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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 12, 2018 3:20:07 GMT
A side by side comparison of Roman Catholic teachings and Biblical doctrine. Roman Catholic Teachings
1)The bishops, with the pope as their head, rule the universal Church.
2)God has entrusted revelation to the bishops.
3)The pope is infallible in his teaching.
4)Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God.
5)Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participated with Christ in the painful act of redemption.
6)Mary is the co-mediator, to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions.
7)Initial justification is by means of baptism.
8)Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works.
9)Grace is merited by good works.
10)Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments.
11)No one can know if he will attain to eternal life.
12)The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.
13)Christ's body and blood exist wholly and entirely in every fragment of consecrated bread and wine in every Roman Catholic church around the world.
14)The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the sacrifice of the Mass.
15)Each sacrifice of the Mass appeases God's wrath against sin.
16)The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the sacrifice of the Mass.
| Biblical Doctrine
1)Christ, the head of the body, rules the universal church (Colossians 1:18).
2)God has entrusted revelation to the saints (Jude 3).
3)God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19; Acts 17:11).
4)Scripture alone is the Word of God (John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:20,21; Mark 7:1-13).
5)Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18,19).
6)Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5; John 14:13,14; 1 Peter 5:7).
7)Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:28).
8)God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5). Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).
9)Grace is a free gift (Romans 11:6).
10)Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:10).
11)The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God and the testimony of the Holy Spirit who indwells believers (1 John 5:13; Romans 8:16).
12)There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
13)The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ, and He is bodily present in heaven (1 Corinthians 11:23-25; Hebrews 10:12,13).
14)The sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).
15)The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:12-18).
16)The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 1:3). |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 12, 2018 18:43:16 GMT
So the affirmation is aimed at those who are seeking God with a sincerity... okay, so salvation through the Catholic Church is only affirmed to those who are sincerely seeking God... That’s funny because the Bible says Christ died for the sins of the whole world... not for only those who are seeking God... So the Catholic Church is exclusive? . This only confirms exactly what I was already saying. It means that other, non-Roman Catholics, as well as other Christians and followers of other religions (e.g. Jews and Muslims) may achieve salvation as well, which contradicts of what you said. no it doesn’t, I said the same exact thing you just said 🤷🏼♂️ “So the affirmation is aimed at those who are seeking God with sincerity” is not a contradiction to what it is saying or what you just said. What you’re doing is completely ignoring the part where it says salvation is of the Catholic Church and that you can only achieve salvation by being a member of the Catholic Church. It says that here, “Hence they could not be saved who...would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. And, “the Council teaches that the Church...is necessary for salvation” And, that the above is aimed at those who are sincerely seeking God according to 847. So if those who are sincerely seeking God refuse to enter in and/or remain in the Catholic Church they cannot be saved. That is exactly what it is saying.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 19:16:38 GMT
No, you are not saying that. You are saying that only Roman Catholics can go to Heaven, which is not true. It's far from what you're saying.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 12, 2018 20:04:55 GMT
No, you are not saying that. You are saying that only Roman Catholics can go to Heaven, which is not true. It's far from what you're saying. Wow facepalm I did say that and their CCC says it clearly as well. It says it here in 846, “the Council teaches that the Church...is necessary for salvation” And, “Hence they could not be saved who...would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” And, that the above is aimed at those who are sincerely seeking God according to 847; “Those who... nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” If 846 is true in saying, “the Council teaches that the Church...is necessary for salvation” And, “Hence they could not be saved who...would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” Then salvation can be achieved by ANYONE seeking God sincerely by entering into and remaining in the Catholic Church... So, if those who are sincerely seeking God refuse to enter in and/or remain in the Catholic Church they cannot be saved. That is exactly what it is saying shrug
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 20:14:33 GMT
Read the point 12 from your first post here and stop trying to say something else now.
Cheers.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 12, 2018 20:27:50 GMT
Read the point 12 from your first post here and stop trying to say something else now. Cheers. My goodness man, the Catholic Church Catechism comes from the Vatican.. they are one in the same are you kidding me? facepalm facepalm facepalm Do I really have to do this? Did I just get trolled? Smh
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 12, 2018 20:30:43 GMT
It's interesting watching two ex-Catholics discussing Catholicism since both are so different in responses. Hmm. Curious how divided real Catholics are now.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 12, 2018 23:14:46 GMT
@unknown and DKTrav88I had time to ponder on what you're saying and...actually I saw something similar to you both and something different. Look here...this is what I think you're saying. Dktrav88 said: You can only enter salvation and enter heaven through the Catholic church as it says in their catechism. Romeo: Other Christians and other religions can enter heaven the catechism says. But this is is what I interpreted it all means... You can only achieve salvation through their church UNLESS you are still seeking but haven't found their church. These are other religions but NOT other Christians. Here's why I came to this conclusion... This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 847. So if those who are sincerely seeking God refuse to enter in and/or remain in the Catholic Church they cannot be saved. Other Christians already know "Christ" and know the "Gospel of Christ" and the quote says it's only if they don't know Christ or the Gospel of Christ by no fault of their own who can get salvation if not in their church already. This means not other Christians since they know Christ and the Gospel but other religions and others who don't know Christ and the Gospel who are nonreligious...but NOT other Christians because they know Christ and the Gospel but refuse their church on purpose like me forever XD. Conclusion: Catholics, other religions who don't know and seek, and other people who don't know but seek but not other Christians who know but refuse the Catholic church. That's what I saw there Shrug
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 13, 2018 0:05:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 17:28:19 GMT
ElizabethIt's not one former Catholic against other former Catholic. It's one ex-Catholic who tries to prove "he's the smartest everyone is a moron who'll rot in hell" and the guy who actually knows how the Catholic Church works since he wanted to join it and wear robes with pride and shit. I am not even going to respond to him after his last message, where he surely tries to piss me off. So since now I know I will just refuse to write to him directly anything. It's the second time when he pretends he doesn't know what I'm saying. But as for you, and your message, the thing is that the followers of all religions can be salvated. You grew up as Muslim? Fine. You grew up as a Lutheran? Fine as well. One time the current pope said that agnostics can go to Heaven as well - he interpreted the part from the Catechism which says about seeking the God. So, according to the Church, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, an Orthodox Christian, a Protestant, as long as you live by your rules and follow the directives given by your religion. Anyway, at the end, all this discussion is pointless. If God exists, won't he know better?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 17:30:58 GMT
It's interesting watching two ex-Catholics discussing Catholicism since both are so different in responses. Hmm. Curious how divided real Catholics are now. I don't know, the protestants seemed to know division well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 17:46:10 GMT
The church as the body of Christ observes man as the image of God, through Jesus Christ, as the measurer of reality. With man's as the beginning, middle and end through Christ, it may be observed that the "Golden Rule" embodied in all religions but expression through Man as God and God as Man within Christianity observes that our own salvations are determined by our faith
The only difference between God and Man may simply be one of innocence and self-lessness if Christ is to be viewed as the Apex of humanity.
We can observe in scripture the acts of faith enabling man to form the reality around him according to his own choosing, which is further exemplified by the "faith the size of a mustard seed" parable, while in a seperate respect this faith alone does not lead to either innocence or justification as observed in the scriptural passage of "x without love" (observed by St. Paul?....going off of memory here).
This nature of Man as Image of God, hence a god (not God), if further implied in the tower of bable story and elsewhere in the old and new testament even quoted in scripture as:
Psalm 82:6-7 6"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' 7But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler."
John 10:34-35 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be set aside-
In these respects we form the judgements and standards which will be applied to us, while evidence in seperate religions, and this is apexed in Christianity. We are all responsible for our own salvation, and the salvation of others, regardless of religion as humanity itself is the body of Christ witnessed through virtue embodied through a unifying love. The Universal Church, observes the inherently divine and human elements within man, and provides a universal degree of mercy while accepting the diversity of the human condition.
It is this universal nature of the church which observes man as measurer, through his image of God (regardless of religion), forming the boundaries of his own salvation by where he places his faith. In these respects man is completely free and follows the image of his creator. The Catholic Church observes this, in my opinion, the fullest of the faiths in regards to its "doctrine".
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 13, 2018 19:27:46 GMT
It's interesting watching two ex-Catholics discussing Catholicism since both are so different in responses. Hmm. Curious how divided real Catholics are now. I don't know, the protestants seemed to know division well. Yes! Just what Christ wanted. Thanks for noticing Matthew 10:34-39 Christ Brings Division 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 13, 2018 20:43:46 GMT
ElizabethIt's not one former Catholic against other former Catholic. It's one ex-Catholic who tries to prove "he's the smartest everyone is a moron who'll rot in hell" and the guy who actually knows how the Catholic Church works since he wanted to join it and wear robes with pride and shit. I am not even going to respond to him after his last message, where he surely tries to piss me off. So since now I know I will just refuse to write to him directly anything. It's the second time when he pretends he doesn't know what I'm saying. But as for you, and your message, the thing is that the followers of all religions can be salvated. You grew up as Muslim? Fine. You grew up as a Lutheran? Fine as well. One time the current pope said that agnostics can go to Heaven as well - he interpreted the part from the Catechism which says about seeking the God. So, according to the Church, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, an Orthodox Christian, a Protestant, as long as you live by your rules and follow the directives given by your religion. Anyway, at the end, all this discussion is pointless. If God exists, won't he know better? “he's the smartest everyone is a moron who'll rot in hell” I apologize if I came off that way, I wasn’t trying to. We just disagree. I read the CCC, have read and listened to what the popes have said, have spoken with practicing Catholics about the Catholic Church, and they all seem to be contrary to what is written in the Bible. I’ll just leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 22:08:03 GMT
I don't know, the protestants seemed to know division well. Yes! Just what Christ wanted. Thanks for noticing Matthew 10:34-39 Christ Brings Division 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. I wouldn't flatter yourself: www.wired.com/2008/06/christian-theologians-prepare-for-extraterrestrial-life/The Catholic Church is pushing the limits of theology and reason and have been for a while.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 13, 2018 22:14:30 GMT
Yes! Just what Christ wanted. Thanks for noticing Matthew 10:34-39 Christ Brings Division 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. I wouldn't flatter yourself: www.wired.com/2008/06/christian-theologians-prepare-for-extraterrestrial-life/The Catholic Church is pushing the limits of theology and reason and have been for a while. Aliens? Yeah I'm ok not even going into weird level of the human mind. Christ is the new Adam. It only applies to people from Adam not some weird aliens from elsewhere who are not from Adam. I divide from this belief too then Shrug
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