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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 15, 2018 1:43:09 GMT
I agree with this guy. You either accept your faith fully or else you're just an unsure agnostic about everything. Or your thoughts on his view?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 15, 2018 20:12:34 GMT
I believe there is, but I don’t want to get into a discussion about here. And I’d like to retract my last post. Probably the wisest thing you ever said here. But seeing the thread above' you already did commit a lot of damage. My last post was incorrect and needs to be fixed and restated. But I wouldn’t call the previous posts damage. They’re on point; Christ used figures of speech to convey a point to His disciples and others, and faith has ALWAYS been a requirement in the Bible.
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Post by fschmidt on Aug 15, 2018 21:31:49 GMT
I’m getting the impression that you’ve never actually read through the OT. Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJV [19] And when the Lord saw it , he abhorred them , because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. [20] And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be : for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Psalm 31:23 KJV [23] O love the Lord , all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. Habakkuk 2:4 KJV [4] Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Faith has ALWAYS been a requirement in the Bible. And having faith is not believing in the “high probability” of something. High probability expresses low improbability which means there is doubt. Any sliver of doubt expresses unbelief. KJV is a translation reflecting Christian bias. If you actually look at the Hebrew words that are translated as "faith", they have the same base "_mn" and all mean trust or trustworthy. You can see this by looking at all the uses of the word. The Christian concept of faith, meaning no doubt, does not exist in the Old Testament, and in fact the whole concept is a violation of the spirit of the Old Testament.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 15, 2018 23:19:44 GMT
I’m getting the impression that you’ve never actually read through the OT. Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJV [19] And when the Lord saw it , he abhorred them , because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. [20] And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be : for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Psalm 31:23 KJV [23] O love the Lord , all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. Habakkuk 2:4 KJV [4] Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Faith has ALWAYS been a requirement in the Bible. And having faith is not believing in the “high probability” of something. High probability expresses low improbability which means there is doubt. Any sliver of doubt expresses unbelief. KJV is a translation reflecting Christian bias. If you actually look at the Hebrew words that are translated as "faith", they have the same base "_mn" and all mean trust or trustworthy. You can see this by looking at all the uses of the word. The Christian concept of faith, meaning no doubt, does not exist in the Old Testament, and in fact the whole concept is a violation of the spirit of the Old Testament. There is no bias in the KJV at all. The KJV is translated directly from the Hebrew, the Masoretic texts with slight influence from the Septuagint. If you’re saying the KJV is biased then you’re also saying God is a liar, as God said He would preserve His word for ever(and no that doesn’t mean in the Hebrew and the Greek, that means in all languages as a grand majority of the world does not speak, read, nor understand ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek). Trust and faith are synonyms. And yes the concept of faith does absolutely exist in the OT as trust is a synonym for faith. It is absolutely not a violation of the spirit of the OT. Believe is also a synonym for faith as well as trust. This verse regarding Abraham(Abram at the time); Genesis 15:6 KJV [6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Abraham believed God, he trusted God, he had faith in God.
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Post by fschmidt on Aug 16, 2018 6:31:01 GMT
There is no bias in the KJV at all. The KJV is translated directly from the Hebrew, the Masoretic texts with slight influence from the Septuagint. If you’re saying the KJV is biased then you’re also saying God is a liar, as God said He would preserve His word for ever(and no that doesn’t mean in the Hebrew and the Greek, that means in all languages as a grand majority of the world does not speak, read, nor understand ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek). Trust and faith are synonyms. And yes the concept of faith does absolutely exist in the OT as trust is a synonym for faith. It is absolutely not a violation of the spirit of the OT. Believe is also a synonym for faith as well as trust. This verse regarding Abraham(Abram at the time); Genesis 15:6 KJV [6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Abraham believed God, he trusted God, he had faith in God. Which languages do you know? When languages differ significantly, it becomes impossible to translate without bias because there is no word in the target language that exactly matches the meaning of the word in the original language. English is full of words with subtle difference. Biblical Hebrew isn't. So for example, I trust my car (because it usually works) but I wouldn't say that I have faith in my car. What the Old Testament asks for is this kind of truth in God (like my trust in my car). The whole concept of Christian faith is alien to the Old Testament and isn't there. Genesis 15:6 illustrates my point. The Hebrew that is translated as "believed" is "_mn" again, again meaning trusted. Abraham counted on God for righteousness like I count on my car for transportation.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 16, 2018 8:14:48 GMT
There is no bias in the KJV at all. The KJV is translated directly from the Hebrew, the Masoretic texts with slight influence from the Septuagint. If you’re saying the KJV is biased then you’re also saying God is a liar, as God said He would preserve His word for ever(and no that doesn’t mean in the Hebrew and the Greek, that means in all languages as a grand majority of the world does not speak, read, nor understand ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek). Trust and faith are synonyms. And yes the concept of faith does absolutely exist in the OT as trust is a synonym for faith. It is absolutely not a violation of the spirit of the OT. Believe is also a synonym for faith as well as trust. This verse regarding Abraham(Abram at the time); Genesis 15:6 KJV [6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Abraham believed God, he trusted God, he had faith in God. Which languages do you know? When languages differ significantly, it becomes impossible to translate without bias because there is no word in the target language that exactly matches the meaning of the word in the original language. English is full of words with subtle difference. Biblical Hebrew isn't. So for example, I trust my car (because it usually works) but I wouldn't say that I have faith in my car. What the Old Testament asks for is this kind of truth in God (like my trust in my car). The whole concept of Christian faith is alien to the Old Testament and isn't there. Genesis 15:6 illustrates my point. The Hebrew that is translated as "believed" is "_mn" again, again meaning trusted. Abraham counted on God for righteousness like I count on my car for transportation. Belief and faith have the same meaning as trust. Belief - confidence; faith; trust: Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing Trust - reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence. Since these definitions all mention confidence, I’ll throw that in here too. Confidence - full trust; belief in the powers, trustworthiness, or reliability of a person or thing It’s all the same. I feel like this a pointless discussion to have with you as it is. You think I have to know other languages to understand subtle differences in English, when the OT was translated from Hebrew into more than just English. We can refer to those languages too and they’d have the same meaning. At this point you’re expecting me to trust you instead of God. Can’t do that, sorry. Jeremiah 17:5,7 KJV [5] Thus saith the Lord ; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord . [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord , and whose hope the Lord is. Trust can be replaced with believe, faith, and confidence. They all mean the same thing.
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Post by fschmidt on Aug 16, 2018 8:56:16 GMT
Belief and faith have the same meaning as trust I thought my car example would be clear, but let me make it explicit. Faith is trust without doubt. Normal trust, like what I have for my car, includes some doubt. This makes faith and normal trust fundamentally different as you yourself expressed earlier in this thread.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Aug 16, 2018 15:05:21 GMT
Belief and faith have the same meaning as trust I thought my car example would be clear, but let me make it explicit. Faith is trust without doubt. Normal trust, like what I have for my car, includes some doubt. This makes faith and normal trust fundamentally different as you yourself expressed earlier in this thread. Yea, your car example is clear, but it doesn’t apply here. You’re creating your own definition of trust(normal trust) to fit your narrative(maybe because you have doubts about your own religion?) by interjecting doubt(which perhaps makes you feel better about having doubt?) into the definition. The definitions I posted are taken directly from the English dictionary and they all include the term “confidence” which is defined as “full trust”. Let’s define doubt using the dictionary; Doubt - To be undecided or skeptical - to disbelieve or distrust - to regard or consider unlikely - uncertainty - hesitate to believe - call into question - suspect And so on. Now clearly, doubt and faith conflict; how can someone trust something and distrust it at the same time? Doubt cannot coexist with trust and vice versa. This example from the NT, Matthew 14:27-31 KJV [27] But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. [28] And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. [29] And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. [30] But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. [31] And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? Notice as soon as Peter began to doubt, he began to sink into the water. Doubt was introduced and his faith was gone. Another example, Mark 4:35-41 KJV [35] And the same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side. [36] And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. [37] And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. [38] And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? [39] And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. [40] And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? [41] And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? The disciples had fear because they had doubt, fear and doubt are synonyms. Christ asked them “how is it that ye have NO faith?” This could not be more clear. When you introduce doubt, faith ceases to exist and vice versa. They cannot coexist.
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edenamador
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Post by edenamador on Oct 9, 2018 19:45:52 GMT
Kierkegaard would posit doubt as a key indicator of the strength of faith. His interpretation of the story of Abraham and his son is in my opinion the best outline for Christian faith.
If I were ever to become religious again I'd found a section of Lutheran faith based on Kierkegaardian philosophy. Doubt is essential for faith. I just cannot believe anyone who has never had doubt in a world so harsh and often senseless.
Doubt serves to strengthen faith, not demolish it. If one doubts, one must battle like hell to stabilize and one would logically become stronger in faith after each bout if doubt. Kierkegaard probably had the most sincere relationship with faith and one which is while ripe with emotions, logically grounded and rigorous. Humble, funny, serious, faithful. I love my Kierkegaard!
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 9, 2018 19:55:58 GMT
Kierkegaard would posit doubt as a key indicator of the strength of faith. His interpretation of the story of Abraham and his son is in my opinion the best outline for Christian faith. If I were ever to become religious again I'd found a section of Lutheran faith based on Kierkegaardian philosophy. Doubt is essential for faith. I just cannot believe anyone who has never had doubt in a world so harsh and often senseless. Doubt serves to strengthen faith, not demolish it. If one doubts, one must battle like hell to stabilize and one would logically become stronger in faith after each bout if doubt. Kierkegaard probably had the most sincere relationship with faith and one which is while ripe with emotions, logically grounded and rigorous. Humble, funny, serious, faithful. I love my Kierkegaard! Isn't doubt limiting someone to have full faith? Doubt seems to me that a person is unsure what they believe in anymore Shrug
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edenamador
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Post by edenamador on Oct 9, 2018 21:29:59 GMT
Kierkegaard would posit doubt as a key indicator of the strength of faith. His interpretation of the story of Abraham and his son is in my opinion the best outline for Christian faith. If I were ever to become religious again I'd found a section of Lutheran faith based on Kierkegaardian philosophy. Doubt is essential for faith. I just cannot believe anyone who has never had doubt in a world so harsh and often senseless. Doubt serves to strengthen faith, not demolish it. If one doubts, one must battle like hell to stabilize and one would logically become stronger in faith after each bout if doubt. Kierkegaard probably had the most sincere relationship with faith and one which is while ripe with emotions, logically grounded and rigorous. Humble, funny, serious, faithful. I love my Kierkegaard! Isn't doubt limiting someone to have full faith? Doubt seems to me that a person is unsure what they believe in anymore If there is no doubt there is no courage. Doubt is an essential ingredient. This video does a good job of describing the role of doubt in faith as posited by Kierkegaard. - My personal position is there miggt be a God. I haven't taken a "leap to faith". But if I ever do become faithful again I don't think such a serious matter such as God should be taken as lightly as it is here. Faith must be more than some Bible quotes. I am gay and grew up in a fundamentalist church. My father committed suicide. I was told I'm going to hell and my father is already there. So in order to keep alive and live life, one that must be valuable, I abandoned faith. Faith was presented to me as a subscription to hell. What is the point of remaining alive if faith condemns the very thing I am and the reality I experienced? None, so to stay alive I had to say no to a belief in God. Perhaps Christians should re-evaluate what is taught in church if Christianity has any hope of recruiting and maintaining membership. In short, I also think faith is a serious matter. In fact it is so serious that I don't believe I am a serious enough person, or well rounded enough person, or even qualified enough to be faithful. I think there are many people who are casually faithful without considering the serious effects of faith as it plays out. Casual faith in my experience corrupts the goal as it often excludes and leads to fewer people in the pews.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 10, 2018 0:26:39 GMT
Isn't doubt limiting someone to have full faith? Doubt seems to me that a person is unsure what they believe in anymore If there is no doubt there is no courage. Doubt is an essential ingredient. This video does a good job of describing the role of doubt in faith as posited by Kierkegaard. - My personal position is there miggt be a God. I haven't taken a "leap to faith". But if I ever do become faithful again I don't think such a serious matter such as God should be taken as lightly as it is here. Faith must be more than some Bible quotes. I am gay and grew up in a fundamentalist church. My father committed suicide. I was told I'm going to hell and my father is already there. So in order to keep alive and live life, one that must be valuable, I abandoned faith. Faith was presented to me as a subscription to hell. What is the point of remaining alive if faith condemns the very thing I am and the reality I experienced? None, so to stay alive I had to say no to a belief in God. Perhaps Christians should re-evaluate what is taught in church if Christianity has any hope of recruiting and maintaining membership. In short, I also think faith is a serious matter. In fact it is so serious that I don't believe I am a serious enough person, or well rounded enough person, or even qualified enough to be faithful. I think there are many people who are casually faithful without considering the serious effects of faith as it plays out. Casual faith in my experience corrupts the goal as it often excludes and leads to fewer people in the pews. How can a church change in order to recruit if they can only preach what God wants. Or you mean like a human only built religion?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 10, 2018 0:49:15 GMT
Kierkegaard would posit doubt as a key indicator of the strength of faith. His interpretation of the story of Abraham and his son is in my opinion the best outline for Christian faith. If I were ever to become religious again I'd found a section of Lutheran faith based on Kierkegaardian philosophy. Doubt is essential for faith. I just cannot believe anyone who has never had doubt in a world so harsh and often senseless. Doubt serves to strengthen faith, not demolish it. If one doubts, one must battle like hell to stabilize and one would logically become stronger in faith after each bout if doubt. Kierkegaard probably had the most sincere relationship with faith and one which is while ripe with emotions, logically grounded and rigorous. Humble, funny, serious, faithful. I love my Kierkegaard! That really doesn't make sense. How can being unsure, or having doubt, about something make your faith stronger in that something? That's like saying "I believe there is a God, but I'm not really sure a God exists". It's an oxymoron; uncertain faith... doubtful belief... agnostic Christian... c'mon Doubt definitely destroys faith, it cancels it out, and vice versa. They mean opposite things. Faith, trust, belief, confidence, reliability, etc. all mean the same thing and they contradict disbelief, skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty, fear, etc.
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edenamador
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Post by edenamador on Oct 10, 2018 11:12:22 GMT
Kierkegaard would posit doubt as a key indicator of the strength of faith. His interpretation of the story of Abraham and his son is in my opinion the best outline for Christian faith. If I were ever to become religious again I'd found a section of Lutheran faith based on Kierkegaardian philosophy. Doubt is essential for faith. I just cannot believe anyone who has never had doubt in a world so harsh and often senseless. Doubt serves to strengthen faith, not demolish it. If one doubts, one must battle like hell to stabilize and one would logically become stronger in faith after each bout if doubt. Kierkegaard probably had the most sincere relationship with faith and one which is while ripe with emotions, logically grounded and rigorous. Humble, funny, serious, faithful. I love my Kierkegaard! That really doesn't make sense. How can being unsure, or having doubt, about something make your faith stronger in that something? That's like saying "I believe there is a God, but I'm not really sure a God exists". It's an oxymoron; uncertain faith... doubtful belief... agnostic Christian... c'mon Doubt definitely destroys faith, it cancels it out, and vice versa. They mean opposite things. Faith, trust, belief, confidence, reliability, etc. all mean the same thing and they contradict disbelief, skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty, fear, etc. How can doubt uphold and be an integral part of faith? See Kierkegaards reading of the story of Abraham. To have faith in something is to negate doubt. One must wrestle with doubt, battle with it, before any true leap is taken. Negating doubt is the required task for faith. It is precisely because they are opposite that one should consider their relationship as opposites before any serious leap of faith can be had. I have not negated my doubt because faith was presented to me as a road to hell. Perhaps those who have easier lives without conflicts of religion and personal identity never experience doubt. Maybe for some it is not necessary. For Kierkegaard doubt was integral for faith and he didn't seem to get too upset when he was mocked for many of his ideas. Laugh away.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 10, 2018 17:24:07 GMT
That really doesn't make sense. How can being unsure, or having doubt, about something make your faith stronger in that something? That's like saying "I believe there is a God, but I'm not really sure a God exists". It's an oxymoron; uncertain faith... doubtful belief... agnostic Christian... c'mon Doubt definitely destroys faith, it cancels it out, and vice versa. They mean opposite things. Faith, trust, belief, confidence, reliability, etc. all mean the same thing and they contradict disbelief, skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty, fear, etc. How can doubt uphold and be an integral part of faith? See Kierkegaards reading of the story of Abraham. To have faith in something is to negate doubt. One must wrestle with doubt, battle with it, before any true leap is taken. Negating doubt is the required task for faith. It is precisely because they are opposite that one should consider their relationship as opposites before any serious leap of faith can be had. I have not negated my doubt because faith was presented to me as a road to hell. Perhaps those who have easier lives without conflicts of religion and personal identity never experience doubt. Maybe for some it is not necessary. For Kierkegaard doubt was integral for faith and he didn't seem to get too upset when he was mocked for many of his ideas. Laugh away. All I am saying is doubt cannot coexist with faith, as in someone cannot have faith and doubt at the same time because they conflict and mean opposite things; it becomes an oxymoron to have faith and doubt simultaneously shrug I’m not sure who presented faith to you, but I’m sure it wasn’t presented to you from the Bible because the Bible doesn’t say faith is a road to hell, that’s the opposite of what the Bible says. I’d rather not look at that guy’s interpretation of the story of Abraham. Is much rather just read the Bible and go by what it says.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 10, 2018 17:42:01 GMT
That really doesn't make sense. How can being unsure, or having doubt, about something make your faith stronger in that something? That's like saying "I believe there is a God, but I'm not really sure a God exists". It's an oxymoron; uncertain faith... doubtful belief... agnostic Christian... c'mon Doubt definitely destroys faith, it cancels it out, and vice versa. They mean opposite things. Faith, trust, belief, confidence, reliability, etc. all mean the same thing and they contradict disbelief, skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty, fear, etc. How can doubt uphold and be an integral part of faith? See Kierkegaards reading of the story of Abraham. To have faith in something is to negate doubt. One must wrestle with doubt, battle with it, before any true leap is taken. Negating doubt is the required task for faith. It is precisely because they are opposite that one should consider their relationship as opposites before any serious leap of faith can be had. I have not negated my doubt because faith was presented to me as a road to hell. Perhaps those who have easier lives without conflicts of religion and personal identity never experience doubt. Maybe for some it is not necessary. For Kierkegaard doubt was integral for faith and he didn't seem to get too upset when he was mocked for many of his ideas. Laugh away. Faith as a road to hell? Can you explain that more? So no kind of faith is allowed because it leads to hell?
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