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Post by fschmidt on Oct 31, 2017 4:28:04 GMT
Last time I was checking, the religion was the reason of the problem, not the solution. This deserves its own thread. You can make your argument first, then I will respond. But I suggest that you read Machiavelli's comments on the subject first, in his "Discourses" chapters 11-15. ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/machiavelli/niccolo/m149d/book1.html#book1.11
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Post by Διαμονδ on Dec 5, 2017 23:20:07 GMT
Its very possible to be good without god.. if someone requires a book to give them morality then they never had it to begin with. If that book teaches them that all others who don't prescribe to their chosen ideology are inferior and deserve death they should start with themselves. One only needs to look at the punishment for leaving islam and becoming an apostate to know it is not a choice. Here are some punishments simply for questioning it - might I remind people its the 21st century, not the 7th - there is no room for this bronze age ideology anymore. Elizabeth and I spoke of this in another thread - the church ( which denomination) does good for the community and uses its donations well, I have full respect for that. And I don't want to hear ' thats not the real islam ' because it is. You either follow the book or you don't. You said it is possible to be good without God...and I don't fully disagree. But what is good? Everyone will have there own definition of what is good. So who is right? The guys who hijacked the planes for 9/11 and killed a ton of people said they did a good thing. Some do honor killings and say it is a good thing. My point is...not all humans have the same idea of what is good and they may appear to be good in their own eyes only. I'm saying their needs to be a one way that is good that we can all agree on or accept. But in my opinion that way can only come from God. God is the ideal of law order in your understanding? Well, Yes, this is typical Christian perception of the world!
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Onetrack
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Post by Onetrack on Dec 6, 2017 3:24:07 GMT
Its very possible to be good without god.. if someone requires a book to give them morality then they never had it to begin with. If that book teaches them that all others who don't prescribe to their chosen ideology are inferior and deserve death they should start with themselves. One only needs to look at the punishment for leaving islam and becoming an apostate to know it is not a choice. Here are some punishments simply for questioning it - might I remind people its the 21st century, not the 7th - there is no room for this bronze age ideology anymore. Elizabeth and I spoke of this in another thread - the church ( which denomination) does good for the community and uses its donations well, I have full respect for that. And I don't want to hear ' thats not the real islam ' because it is. You either follow the book or you don't. You said it is possible to be good without God...and I don't fully disagree. But what is good? Everyone will have there own definition of what is good. So who is right? The guys who hijacked the planes for 9/11 and killed a ton of people said they did a good thing. Some do honor killings and say it is a good thing. My point is...not all humans have the same idea of what is good and they may appear to be good in their own eyes only. I'm saying their needs to be a one way that is good that we can all agree on or accept. But in my opinion that way can only come from God. I speak about myself, not a chaser, not a killer, not a thief, golden rule, treat people fair and judge them by their thoughts and actions..
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 6, 2017 3:29:28 GMT
You said it is possible to be good without God...and I don't fully disagree. But what is good? Everyone will have there own definition of what is good. So who is right? The guys who hijacked the planes for 9/11 and killed a ton of people said they did a good thing. Some do honor killings and say it is a good thing. My point is...not all humans have the same idea of what is good and they may appear to be good in their own eyes only. I'm saying their needs to be a one way that is good that we can all agree on or accept. But in my opinion that way can only come from God. I speak about myself, not a chaser, not a killer, not a thief, golden rule, treat people fair and judge them by their thoughts and actions.. Yes, all that is good. But not all might agree :/
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Onetrack
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Post by Onetrack on Dec 6, 2017 3:55:42 GMT
I speak about myself, not a chaser, not a killer, not a thief, golden rule, treat people fair and judge them by their thoughts and actions.. Yes, all that is good. But not all might agree :/ You and I are both atheists, I just go one god further. - Meaning.. religion is taught, those that are religious are a product of their location and upbringing. Children are not born with religion, they are taught it from their parents. I had a friend of mine, born into a decidedly mormon community, mormon parents, mormon grandparents, went to a mormon school, all his friends were mormon-went to a mormon church from a very young age, went on missions with other mormons... Told me he had checked out ' all of the worlds religions ' and to him mormonism was the best and the one true religion with the one true god. Same thing all religious people say - they just happened to be born into the one true religion without ever questioning it. Had be been born in Japan, most likely he'd be shinto, had he been born in russian I'd guess russian orthodox, had he been born in saudi arabia he would most certainly be muslim. Once you take a moment and stare at the night sky, you'll understand. Faith in something is a good thing, there is a vast difference between an atheist and an anti-theist. My mind can be accommodating to some proof, but until there is something thoroughly unexplainable I have a very hard time in believing there is a a magical invisible man living in the sky watching and judging you for everything you do 24/7.
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Onetrack
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Post by Onetrack on Dec 6, 2017 4:00:07 GMT
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 6, 2017 4:08:55 GMT
Yes, all that is good. But not all might agree :/ You and I are both atheists, I just go one god further. - Meaning.. religion is taught, those that are religious are a product of their location and upbringing. Children are not born with religion, they are taught it from their parents. I had a friend of mine, born into a decidedly mormon community, mormon parents, mormon grandparents, went to a mormon school, all his friends were mormon-went to a mormon church from a very young age, went on missions with other mormons... Told me he had checked out ' all of the worlds religions ' and to him mormonism was the best and the one true religion with the one true god. Same thing all religious people say - they just happened to be born into the one true religion without ever questioning it. Had be been born in Japan, most likely he'd be shinto, had he been born in russian I'd guess russian orthodox, had he been born in saudi arabia he would most certainly be muslim. Once you take a moment and stare at the night sky, you'll understand. Faith in something is a good thing, there is a vast difference between an atheist and an anti-theist. My mind can be accommodating to some proof, but until there is something thoroughly unexplainable I have a very hard time in believing there is a a magical invisible man living in the sky watching and judging you for everything you do 24/7. No, I'm not atheist. I'm Christian. But yea I get what you mean and they should not go by what they are brought up by. Like since I am slavic, I would be orthodox. But I'm not. I investigated it and it doesn't work for me. And I'm ok with that
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Onetrack
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Post by Onetrack on Dec 7, 2017 4:20:35 GMT
But yea I get what you mean and they should not go by what they are brought up by. Like since I am slavic, I would be orthodox. But I'm not. I investigated it and it doesn't work for me. And I'm ok with that There, much better - you investigated and came up with a conclusion - my family religion (on my mothers side) is dutch reform, and they are craaaaaazeeeeeee... So a big no thanks :D But I went to sunday school and all that, and I investigated it and it doesn't work for me. And I'm ok with that
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