|
Post by Elizabeth on Sept 23, 2018 19:56:11 GMT
Just as cute pair unknown and Eodnhoj7 share a thread to discuss philosophy together, so Dk and I plan to share our own discussion too. Please refrain from comments here. You can make your own threads based off stuff here for your own separate discussions.
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 22, 2018 2:42:45 GMT
Yes I agree though I thought you were looking for a verse, not a whole chapter but that's fine Looking at the context, we can see that two questions are raised, the first being if the Father had ever told His angels "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" and the second question being if the Father had ever told any of His angels "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son", but the obvious answer is no to both of these questions because they are found nowhere in scripture. Then in verse 6 it says "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten"...the firstbegotten being Christ, the Son of God..."into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."; He tells all the angels to worship His Son. Then in verse 8, as you highlighted, the Father says to the Son "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." So the Father is calling His Son God and saying that the throne is His for ever and ever. And then in verse 10 the Father says further to the Son "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands", calling Him Lord and saying He, the Son, laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens, further confirming that He is indeed God. I mean, if God the Father is telling God the Son that He is God then it must be absolutely true Also to point out in support of your last sentence, verse 4 says "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." making Jesus higher and more superior than the angels could ever be. Not only this, but to say that Jesus is an angel is to practice eisegesis, as nowhere in the Bible does it support the notion that Jesus is an angel, in fact, it says in Philippians 2:5-8, 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. ...we know angels cannot be equal with God because God created the angels, He created all things. So Jesus cannot be an angel because angels cannot be equal with God while in this passage it says Jesus was equal with God, meaning He is God. We can point back to so many verses that support this, especially in the gospel of John, including those where Jesus says He is the "I AM", the God of the Israelites, the one and only true God. Moreover, in verse 13 and 14 of Hebrews, these questions are asked, "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? " and "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"... the obvious answer to the first question is no because nowhere in scripture did God ever say to an angel that He will sit one of them on His right hand and make their enemies their footstool, and the answer to the second questions is a yes; Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. ...and from Hebrews 1 itself, Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Any comments? Well, it was mostly verse 8 that I was looking for so I made it in bold but then realized the whole chapter was interesting to post too But yeah in Hebrews the Father calls Jesus God. Not even a simile or anything but directly. And the Father wouldn't call anything else God since He hates idols and false gods. And Philippians is another interesting thing you posted. Philippians 2:5-8, 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. In verses 5 and 6 it also clearly states that Jesus is God. Then in verse 8 it uses a simile to say that He became "as" a man meaning that Jesus isn't really a man but became "as" one (simile) since He's really God and not man. And as we already discussed that Jesus/God formed the world before humans were yet made then how is Mary His mother when He made her? Impossible No angel and no human can compete against Jesus because He is God who created them all. And no human is more special than another human whether Mary or whoever since He doesn't favor anyone more than another in value. Agree? Yes, absolutely in verse 8 it uses simile by saying "being found in fashion as a man", and even in verse 7 it says "and was made in the likeness of men". We could point to 1 Timothy 3:16 as well, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."... and John 1:1-2, 14; 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This verse here in Romans 8:3 also uses simile, 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ...and then we also have Matthew 1:23, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. ...which correlates with this verse in Isaiah 7:14, 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. There is just so much in the Bible pointing at Jesus being God, it is very consistent throughout all of scripture. Absolutely no way Mary made Jesus or is the "Mother of God" as the Catholics and Orthodox like to believe, that is just ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous is that they also call her the "Queen of Heaven" even though in the Bible is says this, Jeremiah 7:17-19 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? ...yet the Catholics and Orthodox do it anyway! Outrageous! facepalm
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 22, 2018 2:53:49 GMT
Well, it was mostly verse 8 that I was looking for so I made it in bold but then realized the whole chapter was interesting to post too But yeah in Hebrews the Father calls Jesus God. Not even a simile or anything but directly. And the Father wouldn't call anything else God since He hates idols and false gods. And Philippians is another interesting thing you posted. Philippians 2:5-8, 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. In verses 5 and 6 it also clearly states that Jesus is God. Then in verse 8 it uses a simile to say that He became "as" a man meaning that Jesus isn't really a man but became "as" one (simile) since He's really God and not man. And as we already discussed that Jesus/God formed the world before humans were yet made then how is Mary His mother when He made her? Impossible No angel and no human can compete against Jesus because He is God who created them all. And no human is more special than another human whether Mary or whoever since He doesn't favor anyone more than another in value. Agree? Yes, absolutely in verse 8 it uses simile by saying "being found in fashion as a man", and even in verse 7 it says "and was made in the likeness of men". We could point to 1 Timothy 3:16 as well, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."... and John 1:1-2, 14; 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This verse here in Romans 8:3 also uses simile, 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ...and then we also have Matthew 1:23, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. ...which correlates with this verse in Isaiah 7:14, 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. There is just so much in the Bible pointing at Jesus being God, it is very consistent throughout all of scripture. Absolutely no way Mary made Jesus or is the "Mother of God" as the Catholics and Orthodox like to believe, that is just ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous is that they also call her the "Queen of Heaven" even though in the Bible is says this, Jeremiah 7:17-19 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? ...yet the Catholics and Orthodox do it anyway! Outrageous! facepalm Anyone honoring any queen of heaven will just anger God as He says. And only those who will end up in hell will see God's wrath upon them it says. God clearly said to love Him only by obeying Him and then loving everyone else as yourself not loving some more than others since we're all humans of equal value to God and each other. So loving someone as yourself means no one else has a higher reputation except God. That's not even angels since we can't bow to them or worship them but only take messages from God from them. Except no receiving messages from the other angels (fallen ones) which preach a different gospel which will be accursed and judged by the righteous later. Agree?
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 22, 2018 4:33:03 GMT
Yes, absolutely in verse 8 it uses simile by saying "being found in fashion as a man", and even in verse 7 it says "and was made in the likeness of men". We could point to 1 Timothy 3:16 as well, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."... and John 1:1-2, 14; 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This verse here in Romans 8:3 also uses simile, 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ...and then we also have Matthew 1:23, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. ...which correlates with this verse in Isaiah 7:14, 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. There is just so much in the Bible pointing at Jesus being God, it is very consistent throughout all of scripture. Absolutely no way Mary made Jesus or is the "Mother of God" as the Catholics and Orthodox like to believe, that is just ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous is that they also call her the "Queen of Heaven" even though in the Bible is says this, Jeremiah 7:17-19 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? ...yet the Catholics and Orthodox do it anyway! Outrageous! Anyone honoring any queen of heaven will just anger God as He says. And only those who will end up in hell will see God's wrath upon them it says. God clearly said to love Him only by obeying Him and then loving everyone else as yourself not loving some more than others since we're all humans of equal value to God and each other. So loving someone as yourself means no one else has a higher reputation except God. That's not even angels since we can't bow to them or worship them but only take messages from God from them. Except no receiving messages from the other angels (fallen ones) which preach a different gospel which will be accursed and judged by the righteous later. Agree? Totally agree All that you said is supported easily by scripture: Those who end up in hell will see God's wrath, Romans 5:8-9 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. God tells us to love Him by obeying Him, Matthew 22:37-38 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Love others as yourself, Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. ...this passage showing us who our neighbor is, Luke 10:25-37 25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. We are not to worship angels nor men, Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind Revelation 22:8-9 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Acts 10:25-26 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. If we receive a message from any spirit that is not the gospel of Christ then we should not accept it and the one who gave us the message will be put under a curse, Galatians 1:6-9 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. We will judge angels, 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 24, 2018 2:55:34 GMT
So next I think we should move into the topic of salvation What is Biblical salvation? It is deliverance. From what? Sin. The Bible declares that all have sinned, and anyone who says they have not sinned is deceived, Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The punishment for sin is death and all men are appointed to die, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Sin came into the world by man's disobedience to God, Romans 5:12-19 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. How do we save ourselves from the consequences of sin? We don't, we can't, only God can save us from our sins and He gave us a way that we must follow in order for Him to save us. This way to salvation is by faith in God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross, John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Romans 3:21-16 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Of course there are a lot more specifics and details to salvation, but I don't want to make my post too long, I could go on and on with scripture, so I'll stop here so we can get down to those specifics and details
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 24, 2018 5:28:54 GMT
So next I think we should move into the topic of salvation What is Biblical salvation? It is deliverance. From what? Sin. The Bible declares that all have sinned, and anyone who says they have not sinned is deceived, Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The punishment for sin is death and all men are appointed to die, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Sin came into the world by man's disobedience to God, Romans 5:12-19 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. How do we save ourselves from the consequences of sin? We don't, we can't, only God can save us from our sins and He gave us a way that we must follow in order for Him to save us. This way to salvation is by faith in God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross, John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Romans 3:21-16 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Of course there are a lot more specifics and details to salvation, but I don't want to make my post too long, I could go on and on with scripture, so I'll stop here so we can get down to those specifics and details Yup. I agree with all of it. But this free gift doesn't mean we just live however we want either. God made us to resemble Him in every way so if we are His then we must act like it so it requires work. There must be a clear difference between children of God and children of Satan. We must live in His image or else we are not His and didn't accept Him nor love Him. It's a work as we're reminded. And we must walk daily "in fear and trembling" to work on our salvation. Paul still reminds them about this work even though they have worked because they've obeyed. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Philippians 2:12 Because only those who obey Him get salvation... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Hebrews 5:9 And obeying Him is loving Him. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If ye love me, keep my commandments.John 14:15 It's not even a maybe he will but God say He WILL for sure keep them or else God won't dwell with him. God's children don't need to be told twice. They know they must resemble Him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.John:14:23 Plus the Holy Spirit is ONLY present in those who actually obey Him. Those who don't obey God don't have Him because they don't belong to God. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.Acts 5:32 And we get the Holy Spirit when we agree to obey Him and then we can be baptised with the Holy Spirit when we vow to follow Him forever in His image. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Ephesians 4:24 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11 So when you have put away your sins to choose Jesus it's when the Holy Spirit is given to you. To teach you, etc. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Corinthians 3:13 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts 2:38 So no Holy Spirit given unless you repent first. Period. God can't dwell in a sinner. He's not among the dead but among the living... And only those who received the Holy Ghost may be baptised.... This is to be baptised with the Holy Spirit .So, those who have the Holy Spirit (choose to obey Jesus) may not be forbidden to be baptised. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Acts 10:47 And simply saying that you believe without choosing to follow Jesus will not make the Holy Spirit come because you've not fully believed to decide to become in His image. These people need to learn how to get the Holy Spirit and need to want Him most of all. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Acts 19:2 Of course if we change our minds and not live by the Spirit anymore then it profits us nothing. We're reminded not to quench Him. Quench not the Spirit.1 Thessalonians 5:19 Agree?
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 26, 2018 4:22:38 GMT
So next I think we should move into the topic of salvation What is Biblical salvation? It is deliverance. From what? Sin. The Bible declares that all have sinned, and anyone who says they have not sinned is deceived, Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The punishment for sin is death and all men are appointed to die, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Sin came into the world by man's disobedience to God, Romans 5:12-19 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. How do we save ourselves from the consequences of sin? We don't, we can't, only God can save us from our sins and He gave us a way that we must follow in order for Him to save us. This way to salvation is by faith in God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross, John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Romans 3:21-16 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Of course there are a lot more specifics and details to salvation, but I don't want to make my post too long, I could go on and on with scripture, so I'll stop here so we can get down to those specifics and details Yup. I agree with all of it. But this free gift doesn't mean we just live however we want either. God made us to resemble Him in every way so if we are His then we must act like it so it requires work. There must be a clear difference between children of God and children of Satan. We must live in His image or else we are not His and didn't accept Him nor love Him. It's a work as we're reminded. And we must walk daily "in fear and trembling" to work on our salvation. Paul still reminds them about this work even though they have worked because they've obeyed. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Philippians 2:12 Because only those who obey Him get salvation... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Hebrews 5:9 And obeying Him is loving Him. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If ye love me, keep my commandments.John 14:15 It's not even a maybe he will but God say He WILL for sure keep them or else God won't dwell with him. God's children don't need to be told twice. They know they must resemble Him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.John:14:23 Plus the Holy Spirit is ONLY present in those who actually obey Him. Those who don't obey God don't have Him because they don't belong to God. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.Acts 5:32 And we get the Holy Spirit when we agree to obey Him and then we can be baptised with the Holy Spirit when we vow to follow Him forever in His image. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Ephesians 4:24 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11 So when you have put away your sins to choose Jesus it's when the Holy Spirit is given to you. To teach you, etc. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Corinthians 3:13 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts 2:38 So no Holy Spirit given unless you repent first. Period. God can't dwell in a sinner. He's not among the dead but among the living... And only those who received the Holy Ghost may be baptised.... This is to be baptised with the Holy Spirit .So, those who have the Holy Spirit (choose to obey Jesus) may not be forbidden to be baptised. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Acts 10:47 And simply saying that you believe without choosing to follow Jesus will not make the Holy Spirit come because you've not fully believed to decide to become in His image. These people need to learn how to get the Holy Spirit and need to want Him most of all. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Acts 19:2 Of course if we change our minds and not live by the Spirit anymore then it profits us nothing. We're reminded not to quench Him. Quench not the Spirit.1 Thessalonians 5:19 Agree? Yes, I agree with all that you said Salvation isn't given to us so we can go on living the way we want. Many people believe God's grace is a license to sin, but it definitely isn't. Paul makes it clear here when he says, Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? He is saying if we sin we are servants of sin and of death, but if we obey God then we are His servants and servants of righteousness. Paul also says earlier in Romans 6, Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. This is after baptism of course, but nonetheless we should not serve sin. Jesus says Himself here, John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And as Jesus said, we cannot serve two masters, Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. He speaks of putting your faith in money here in the context, but it applies to everything. If we put our faith in things other than God, we are not servants of God. It is said well here in James 1 also, James 1:21-25 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. It clearly says those who only listen to God's word continue going their own way. And here in James 2 as well, James 2:17-26 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. This passage is saying faith without works is a dead faith. It is a faith that is comes from the mouth, but not from the heart. It is, in other words, a lie. Faith without works is compared to a body without a spirit, which is a dead body. It also gives us the example of Abraham and how he showed his faith by the works he did. I mean, why would Abraham leave his country if he didn't believe what God said to him? He got up and left like God told him to do, he took action, it showed his faith, and that's the point being made here in James 2; our actions show our faith much more than our words could. And yes, we must obey Him and keep His commandments. Christ's command to his disciples was to follow him, Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And we follow Him because He is the way, the truth, and the life, John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Our ways are not going to save us from our sins, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Yes, the meaning of baptism is explained here in Romans 6, Romans 6 :1-12 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. At the beginning it says grace will not come to fruition if we continue in sin which should be enough for anyone to realize that God does not want us to go on living how we want to live. But continuing on, it explains that baptism is done in symbolism of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It says as Christ died, our old man, sinful flesh, dies and is crucified with Him, and we are buried with Him, but then raised from the dead with Him in newness of life, as a new man, and from then on we should not serve sin. If we die with Christ and believe on Him, we will live with Him, and sin will have no dominion over us anymore, so we are dead to sin and live how God wants us to and that is not by our own way, but by His way, by righteousness and not by sin. And what you said about the Holy Ghost I cannot explain any better, but you can see that it correlates well with the verses I quoted and explanations of them. Any comments?
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 28, 2018 6:13:11 GMT
Yup. I agree with all of it. But this free gift doesn't mean we just live however we want either. God made us to resemble Him in every way so if we are His then we must act like it so it requires work. There must be a clear difference between children of God and children of Satan. We must live in His image or else we are not His and didn't accept Him nor love Him. It's a work as we're reminded. And we must walk daily "in fear and trembling" to work on our salvation. Paul still reminds them about this work even though they have worked because they've obeyed. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Philippians 2:12 Because only those who obey Him get salvation... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Hebrews 5:9 And obeying Him is loving Him. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 If ye love me, keep my commandments.John 14:15 It's not even a maybe he will but God say He WILL for sure keep them or else God won't dwell with him. God's children don't need to be told twice. They know they must resemble Him. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.John:14:23 Plus the Holy Spirit is ONLY present in those who actually obey Him. Those who don't obey God don't have Him because they don't belong to God. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.Acts 5:32 And we get the Holy Spirit when we agree to obey Him and then we can be baptised with the Holy Spirit when we vow to follow Him forever in His image. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Ephesians 4:24 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11 So when you have put away your sins to choose Jesus it's when the Holy Spirit is given to you. To teach you, etc. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Corinthians 3:13 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Acts 2:38 So no Holy Spirit given unless you repent first. Period. God can't dwell in a sinner. He's not among the dead but among the living... And only those who received the Holy Ghost may be baptised.... This is to be baptised with the Holy Spirit .So, those who have the Holy Spirit (choose to obey Jesus) may not be forbidden to be baptised. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Acts 10:47 And simply saying that you believe without choosing to follow Jesus will not make the Holy Spirit come because you've not fully believed to decide to become in His image. These people need to learn how to get the Holy Spirit and need to want Him most of all. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Acts 19:2 Of course if we change our minds and not live by the Spirit anymore then it profits us nothing. We're reminded not to quench Him. Quench not the Spirit.1 Thessalonians 5:19 Agree? Yes, I agree with all that you said Salvation isn't given to us so we can go on living the way we want. Many people believe God's grace is a license to sin, but it definitely isn't. Paul makes it clear here when he says, Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? He is saying if we sin we are servants of sin and of death, but if we obey God then we are His servants and servants of righteousness. Paul also says earlier in Romans 6, Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. This is after baptism of course, but nonetheless we should not serve sin. Jesus says Himself here, John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And as Jesus said, we cannot serve two masters, Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. He speaks of putting your faith in money here in the context, but it applies to everything. If we put our faith in things other than God, we are not servants of God. It is said well here in James 1 also, James 1:21-25 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. It clearly says those who only listen to God's word continue going their own way. And here in James 2 as well, James 2:17-26 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. This passage is saying faith without works is a dead faith. It is a faith that is comes from the mouth, but not from the heart. It is, in other words, a lie. Faith without works is compared to a body without a spirit, which is a dead body. It also gives us the example of Abraham and how he showed his faith by the works he did. I mean, why would Abraham leave his country if he didn't believe what God said to him? He got up and left like God told him to do, he took action, it showed his faith, and that's the point being made here in James 2; our actions show our faith much more than our words could. And yes, we must obey Him and keep His commandments. Christ's command to his disciples was to follow him, Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And we follow Him because He is the way, the truth, and the life, John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Our ways are not going to save us from our sins, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Yes, the meaning of baptism is explained here in Romans 6, Romans 6 :1-12 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. At the beginning it says grace will not come to fruition if we continue in sin which should be enough for anyone to realize that God does not want us to go on living how we want to live. But continuing on, it explains that baptism is done in symbolism of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It says as Christ died, our old man, sinful flesh, dies and is crucified with Him, and we are buried with Him, but then raised from the dead with Him in newness of life, as a new man, and from then on we should not serve sin. If we die with Christ and believe on Him, we will live with Him, and sin will have no dominion over us anymore, so we are dead to sin and live how God wants us to and that is not by our own way, but by His way, by righteousness and not by sin. And what you said about the Holy Ghost I cannot explain any better, but you can see that it correlates well with the verses I quoted and explanations of them. Any comments? All great stuff and I agree. Now just want to discuss salvation, grace, and works and how they unite or work together. 1. Salvation Our salvation is in God/Christ alone. He decides whether to give salvation or not give it. We play no role in this matter. Here's a few verses out of many for this proof. And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise. 1 Chronicles 16:35 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? Psalm 27:1 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved. Psalm 62:2 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. Lamentations 3:26 We of course must work to obtain this salvation that He gives us. It's there but we must take it by working for it if we want it. It's an action that shows we want it. You need actions/proof to back up everything. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 So we and everyone else who wants God's salvation must obtain it. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 And of course to obtain it we must work for it as in obey God. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9 (Notice how it says salvation is from God only and then it says salvation is from Jesus since they're one and the same) 2. Grace Grace is God paying the price for our sins so we don't have to nor are we able to pay for it even. Our future good works cannot erase our past sins no matter what which is why works alone cannot save you without the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from sins already committed. Good works only prevent further sins and keep you cleansed but they do not cleanse/remove sins already committed. This is what God means by our works are like filthy rags because they cannot remove past sins at all but will keep the sins there since filthy rags cannot clean anything. We need a clean rag to clean our sins...which is the blood of Jesus who is sin free and isn't a dirty rag but a clean one. So only Jesus can cleanse us if we accept His sacrifice and His forgiveness. So our redemption and santification comes from Christ so we can obtain inheritance with Him in heaven. But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Acts 20:32 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:24 We were bought with a price to be freed from our sins which we couldn't remove ourselves. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 1 Corinthians 7:23 This price then mentions that we must give back by glorifying God with works. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:20 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Romans 12:1 3. Work And of course we must still labor after we receive grace so grace wouldn't be given to us in vain. It was given to remove our sins so how can we continue sinning if we need it removed since sin beings death? Grace is letting us work abundantly now since we've been freed from sin/death. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1 Corinthians 15:10 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 2 Corinthians 9:8 And even though our works were dirty rags to God in the way that works mean nothing in removing our sins except only by His blood and grace that can remove them... Works actually mean a lot to God in other ways since He does require us to obey Him as a living sacrifice to be born again into a new creation and the image of God from receiving this grace. God will not forget our work that He needs us to do. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews.6:10 So we are reminded to be righteous in all that we do. It's important to God and shows our knowledge. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34 Because with grace comes work. So faith without works is dead. Sadly some still live in vain thinking they only need grace and so are still dead in the sin they continue to do. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26 In summary salvation is from God so He makes the rules. Only His blood can save us through His grace towards us since our works cannot remove sins. And those accepting grace must be born again unto righteous by working for God while being in His image. Agree? Thoughts? Comments?
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 30, 2018 2:28:11 GMT
Yes, I agree with all that you said Salvation isn't given to us so we can go on living the way we want. Many people believe God's grace is a license to sin, but it definitely isn't. Paul makes it clear here when he says, Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? He is saying if we sin we are servants of sin and of death, but if we obey God then we are His servants and servants of righteousness. Paul also says earlier in Romans 6, Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. This is after baptism of course, but nonetheless we should not serve sin. Jesus says Himself here, John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And as Jesus said, we cannot serve two masters, Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. He speaks of putting your faith in money here in the context, but it applies to everything. If we put our faith in things other than God, we are not servants of God. It is said well here in James 1 also, James 1:21-25 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. It clearly says those who only listen to God's word continue going their own way. And here in James 2 as well, James 2:17-26 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. This passage is saying faith without works is a dead faith. It is a faith that is comes from the mouth, but not from the heart. It is, in other words, a lie. Faith without works is compared to a body without a spirit, which is a dead body. It also gives us the example of Abraham and how he showed his faith by the works he did. I mean, why would Abraham leave his country if he didn't believe what God said to him? He got up and left like God told him to do, he took action, it showed his faith, and that's the point being made here in James 2; our actions show our faith much more than our words could. And yes, we must obey Him and keep His commandments. Christ's command to his disciples was to follow him, Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And we follow Him because He is the way, the truth, and the life, John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Our ways are not going to save us from our sins, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Yes, the meaning of baptism is explained here in Romans 6, Romans 6 :1-12 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. At the beginning it says grace will not come to fruition if we continue in sin which should be enough for anyone to realize that God does not want us to go on living how we want to live. But continuing on, it explains that baptism is done in symbolism of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It says as Christ died, our old man, sinful flesh, dies and is crucified with Him, and we are buried with Him, but then raised from the dead with Him in newness of life, as a new man, and from then on we should not serve sin. If we die with Christ and believe on Him, we will live with Him, and sin will have no dominion over us anymore, so we are dead to sin and live how God wants us to and that is not by our own way, but by His way, by righteousness and not by sin. And what you said about the Holy Ghost I cannot explain any better, but you can see that it correlates well with the verses I quoted and explanations of them. Any comments? All great stuff and I agree. Now just want to discuss salvation, grace, and works and how they unite or work together. 1. Salvation Our salvation is in God/Christ alone. He decides whether to give salvation or not give it. We play no role in this matter. Here's a few verses out of many for this proof. And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise. 1 Chronicles 16:35 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? Psalm 27:1 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved. Psalm 62:2 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. Lamentations 3:26 We of course must work to obtain this salvation that He gives us. It's there but we must take it by working for it if we want it. It's an action that shows we want it. You need actions/proof to back up everything. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 So we and everyone else who wants God's salvation must obtain it. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 And of course to obtain it we must work for it as in obey God. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9 (Notice how it says salvation is from God only and then it says salvation is from Jesus since they're one and the same) 2. Grace Grace is God paying the price for our sins so we don't have to nor are we able to pay for it even. Our future good works cannot erase our past sins no matter what which is why works alone cannot save you without the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from sins already committed. Good works only prevent further sins and keep you cleansed but they do not cleanse/remove sins already committed. This is what God means by our works are like filthy rags because they cannot remove past sins at all but will keep the sins there since filthy rags cannot clean anything. We need a clean rag to clean our sins...which is the blood of Jesus who is sin free and isn't a dirty rag but a clean one. So only Jesus can cleanse us if we accept His sacrifice and His forgiveness. So our redemption and santification comes from Christ so we can obtain inheritance with Him in heaven. But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Acts 20:32 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:24 We were bought with a price to be freed from our sins which we couldn't remove ourselves. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 1 Corinthians 7:23 This price then mentions that we must give back by glorifying God with works. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Corinthians 6:20 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Romans 12:1 3. Work And of course we must still labor after we receive grace so grace wouldn't be given to us in vain. It was given to remove our sins so how can we continue sinning if we need it removed since sin beings death? Grace is letting us work abundantly now since we've been freed from sin/death. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1 Corinthians 15:10 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians 6:1 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 2 Corinthians 9:8 And even though our works were dirty rags to God in the way that works mean nothing in removing our sins except only by His blood and grace that can remove them... Works actually mean a lot to God in other ways since He does require us to obey Him as a living sacrifice to be born again into a new creation and the image of God from receiving this grace. God will not forget our work that He needs us to do. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews.6:10 So we are reminded to be righteous in all that we do. It's important to God and shows our knowledge. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34 Because with grace comes work. So faith without works is dead. Sadly some still live in vain thinking they only need grace and so are still dead in the sin they continue to do. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26 In summary salvation is from God so He makes the rules. Only His blood can save us through His grace towards us since our works cannot remove sins. And those accepting grace must be born again unto righteous by working for God while being in His image. Agree? Thoughts? Comments? Yes I agree Absolutely, salvation is not of ourselves, it is of God, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: I'm thinking you mean we play no role in God's decisions, which is true. However, we do have free will and we choose if we want to believe in Him and do His will. We played no role in Him making the rules for salvation, nor any role in Him devising His plan for us and the world. I would be careful how you word it, because salvation is by faith, not of works, Ephesians 2:9 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. But, that doesn't mean there is no work involved. As you said, and as it says in James 2, our works prove our faith, James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. A huge misconception among Christians is that salvation is by faith alone, but here in James 2 it quite clearly says it is not. It literally says "not by faith only". This is because anyone can say they believe or that they have faith, and then turn around and not act on that faith and do the opposite of what someone of faith is supposed to do, which is obey. Abraham is a prime example; if he had not got up and left all that he had and knew in Ur, then that would show God that he had no faith, and so Abraham's faith was shown by his obedience. Someone could also say they will do something and then not do it, which almost the same exact thing; there is actually a parable that shows us this exact thing, Matthew 21:23-31 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. The example is the second son who said he would go work in his father's vineyard, but didn't go. It was the first son who did the will of his father after he repented and went and did the work. Someone who does what the second son did is considered unreliable, undependable, untrustworthy, faithless, unfaithful, disloyal, etc. God cannot rely on this kind of servant to obey Him. But even regardless of this, God will see our hearts, Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts. Psalm 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? So, works become a part of salvation, and the only way to obtain salvation is by faith and by works that justify our faith, but works alone do not save us just as faith alone does not save us. Christ even says Himself that we should labor for everlasting life, John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. And we must also endure until the end, Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Yes, obeying is absolutely a part of salvation, Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. And we know those who have the Spirit also have salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You've explained grace very well, there isn't much more I could add, but I will say that God's grace is also His longsuffering, mercy, favor, benevolence, compassion, forbearance, etc. and by all these God loved the world so much that He gave His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world so that we all have the chance to be free from sin and death and be with Him once more in righteousness. It is just absolutely amazing and mind-boggling how God was able to manifest Himself in the likeness of man, in the flesh, and sacrifice Himself in the flesh so that we may have the opportunity to be free of sin and obtain salvation from sin and death, it is a demonstration of who He is and His power. It's magnificent(for lack of a better term.. I don't think there is word to describe just how awesome it really is) You've explained the works part very well also, and I touched on it too above So put into a short summary, salvation is by faith and works which prove our faith as we are created unto good works, but salvation is only by God's grace, His longsuffering, mercy, favor, benevolence, compassion, etc. and not of ourselves. We can do nothing to save ourselves from sin and death. Salvation must be obtained by proving our faith by our works, as faith alone and works alone do not justify us before God: the example of Abraham, Matthew, Peter(very shaky at times) and his brother Andrew, as well as Paul and so many other prophets and apostles in the Bible who all stopped going their own way when God gave them commandment and they thereafter continued not in their own way, but in God's, obeying Him, trusting in and glorifying Him in all things. Agree? Comments?
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Oct 31, 2018 5:39:25 GMT
DKTrav88 Correct. I said salvation was God's decision and so was grace to be given to us as a gift. We had no role in this area. We just have free will in terms of how we respond to this. Like you said we can choose if we want to believe in Him and do His will as Joshua told people to choose too. I personally choose this part in bold.... Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”Correct. This plan was created long before we or the world existed. So, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,2 Timothy 1:9 What did I say wrong? Plus faith without works is dead. So both are required. Works backs up your faith. Exactly, we are justified by works and faith working together. Yeah. Plus demons believe and not only believe but tremble. They do great on believing but what doesn't get them to heaven is they have no works nor do they to obey God to love Him fully. They'll only obey when they've no choice like when Jesus told them to leave the possessed people. Yup, he put his full trust into God even to the point of willing to kill his only son that he wanted forever. The one saying yes and not following through is a lukewarm person or one who put his hand in the plow and looked back. Such a person is unfit for the kingdom of God. The one that obeys and strives to enter through that gate is worthy. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Revelation:3:16 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Luke 9:62 God has requirements. If we don't care to meet them then it's no one's fault but our own. A teacher never gives you an F, it's what you earned. So we must make ourselves worthy for it. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thessalonians 1:11 Heaven is a prize after all. Only those who work hard to win it get it. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 1 Corinthians 9:24 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14 Those who win always receive... And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:12 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8 And only the one that does what God asks gets the prize/reward. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:21 Yes, the heart is important. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Matthew 12:35 So if you love the Lord with all your mind, body, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself your heart will be where in needs to be and you'll lay up treasure for yourself in heaven. Indeed. Our labour will tell us if we deserve heaven or hell. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 1 Corinthians 3:8 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians:15:58 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hebrews 4:11 And He will remember all of our labour.. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Revelation 2:2 Indeed. If we don't endure to the end then our labour was in vain. We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians:6:1 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Philippians 2:16 Yes, and the Spirit in us is proof we are in His image. Unless we quenched the Spirit and ran in vain never enduring to the end to get our crown. Well, God is love. Yup! Agree to all of it. What can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation? Was hoping for this topic next.
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 2, 2018 1:22:56 GMT
DKTrav88 Correct. I said salvation was God's decision and so was grace to be given to us as a gift. We had no role in this area. We just have free will in terms of how we respond to this. Like you said we can choose if we want to believe in Him and do His will as Joshua told people to choose too. I personally choose this part in bold.... Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”Correct. This plan was created long before we or the world existed. So, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,2 Timothy 1:9 What did I say wrong? Plus faith without works is dead. So both are required. Works backs up your faith. Exactly, we are justified by works and faith working together. Yeah. Plus demons believe and not only believe but tremble. They do great on believing but what doesn't get them to heaven is they have no works nor do they to obey God to love Him fully. They'll only obey when they've no choice like when Jesus told them to leave the possessed people. Yup, he put his full trust into God even to the point of willing to kill his only son that he wanted forever. The one saying yes and not following through is a lukewarm person or one who put his hand in the plow and looked back. Such a person is unfit for the kingdom of God. The one that obeys and strives to enter through that gate is worthy. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Revelation:3:16 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Luke 9:62 God has requirements. If we don't care to meet them then it's no one's fault but our own. A teacher never gives you an F, it's what you earned. So we must make ourselves worthy for it. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thessalonians 1:11 Heaven is a prize after all. Only those who work hard to win it get it. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 1 Corinthians 9:24 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14 Those who win always receive... And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:12 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8 And only the one that does what God asks gets the prize/reward. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:21 Yes, the heart is important. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Matthew 12:35 So if you love the Lord with all your mind, body, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself your heart will be where in needs to be and you'll lay up treasure for yourself in heaven. Indeed. Our labour will tell us if we deserve heaven or hell. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 1 Corinthians 3:8 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians:15:58 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hebrews 4:11 And He will remember all of our labour.. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Revelation 2:2 Indeed. If we don't endure to the end then our labour was in vain. We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians:6:1 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Philippians 2:16 Yes, and the Spirit in us is proof we are in His image. Unless we quenched the Spirit and ran in vain never enduring to the end to get our crown. Well, God is love. Yup! Agree to all of it. What can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation? Was hoping for this topic next. Good Well, for those who are chosen, there isn't anything, according to scripture, that can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation, Romans 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. These are those who will endure to the end, those few that are chosen. I’m sure you have more to add
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Nov 3, 2018 3:47:24 GMT
DKTrav88 Correct. I said salvation was God's decision and so was grace to be given to us as a gift. We had no role in this area. We just have free will in terms of how we respond to this. Like you said we can choose if we want to believe in Him and do His will as Joshua told people to choose too. I personally choose this part in bold.... Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”Correct. This plan was created long before we or the world existed. So, we had absolutely nothing to do with it. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,2 Timothy 1:9 What did I say wrong? Plus faith without works is dead. So both are required. Works backs up your faith. Exactly, we are justified by works and faith working together. Yeah. Plus demons believe and not only believe but tremble. They do great on believing but what doesn't get them to heaven is they have no works nor do they to obey God to love Him fully. They'll only obey when they've no choice like when Jesus told them to leave the possessed people. Yup, he put his full trust into God even to the point of willing to kill his only son that he wanted forever. The one saying yes and not following through is a lukewarm person or one who put his hand in the plow and looked back. Such a person is unfit for the kingdom of God. The one that obeys and strives to enter through that gate is worthy. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Revelation:3:16 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Luke 9:62 God has requirements. If we don't care to meet them then it's no one's fault but our own. A teacher never gives you an F, it's what you earned. So we must make ourselves worthy for it. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thessalonians 1:11 Heaven is a prize after all. Only those who work hard to win it get it. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 1 Corinthians 9:24 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14 Those who win always receive... And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 1 Peter 5:4 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:12 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8 And only the one that does what God asks gets the prize/reward. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:21 Yes, the heart is important. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Matthew 12:35 So if you love the Lord with all your mind, body, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself your heart will be where in needs to be and you'll lay up treasure for yourself in heaven. Indeed. Our labour will tell us if we deserve heaven or hell. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 1 Corinthians 3:8 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians:15:58 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Hebrews 4:11 And He will remember all of our labour.. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Revelation 2:2 Indeed. If we don't endure to the end then our labour was in vain. We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 Corinthians:6:1 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Philippians 2:16 Yes, and the Spirit in us is proof we are in His image. Unless we quenched the Spirit and ran in vain never enduring to the end to get our crown. Well, God is love. Yup! Agree to all of it. What can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation? Was hoping for this topic next. Good Well, for those who are chosen, there isn't anything, according to scripture, that can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation, Romans 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. These are those who will endure to the end, those few that are chosen. I’m sure you have more to add Yes, all correct and true. But can a person separate themselves after being born again (doing baptism)? I don't want to just end on the verses you posted only but to go into more verses and stuff
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 4, 2018 5:55:14 GMT
Good Well, for those who are chosen, there isn't anything, according to scripture, that can separate us from the love of God to keep us from salvation, Romans 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. These are those who will endure to the end, those few that are chosen. I’m sure you have more to add Yes, all correct and true. But can a person separate themselves after being born again (doing baptism)? I don't want to just end on the verses you posted only but to go into more verses and stuff I would say yes. There examples of this happening in scripture. Demas, one of Paul's fellowlaborers in the Lord forsook Paul and went after those things that are of the world, 2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. It says this in Hebrews, Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ...meaning not only that people cannot be renewed if the fall away, but the obvious fact that people can indeed fall away. Salvation isn't something earned, you can't earn something that is a free gift, but it is by the grace of God, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: There will be many called, but only few chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Many will be called and baptized, but only a few chosen; Judas Iscariot is a prime example, having partaken in the Lord's supper means that he was baptized. He was called a traitor in the Bible, meaning that he was indeed born again, but became separated, Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. So, salvation is the gift of God but by His grace, not of ourselves. Many will be called to repentance and baptized, but only few chosen by the grace of God. Hebrews tells us not only that people cannot be renewed after falling away, but makes it an obvious fact that falling away of those who partook in the Holy Ghost does happen. We have an endurance race set before us, Hebrews 12:1-3 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. And we have the perfect example of Abraham who waited patiently and endured, Hebrews 6:13-15 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. Agree? Anything to add?
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Nov 5, 2018 4:21:07 GMT
Yes, all correct and true. But can a person separate themselves after being born again (doing baptism)? I don't want to just end on the verses you posted only but to go into more verses and stuff I would say yes. There examples of this happening in scripture. Demas, one of Paul's fellowlaborers in the Lord forsook Paul and went after those things that are of the world, 2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. It says this in Hebrews, Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ...meaning not only that people cannot be renewed if the fall away, but the obvious fact that people can indeed fall away. Salvation isn't something earned, you can't earn something that is a free gift, but it is by the grace of God, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: There will be many called, but only few chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Many will be called and baptized, but only a few chosen; Judas Iscariot is a prime example, having partaken in the Lord's supper means that he was baptized. He was called a traitor in the Bible, meaning that he was indeed born again, but became separated, Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. So, salvation is the gift of God but by His grace, not of ourselves. Many will be called to repentance and baptized, but only few chosen by the grace of God. Hebrews tells us not only that people cannot be renewed after falling away, but makes it an obvious fact that falling away of those who partook in the Holy Ghost does happen. We have an endurance race set before us, Hebrews 12:1-3 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. And we have the perfect example of Abraham who waited patiently and endured, Hebrews 6:13-15 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. Agree? Anything to add? Yes, many will run the race too but not all will endure to the end to win the crown of salvation. They are those who fell away and laboured in vain as Paul mentions. And Jesus said that you must endure to the end while being born again to make it. This is all part of following God's word in the gospel since we live only by His words in the gospel not by what some church says or some other person whoever he may be. Then after the race we have that judgment as the rest of the world will too. 1 Peter 4:17-19 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. We know by these verses that the righteous which endure to the end and win the race will be saved and obtaining a crown unto eternal life. But the epistle leaves the question of where will the ungodly sinner go? The question is put there for us to think about it and make sure we don't appear where they will go after judgment. Since scripture says that if he's not saved then he goes to hell. Which is very important for us to not run in vain or to be hypocrites which receive greater condemnation. It's truly though because when some people believe and follow at first end up falling away. And note the below verse says they're on the rock because they chose to obey the word at first but then stopped. Obeying the word is being secure in God's grace and mercy and being on a rock since that's on what God's church is built on, Him. But the tempter, Satan, will always be after us to make us fall away and cease our labour. So we can cease to obey and lose the race. We can't fall off the rock! They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 These are the people who I say were so close to getting there but gave up. They were on the right track and knew the way to that door which not many enter but they just stopped enduring. And then miss the entrance... Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 This is like seeing my straight A student suddenly giving up. They know how to get the A since they have been doing it before but just get lazy or whatever. That doesn't get you far in life. Only those who work hard and try get somewhere in life. It's how it always was. It's like if you know how to do something then do it is what this verse says. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. Exodus 18:23 But the key word is to not be offended and to accept persecutions for Christ to endure. Plus, if you're offended of God then how is it even loving Him with all your mind, body, and soul? So people give up because they do not love God. And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. Mark:4:17 That's why we always must be watchful, not get offended, and expect persecution. Otherwise, we've proved nothing for our faith at all if we depart from it. We must have full proof of it. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.2 Timothy:4:5 So basically, God will keep us forever if we let Him since nothing can separate us from His love as you said. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 However, we can refuse His love since we can choose what future we want whether with Him or not. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 6, 2018 5:00:02 GMT
I would say yes. There examples of this happening in scripture. Demas, one of Paul's fellowlaborers in the Lord forsook Paul and went after those things that are of the world, 2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. It says this in Hebrews, Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ...meaning not only that people cannot be renewed if the fall away, but the obvious fact that people can indeed fall away. Salvation isn't something earned, you can't earn something that is a free gift, but it is by the grace of God, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: There will be many called, but only few chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Many will be called and baptized, but only a few chosen; Judas Iscariot is a prime example, having partaken in the Lord's supper means that he was baptized. He was called a traitor in the Bible, meaning that he was indeed born again, but became separated, Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. So, salvation is the gift of God but by His grace, not of ourselves. Many will be called to repentance and baptized, but only few chosen by the grace of God. Hebrews tells us not only that people cannot be renewed after falling away, but makes it an obvious fact that falling away of those who partook in the Holy Ghost does happen. We have an endurance race set before us, Hebrews 12:1-3 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. And we have the perfect example of Abraham who waited patiently and endured, Hebrews 6:13-15 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. Agree? Anything to add? Yes, many will run the race too but not all will endure to the end to win the crown of salvation. They are those who fell away and laboured in vain as Paul mentions. And Jesus said that you must endure to the end while being born again to make it. This is all part of following God's word in the gospel since we live only by His words in the gospel not by what some church says or some other person whoever he may be. Then after the race we have that judgment as the rest of the world will too. 1 Peter 4:17-19 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. We know by these verses that the righteous which endure to the end and win the race will be saved and obtaining a crown unto eternal life. But the epistle leaves the question of where will the ungodly sinner go? The question is put there for us to think about it and make sure we don't appear where they will go after judgment. Since scripture says that if he's not saved then he goes to hell. Which is very important for us to not run in vain or to be hypocrites which receive greater condemnation. It's truly though because when some people believe and follow at first end up falling away. And note the below verse says they're on the rock because they chose to obey the word at first but then stopped. Obeying the word is being secure in God's grace and mercy and being on a rock since that's on what God's church is built on, Him. But the tempter, Satan, will always be after us to make us fall away and cease our labour. So we can cease to obey and lose the race. We can't fall off the rock! They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 These are the people who I say were so close to getting there but gave up. They were on the right track and knew the way to that door which not many enter but they just stopped enduring. And then miss the entrance... Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 This is like seeing my straight A student suddenly giving up. They know how to get the A since they have been doing it before but just get lazy or whatever. That doesn't get you far in life. Only those who work hard and try get somewhere in life. It's how it always was. It's like if you know how to do something then do it is what this verse says. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. Exodus 18:23 But the key word is to not be offended and to accept persecutions for Christ to endure. Plus, if you're offended of God then how is it even loving Him with all your mind, body, and soul? So people give up because they do not love God. And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. Mark:4:17 That's why we always must be watchful, not get offended, and expect persecution. Otherwise, we've proved nothing for our faith at all if we depart from it. We must have full proof of it. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.2 Timothy:4:5 So basically, God will keep us forever if we let Him since nothing can separate us from His love as you said. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 However, we can refuse His love since we can choose what future we want whether with Him or not. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22 Yes, I agree with all that you said You brought up those who will believe and follow at first then end up falling away which is in this parable in Luke 8 and is one of my favorite if not my favorite parable, Luke 8:4-15 4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. This parable has everything to do with salvation and the spreading of God's word. As we can see, there are 4 different types of people here that Jesus describes. The first heard God's word but didn't understand it, the devil comes and takes it from them, deceiving them, so they never had a chance to grow. The example of the seed on the way side given by Christ is perfect as a majority of plants/trees that produce fruit have a very, very difficult time growing on the sides of roads; they are neglected and/or abused when they need to be nurtured and cared for. Weeds(tares) on the other hand grow just fine on the sides of roads. The second are they that you gave the example of, those who heard God's word and received it with joy, but there was no good soil for their root take in on rocky ground, so their faith shrivels up and dies and in time they fall away to temptation. These are also those who fall away because in time of persecution they become offended and angry according to the parallel parables written in Matthew 13 and Mark 4; Peter is the perfect example of this when he got angry and denied Christ three times after being told by other people that they knew he was with Christ and even after Christ told him he would do it. The third are those who heard God's word but ended up caring more for the things pleasures of this world than for God and His word, bringing forth no good fruit; Demas who Paul mentions in 2 Timothy 4:10 is a perfect example having loved the things of the world more than God. And finally the 4th are those who hear the word, understand it and keep it, having good and honest hearts, a good strong healthy root, bringing forth much good fruit with patience: these are those who endure until the end. As we can see, there are many called, but only a few chosen; 4 types of people, three are not saved, and only one is.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Nov 7, 2018 7:14:04 GMT
Yes, many will run the race too but not all will endure to the end to win the crown of salvation. They are those who fell away and laboured in vain as Paul mentions. And Jesus said that you must endure to the end while being born again to make it. This is all part of following God's word in the gospel since we live only by His words in the gospel not by what some church says or some other person whoever he may be. Then after the race we have that judgment as the rest of the world will too. 1 Peter 4:17-19 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. We know by these verses that the righteous which endure to the end and win the race will be saved and obtaining a crown unto eternal life. But the epistle leaves the question of where will the ungodly sinner go? The question is put there for us to think about it and make sure we don't appear where they will go after judgment. Since scripture says that if he's not saved then he goes to hell. Which is very important for us to not run in vain or to be hypocrites which receive greater condemnation. It's truly though because when some people believe and follow at first end up falling away. And note the below verse says they're on the rock because they chose to obey the word at first but then stopped. Obeying the word is being secure in God's grace and mercy and being on a rock since that's on what God's church is built on, Him. But the tempter, Satan, will always be after us to make us fall away and cease our labour. So we can cease to obey and lose the race. We can't fall off the rock! They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13 These are the people who I say were so close to getting there but gave up. They were on the right track and knew the way to that door which not many enter but they just stopped enduring. And then miss the entrance... Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14 This is like seeing my straight A student suddenly giving up. They know how to get the A since they have been doing it before but just get lazy or whatever. That doesn't get you far in life. Only those who work hard and try get somewhere in life. It's how it always was. It's like if you know how to do something then do it is what this verse says. If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. Exodus 18:23 But the key word is to not be offended and to accept persecutions for Christ to endure. Plus, if you're offended of God then how is it even loving Him with all your mind, body, and soul? So people give up because they do not love God. And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. Mark:4:17 That's why we always must be watchful, not get offended, and expect persecution. Otherwise, we've proved nothing for our faith at all if we depart from it. We must have full proof of it. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.2 Timothy:4:5 So basically, God will keep us forever if we let Him since nothing can separate us from His love as you said. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 However, we can refuse His love since we can choose what future we want whether with Him or not. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22 Yes, I agree with all that you said You brought up those who will believe and follow at first then end up falling away which is in this parable in Luke 8 and is one of my favorite if not my favorite parable, Luke 8:4-15 4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. This parable has everything to do with salvation and the spreading of God's word. As we can see, there are 4 different types of people here that Jesus describes. The first heard God's word but didn't understand it, the devil comes and takes it from them, deceiving them, so they never had a chance to grow. The example of the seed on the way side given by Christ is perfect as a majority of plants/trees that produce fruit have a very, very difficult time growing on the sides of roads; they are neglected and/or abused when they need to be nurtured and cared for. Weeds(tares) on the other hand grow just fine on the sides of roads. The second are they that you gave the example of, those who heard God's word and received it with joy, but there was no good soil for their root take in on rocky ground, so their faith shrivels up and dies and in time they fall away to temptation. These are also those who fall away because in time of persecution they become offended and angry according to the parallel parables written in Matthew 13 and Mark 4; Peter is the perfect example of this when he got angry and denied Christ three times after being told by other people that they knew he was with Christ and even after Christ told him he would do it. The third are those who heard God's word but ended up caring more for the things pleasures of this world than for God and His word, bringing forth no good fruit; Demas who Paul mentions in 2 Timothy 4:10 is a perfect example having loved the things of the world more than God. And finally the 4th are those who hear the word, understand it and keep it, having good and honest hearts, a good strong healthy root, bringing forth much good fruit with patience: these are those who endure until the end. As we can see, there are many called, but only a few chosen; 4 types of people, three are not saved, and only one is. I agree about all of it And those who heard the word and keep it were taught by God. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. Psalm 119:33 Or do we seek instruction from others? I think that's a good next topic
|
|