while, there can happen if someone starts playing role of the hero. Last ones seem to be little spooky, and seem psychos. Such universal rule as the golden one, yeah, it shows mostly; but, cultural cliches, common pieces of actions for a certain group of people press them down, and make them be formatted. I mean that it's also not rare to see a person who follows the rules of his parents, surround, tribe, friends. These particular cases I mentioned previously as "specific morality".
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Post by joustos on Jan 8, 2020 20:25:04 GMT
I do not idolize anything. Jesus is Yahweh and He is God. God is not an idol. An idol is anything but God it is written by God. I only pray and worship Him who is only in heaven and not some stupid earthly object. If you haven't learned this in my posts after all this time then not sure what to tell you.
"I do not idolize anything. Jesus is Yahweh and He is God."
You can see meek and mild Jesus using genocide and ordering the smashing of baby's heads against stones. Wow.
You are more depraved than I thought.
Regards DL
This discussion is taking many turns because you all forgot what "idol" originally meant. An idol [Eidolon] was a statue that resembled a real person (human or divine) and was believed to have some of the power of the original. So, some people worshipped idols in the belief that the statues or the paintings [icons] could perform miracles for the worshippers. //Following the pagan practice, all the early Christian churches made and presented idols or icons -- of Jesus. However, in the Eastern or Greek church there arose the iconclasts, who wanted to abolish the worship of icons and destroyed idols and icons of Jesus, saints, etc. One of the differences between the Eastern and the Western of Roman church was exactly about the attitude toward the use of "images". Idols or images were also forbidden in the Jewish tradition, and, in the West, when photography was invented, some of the Catholic officials condemned photography since, as they claimed,there can be a real image only of God, and this image is [the real] Jesus. In the customary world of theological inconsistency, nobody objected to the Genesis words of the Elohim: Let's make Man in our image (one male and another female), for this could have opened the truth about the Elohim, that is, that he Elohim were a couple (just as in the pagan world). If we follow the Bible, then humans are icons of the Supreme Gods ("Elohim" in Hebrew). Some Medieval theologians did not propose the worship of humans, but they formulated the conception of humans as a faint image of the divine Trinity, whereas the whole world was a still fainter image , like a footstep or Vestige in comparison of a real foot. Thus, the created world was seen as an allegory of God (though only one and male).// Readers of the Bible discover that, for the Hebrew people, there were other gods beside the aforementioned Elohim, or Yahweh (in Genesis-2). In fact, they thought that God (either El or Yahweh) decided to destroy mankind when the sons of various gods consorted with human females. Only Noah and his family were saved, according to a legend that explains why there are humans today. While he was drunk, he blessed some and cursed others...……..
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 8, 2020 21:18:06 GMT
joustos I agree with a lot of what you said, except your equivocation of idols with icons. There is a difference that depends on why the image was made, and how it is used, and what it represented. Not all images are idols, not all images are icons. Icons are not idols. Not all images are forbidden in the Jewish tradition. For example there are the cherubim on the ark of the covenant and the bronze serpent that Moses erected in the desert. These were not worshipped, but they were certainly objects of veneration. St John of Damascus on Holy Images and more
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 9, 2020 1:14:18 GMT
I would say so, yes. I think all Gnostic cults are basically perpetual seekers of the truth. That means that we might respect what we presently hold as our ideal, but are eager to learn something better so that we might continue our individual mental and moral journey. Regards DL So you worship your own intelligence as an idol then? That is not what I said. Can a seeker after god have an idol? No. I am not surprised when Christian readers get things ass backwards. Who else can idol worship a genocidal god while branding that prick as good? Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 9, 2020 1:19:18 GMT
greatestiam , God forbids idols yes, but God also instructs Moses to created images: Exodus 36:35-37:9 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 35 And he made the veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; with cherubim skilfully worked he made it. 36 And for it he made four pillars of acacia, and overlaid them with gold; their hooks were of gold, and he cast for them four bases of silver. 37 He also made a screen for the door of the tent, of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen, embroidered with needlework; 38 and its five pillars with their hooks. He overlaid their capitals, and their fillets were of gold, but their five bases were of bronze. Making the Ark of the Covenant 37 Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side. 4 And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold, 5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark. 6 And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 7 And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, 8 one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. 9 The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim. Are these images that God commanded Moses idols? Of course not. What makes an idol and idol is that the idol itself is worshipped. Jesus is not an idol, but as the Apostle Paul states in Colossians 1:15, "He is the visible image of the Invisible God. The greek word for image is icon and icons are what we call in the Orthodox Church all of our images representing heavenly realities. These icons, or images, are not worshipped in of themselves but rather they are venerated and that veneration passes on the the prototype the icon represents. Icons are not Idols Have you not seen all the graven images in your church? Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 9, 2020 1:26:17 GMT
I do not see our morals as being far from the rest of the world. As I understand from listening to Haight, an American moral philosophy prof, world wide about 70% of us describe our morals the same way. We all start with some kind of Golden Rule. Regards DL I must admire this question is tough for me. This is a case, as I seem it, of "are morals the same for the long time?", "do we have objective moralities?", and so on. By experience of mine, people usually stick to their physical, mammal reflexes, instincts. Often it's seen how people are giving up; while, there can happen if someone starts playing role of the hero. Last ones seem to be little spooky, and seem psychos. Such universal rule as the golden one, yeah, it shows mostly; but, cultural cliches, common pieces of actions for a certain group of people press them down, and make them be formatted. I mean that it's also not rare to see a person who follows the rules of his parents, surround, tribe, friends. These particular cases I mentioned previously as "specific morality". The immature will always take guidance from his peers. This is good. The mature will take his own guidance, should it be superior to the peers guidance, to the point of even breaking a law. Some law, as you well know from religious laws as well as some secular laws, are garbage and should never have been suggested. Religious laws are exceptionally vile and that is why no religion is advocating for theistic law of the land. Christians are immoral but not completely stupid as they reject most of their own god's laws. Regards DL
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 9, 2020 1:34:48 GMT
greatestiam , God forbids idols yes, but God also instructs Moses to created images: Exodus 36:35-37:9 Revised Standard Version (RSV) 35 And he made the veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; with cherubim skilfully worked he made it. 36 And for it he made four pillars of acacia, and overlaid them with gold; their hooks were of gold, and he cast for them four bases of silver. 37 He also made a screen for the door of the tent, of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen, embroidered with needlework; 38 and its five pillars with their hooks. He overlaid their capitals, and their fillets were of gold, but their five bases were of bronze. Making the Ark of the Covenant 37 Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. 2 And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it. 3 And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side. 4 And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold, 5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark. 6 And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 7 And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, 8 one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. 9 The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim. Are these images that God commanded Moses idols? Of course not. What makes an idol and idol is that the idol itself is worshipped. Jesus is not an idol, but as the Apostle Paul states in Colossians 1:15, "He is the visible image of the Invisible God. The greek word for image is icon and icons are what we call in the Orthodox Church all of our images representing heavenly realities. These icons, or images, are not worshipped in of themselves but rather they are venerated and that veneration passes on the the prototype the icon represents. Icons are not Idols Have you not seen all the graven images in your church? Regards DL Have you not seen the graven images on the ark of the covenant and the tapestries of the tabernacle of testimony?
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Post by greatestiam on Jan 9, 2020 1:36:19 GMT
"I do not idolize anything. Jesus is Yahweh and He is God."
You can see meek and mild Jesus using genocide and ordering the smashing of baby's heads against stones. Wow.
You are more depraved than I thought.
Regards DL
This discussion is taking many turns because you all forgot what "idol" originally meant. An idol [Eidolon] was a statue that resembled a real person (human or divine) and was believed to have some of the power of the original. So, some people worshipped idols in the belief that the statues or the paintings [icons] could perform miracles for the worshippers. //Following the pagan practice, all the early Christian churches made and presented idols or icons -- of Jesus. However, in the Eastern or Greek church there arose the iconclasts, who wanted to abolish the worship of icons and destroyed idols and icons of Jesus, saints, etc. One of the differences between the Eastern and the Western of Roman church was exactly about the attitude toward the use of "images". Idols or images were also forbidden in the Jewish tradition, and, in the West, when photography was invented, some of the Catholic officials condemned photography since, as they claimed,there can be a real image only of God, and this image is [the real] Jesus. In the customary world of theological inconsistency, nobody objected to the Genesis words of the Elohim: Let's make Man in our image (one male and another female), for this could have opened the truth about the Elohim, that is, that he Elohim were a couple (just as in the pagan world). If we follow the Bible, then humans are icons of the Supreme Gods ("Elohim" in Hebrew). Some Medieval theologians did not propose the worship of humans, but they formulated the conception of humans as a faint image of the divine Trinity, whereas the whole world was a still fainter image , like a footstep or Vestige in comparison of a real foot. Thus, the created world was seen as an allegory of God (though only one and male).// Readers of the Bible discover that, for the Hebrew people, there were other gods beside the aforementioned Elohim, or Yahweh (in Genesis-2). In fact, they thought that God (either El or Yahweh) decided to destroy mankind when the sons of various gods consorted with human females. Only Noah and his family were saved, according to a legend that explains why there are humans today. While he was drunk, he blessed some and cursed others...…….. Interesting. Sure there are various definitions for idols. Mine is more liker the religions that say that if you are looking at anything but a blank wall and are focused on something else from the religion, you are idol worshiping. You might want to study on the names of Elohim and Yahweh. The old Jewish god was androgynous, like most of the other gods of than area of the world. Christianity split him in two by making a rib woman idiotic creation add on. Christianity has vilified women and are Christianity's longest running victims of their foul misogynous teachings. Regards DL
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