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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 5, 2018 2:49:59 GMT
How do we know this? Because in the scriptures prophets, apostles, and even Christ Himself refer to the scriptures over and over when making points. We can start with the phrase “it is written” which is used in both the OT and the NT over 80 times. Here is every time it is used in the OT; Joshua 8:31 KJV [31] As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the Lord , and sacrificed peace offerings. 1 Kings 2:3 KJV [3] And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself: 2 Kings 23:21 KJV [21] And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the Lord your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 2 Chronicles 23:18 KJV [18] Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the Lord by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the Lord , to offer the burnt offerings of the Lord , as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David. 2 Chronicles 25:4 KJV [4] But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin. 2 Chronicles 31:3 KJV [3] He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit , for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the Lord . 2 Chronicles 35:12 KJV [12] And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the Lord , as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen. 2 Chronicles 35:12 KJV [12] And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the Lord , as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen. Ezra 3:2 KJV [2] Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God. Ezra 3:4 KJV [4] They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required; Ezra 6:18 KJV [18] And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses. Nehemiah 8:15 KJV [15] And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written. Nehemiah 10:34 KJV [34] And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the Lord our God, as it is written in the law: Nehemiah 10:36 KJV [36] Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God: Isaiah 65:6 KJV [6] Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Jeremiah 25:13 KJV [13] And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. Daniel 9:13 KJV [13] As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. As you can see, throughout the OT the scriptures are used as an authority. Why is this? Well because the scriptures are God’s word. 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: And in case you had any doubts about the word “inspiration”, God’s word is preserved for ever. Psalm 12:6-7 KJV [6] The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [7] Thou shalt keep them, O Lord , thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. His word is right. Psalm 33:4 KJV [4] For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth. He spoke heaven and everything therein into existence, Psalm 33:6 KJV [6] By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. ..along with everything else. Genesis 1:3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26 KJV [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. [24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. We should praise His word. Psalm 56:10 KJV [10] In God will I praise his word: in the Lord will I praise his word. God’s word has been published. Psalm 68:11 KJV [11] The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it . Acts 13:49 KJV [49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. Salvation is according to His word. Psalm 119:41 KJV [41] Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord , even thy salvation, according to thy word. We can only be given understanding through His word. Psalm 119:169 KJV [169] Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord : give me understanding according to thy word. Over and over the word of the Lord is preached, taught, and glorified, Acts 8:25 KJV [25] And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans. Acts 13:48 KJV [48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 15:35 KJV [35] Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also. Acts 15:36 KJV [36] And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do. The doctrine of God is referred to as the authority, 1 Timothy 6:1-3 KJV [1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. [2] And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them , because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. [3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; The scriptures are referred to as an authority all throughout the NT, even by Christ Himself, Matthew 21:42 KJV [42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 22:29 KJV [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Mark 12:10 KJV [10] And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: Mark 12:24 KJV [24] And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? Mark 14:49 KJV [49] I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. John 2:22 KJV [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. John 5:39 KJV [39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 7:38 KJV [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:42 KJV [42] Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? John 13:18 KJV [18] I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. John 17:12 KJV [12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 19:24 KJV [24] They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did. John 19:28 KJV [28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. John 19:36 KJV [36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. John 19:37 KJV [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. John 20:9 KJV [9] For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. Romans 4:3 KJV [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 10:11 KJV [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Galatians 3:22 KJV [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Isn’t this just overwhelming? Seems very very clear that doctrine, the scriptures, the word of the Lord, God’s word is the authority. It is written... Matthew 4:4 KJV [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:6 KJV [6] And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matthew 4:7 KJV [7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matthew 4:10 KJV [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 21:13 KJV [13] And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Mark 7:6 KJV [6] He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Mark 9:12 KJV [12] And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. John 6:45 KJV [45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Acts 1:20 KJV [20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 7:42 KJV [42] Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Acts 13:33 KJV [33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Romans 1:17 KJV [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 3:4 KJV [4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. There are a lot more verses that I have not shared here that refer to what is written as the authority. So there can only be one conclusion, and that is the Bible is the authority, not theologians, not church fathers, not ecumenical councils, not any church, not any creed, not any man, but God’s word. The Holy Bible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 15:49:48 GMT
A steward, that which is responsible on behalf of another, is a mediator. We’re talking about prayer here dude See above post.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 15:51:28 GMT
, look at what is said.. John 2:4-5 KJV [4] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. [5] His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it . Where does it say anything about prayer? Where does it say saints in heaven can hear our prayers? Where does it say saints in heaven pray for saints on earth? This is ridiculous.
The act of intercessory prayer extends further to God's People, ie Mary in this circumstance, considering they/She are still alive.
The act of mediation, where we ask one to intercede for us is evidenced in these scriptures. Part of this intercession is observed in the act of pray itself. We can observe this further through the Church as the body of Christ
You’re ignoring my questions now shrug
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 15:54:24 GMT
The act of intercessory prayer extends further to God's People, ie Mary in this circumstance, considering they/She are still alive.
The act of mediation, where we ask one to intercede for us is evidenced in these scriptures. Part of this intercession is observed in the act of pray itself. We can observe this further through the Church as the body of Christ
You’re ignoring my questions now No, I answered them directly. Asking one to prayer for you to Jesus, is no different than the context of the wedding where the members of the wedding asked Mary to have Jesus intercede for them or help them. Or Mary observing the trouble of the participants, due to their complaints to her, and asking Jesus to intercede. Considering Jesus was present in the flesh, the act of intercession to Jesus is synonymous to prayer considering prayer is a dialogue with God.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 15:59:05 GMT
You’re ignoring my questions now No, I answered them directly. Asking one to prayer for you to Jesus, is no different than the context of the wedding where the members of the wedding asked Mary to have Jesus intercede for them or help them. Or Mary observing the trouble of the participants, due to their complaints to her, and asking Jesus to intercede. Considering Jesus was present in the flesh, the act of intercession to Jesus is synonymous to prayer considering prayer is a dialogue with God. I’ll ask you one more time, if you can’t answer these questions we’re done talking; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 16:07:22 GMT
No, I answered them directly. Asking one to prayer for you to Jesus, is no different than the context of the wedding where the members of the wedding asked Mary to have Jesus intercede for them or help them. Or Mary observing the trouble of the participants, due to their complaints to her, and asking Jesus to intercede. Considering Jesus was present in the flesh, the act of intercession to Jesus is synonymous to prayer considering prayer is a dialogue with God. I’ll ask you one more time, if you can’t answer these questions we’re done talking; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
For future reference studying the basics of logic helps avoid quoting innumerable verses of scripture (in this case 51 verses).
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 16:13:03 GMT
I’ll ask you one more time, if you can’t answer these questions we’re done talking; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
For future reference studying the basics of logic helps avoid quoting innumerable verses of scripture (in this case 51 verses).
I’m having difficulty finding the exact verses that answer my questions. Can you post them here please? “studying the basics of logic helps avoid quoting innumerable verses of scripture” It is logical to quote exact scriptures for which point you are trying to argue. The link you provided quotes scripture that has nothing to do with the questions I asked. I would call this laziness on your part shrug
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 16:16:01 GMT
I'll highlight the first few...the rest are just extras but get the point across regardless. Revelation 8:3-4 ESV / 44 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense t o offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. James 5:16 ESV / 36 helpful votes Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 32 helpful votes For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Revelation 5:8 ESV / 23 helpful votes ****The Church is the Body of Christ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.Revelation 8:4 ESV / 22 helpful votes And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Revelation 8:3 ESV / 21 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, Hebrews 12:1 ESV / 21 helpful votes Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 20 helpful votes Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. 1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 19 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 15 helpful votes Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Revelation 8:1-13 ESV / 11 helpful votes When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. ... Hebrews 12:22-24 ESV / 11 helpful votes But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 ESV / 11 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Romans 8:34 ESV / 11 helpful votes Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Romans 8:38-39 ESV / 9 helpful votes For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 15:30 ESV / 8 helpful votes I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, Revelation 6:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Job 42:8 ESV / 7 helpful votes Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” Jude 1:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Matthew 6:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Colossians 1:9-12 ESV / 5 helpful votes And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. Daniel 9:1-27 ESV / 5 helpful votes In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. ... Exodus 32:30 ESV / 5 helpful votes The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Exodus 10:17-18 ESV / 5 helpful votes Now therefore, forgive my sin, please, only this once, and plead with the Lord your God only to remove this death from me.” So he went out from Pharaoh and pleaded with the Lord. Revelation 22:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes Through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 14:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Hebrews 13:18 ESV / 4 helpful votes Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. Hebrews 11:35 ESV / 4 helpful votes Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Philemon 1:22 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you. 1 Thessalonians 1:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, Colossians 4:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God. Colossians 4:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison— Romans 10:1 ESV / 4 helpful votes Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. John 14:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ... John 9:31 ESV / 4 helpful votes We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Matthew 5:44 ESV / 4 helpful votes But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matthew 3:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Jeremiah 42:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes And said to Jeremiah the prophet, “Let our plea for mercy come before you, and pray to the Lord your God for us, for all this remnant—because we are left with but a few, as your eyes see us— Jeremiah 15:1-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then the Lord said to me, “Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go! And when they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: “‘Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence, and those who are for the sword, to the sword; those who are for famine, to famine, and those who are for captivity, to captivity.’ I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, declares the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to tear, and the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy. And I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem. “Who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem, or who will grieve for you? Who will turn aside to ask about your welfare? ... Nehemiah 1:5-6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. 1 Kings 13:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the king said to the man of God, “Entreat now the favor of the Lord your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.” And the man of God entreated the Lord, and the king's hand was restored to him and became as it was before. 2 Samuel 24:25 ESV / 4 helpful votes And David built there an altar to the Lord and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord responded to the plea for the land, and the plague was averted from Israel. 1 Samuel 12:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way. 1 Samuel 7:8-9 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.” So Samuel took a nursing lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. And Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him. 1 Samuel 7:5 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Samuel said, “Gather all Israel at Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” Deuteronomy 9:18-20 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then I lay prostrate before the Lord as before, forty days and forty nights. I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin that you had committed, in doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord to provoke him to anger. For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure that the Lord bore against you, so that he was ready to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me that time also. And the Lord was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him. And I prayed for Aaron also at the same time. Numbers 21:7-8 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” Numbers 21:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Genesis 20:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. Genesis 20:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 18:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Hebrews 11:1-40 ESV / 3 helpful votes Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ... 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 ESV / 3 helpful votes Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 ESV / 3 helpful votes To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 12:5 ESV / 3 helpful votes So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church. Revelation 19:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 ESV / 2 helpful votes Brothers, pray for us. Galatians 5:1-26 ESV / 2 helpful votes For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. ... John 3:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 16:37:43 GMT
I'll highlight the first few...the rest are just extras but get the point across regardless. Revelation 8:3-4 ESV / 44 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense t o offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. James 5:16 ESV / 36 helpful votes Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 32 helpful votes For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Revelation 5:8 ESV / 23 helpful votes ****The Church is the Body of Christ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.Revelation 8:4 ESV / 22 helpful votes And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Revelation 8:3 ESV / 21 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, Hebrews 12:1 ESV / 21 helpful votes Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 20 helpful votes Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. 1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 19 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 15 helpful votes Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Revelation 8:1-13 ESV / 11 helpful votes When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. ... Hebrews 12:22-24 ESV / 11 helpful votes But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 ESV / 11 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Romans 8:34 ESV / 11 helpful votes Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Romans 8:38-39 ESV / 9 helpful votes For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 15:30 ESV / 8 helpful votes I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, Revelation 6:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Job 42:8 ESV / 7 helpful votes Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” Jude 1:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Matthew 6:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Colossians 1:9-12 ESV / 5 helpful votes And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. Daniel 9:1-27 ESV / 5 helpful votes In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. ... Exodus 32:30 ESV / 5 helpful votes The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Exodus 10:17-18 ESV / 5 helpful votes Now therefore, forgive my sin, please, only this once, and plead with the Lord your God only to remove this death from me.” So he went out from Pharaoh and pleaded with the Lord. Revelation 22:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes Through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 14:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Hebrews 13:18 ESV / 4 helpful votes Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. Hebrews 11:35 ESV / 4 helpful votes Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Philemon 1:22 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you. 1 Thessalonians 1:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, Colossians 4:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God. Colossians 4:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison— Romans 10:1 ESV / 4 helpful votes Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. John 14:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ... John 9:31 ESV / 4 helpful votes We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Matthew 5:44 ESV / 4 helpful votes But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matthew 3:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Jeremiah 42:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes And said to Jeremiah the prophet, “Let our plea for mercy come before you, and pray to the Lord your God for us, for all this remnant—because we are left with but a few, as your eyes see us— Jeremiah 15:1-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then the Lord said to me, “Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go! And when they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: “‘Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence, and those who are for the sword, to the sword; those who are for famine, to famine, and those who are for captivity, to captivity.’ I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, declares the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to tear, and the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy. And I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem. “Who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem, or who will grieve for you? Who will turn aside to ask about your welfare? ... Nehemiah 1:5-6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. 1 Kings 13:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the king said to the man of God, “Entreat now the favor of the Lord your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.” And the man of God entreated the Lord, and the king's hand was restored to him and became as it was before. 2 Samuel 24:25 ESV / 4 helpful votes And David built there an altar to the Lord and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord responded to the plea for the land, and the plague was averted from Israel. 1 Samuel 12:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way. 1 Samuel 7:8-9 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.” So Samuel took a nursing lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. And Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him. 1 Samuel 7:5 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Samuel said, “Gather all Israel at Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” Deuteronomy 9:18-20 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then I lay prostrate before the Lord as before, forty days and forty nights. I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin that you had committed, in doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord to provoke him to anger. For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure that the Lord bore against you, so that he was ready to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me that time also. And the Lord was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him. And I prayed for Aaron also at the same time. Numbers 21:7-8 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” Numbers 21:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Genesis 20:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. Genesis 20:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 18:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Hebrews 11:1-40 ESV / 3 helpful votes Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ... 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 ESV / 3 helpful votes Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 ESV / 3 helpful votes To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 12:5 ESV / 3 helpful votes So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church. Revelation 19:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 ESV / 2 helpful votes Brothers, pray for us. Galatians 5:1-26 ESV / 2 helpful votes For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. ... John 3:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Okay, the 3 you highlighted don’t answer my questions and 2 of them are the same. James 5:16 KJV [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Revelation 8:3-4 KJV [3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. My questions were; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? And, Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth? Where exactly in these 3 verses does it say saints in heaven can hear our prayers and saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 16:42:47 GMT
I'll highlight the first few...the rest are just extras but get the point across regardless. Revelation 8:3-4 ESV / 44 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense t o offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. James 5:16 ESV / 36 helpful votes Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 32 helpful votes For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Revelation 5:8 ESV / 23 helpful votes ****The Church is the Body of Christ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.Revelation 8:4 ESV / 22 helpful votes And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Revelation 8:3 ESV / 21 helpful votes And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, Hebrews 12:1 ESV / 21 helpful votes Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 20 helpful votes Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. 1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 19 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 15 helpful votes Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Revelation 8:1-13 ESV / 11 helpful votes When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. ... Hebrews 12:22-24 ESV / 11 helpful votes But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 ESV / 11 helpful votes First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Romans 8:34 ESV / 11 helpful votes Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Romans 8:38-39 ESV / 9 helpful votes For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 15:30 ESV / 8 helpful votes I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, Revelation 6:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Job 42:8 ESV / 7 helpful votes Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” Jude 1:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Matthew 6:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Colossians 1:9-12 ESV / 5 helpful votes And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. Daniel 9:1-27 ESV / 5 helpful votes In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. ... Exodus 32:30 ESV / 5 helpful votes The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Exodus 10:17-18 ESV / 5 helpful votes Now therefore, forgive my sin, please, only this once, and plead with the Lord your God only to remove this death from me.” So he went out from Pharaoh and pleaded with the Lord. Revelation 22:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes Through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 14:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Hebrews 13:18 ESV / 4 helpful votes Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. Hebrews 11:35 ESV / 4 helpful votes Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Philemon 1:22 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you. 1 Thessalonians 1:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, Colossians 4:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God. Colossians 4:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison— Romans 10:1 ESV / 4 helpful votes Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. John 14:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ... John 9:31 ESV / 4 helpful votes We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Matthew 5:44 ESV / 4 helpful votes But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matthew 3:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Jeremiah 42:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes And said to Jeremiah the prophet, “Let our plea for mercy come before you, and pray to the Lord your God for us, for all this remnant—because we are left with but a few, as your eyes see us— Jeremiah 15:1-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then the Lord said to me, “Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go! And when they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: “‘Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence, and those who are for the sword, to the sword; those who are for famine, to famine, and those who are for captivity, to captivity.’ I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, declares the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to tear, and the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy. And I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem. “Who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem, or who will grieve for you? Who will turn aside to ask about your welfare? ... Nehemiah 1:5-6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. 1 Kings 13:6 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the king said to the man of God, “Entreat now the favor of the Lord your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.” And the man of God entreated the Lord, and the king's hand was restored to him and became as it was before. 2 Samuel 24:25 ESV / 4 helpful votes And David built there an altar to the Lord and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord responded to the plea for the land, and the plague was averted from Israel. 1 Samuel 12:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way. 1 Samuel 7:8-9 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.” So Samuel took a nursing lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. And Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him. 1 Samuel 7:5 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Samuel said, “Gather all Israel at Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” Deuteronomy 9:18-20 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then I lay prostrate before the Lord as before, forty days and forty nights. I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin that you had committed, in doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord to provoke him to anger. For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure that the Lord bore against you, so that he was ready to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me that time also. And the Lord was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him. And I prayed for Aaron also at the same time. Numbers 21:7-8 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” Numbers 21:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. Genesis 20:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. Genesis 20:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 18:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Hebrews 11:1-40 ESV / 3 helpful votes Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ... 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 ESV / 3 helpful votes Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 ESV / 3 helpful votes To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 12:5 ESV / 3 helpful votes So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church. Revelation 19:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 1 Thessalonians 5:25 ESV / 2 helpful votes Brothers, pray for us. Galatians 5:1-26 ESV / 2 helpful votes For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. ... John 3:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Okay, the 3 you highlighted don’t answer my questions and 2 of them are the same. James 5:16 KJV [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Revelation 8:3-4 KJV [3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. My questions were; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? And, Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth? Where exactly in these 3 verses does it say saints in heaven can hear our prayers and saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
What is a saint? In the New Testament, the Greek word “hagios” is translated holy or saint. It means holy or most holy thing. It is applied to Christians throughout the New Testament (e.g. Act 9:13, 32, 41, 26:10, Rom. 1:7, 8:27, 12:13, 15:25, 26, 31, 16:2, 15, 1 Cor. 1:2, 1 Cor. 6:1, 2, 14:33, 16:1, 15, 2 Cor. 1:1, 2 Cor. 8:4, 9:1, 13, 13:13, Eph. 1:1, 15, 18, 2:19, 3:8, 18, 4:12, 5:3, 6:18, Phil. 1:1, 4:22, Col. 1:2, 4, 12, 26, 1 Thes. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:10, 1 Tim 5:10, Phm. 1:5, 7, Heb. 6:10, Heb. 13:24, Jud. 1:3, 14, Rev. 5:8, 8:3, 4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:7, 10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9). When we become Christians we are sanctified (Greek hagioazo, the verb form of hagios). Sanctification is a process which continues throughout our lives as Christians here on earth. Paul tells the Christians at Corinth and Rome that they “are sanctified in Jesus Christ, called to be saints” (1 Cor. 1:2, Romans 1:7). The saints on earth are saints in the making, while the saints in heaven are perfect, no longer struggling with sin, since they are in the presence of God.
All Christians ask other saints to pray for them. Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Armenians, Coptics, and all other groups that broke from the Church before the 1500s seek the intercession of saints in heaven and of the saints on earth. Some of the more recent groups of Christians, however, see no problem with asking other Christians on earth to pray for them, but never ask those in heaven to intercede for them. The Bible tells Christians to pray for each other. The saints in heaven don’t start disobeying this command once they get to heaven. They continue to pray for us still here on earth.
No Christian can say that they don’t need the saints, including those in heaven. Christians “are all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). The body of Christ is made of many members: “For the body also is not one member, but many. If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body? And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him. And if they all were one member, where would be the body? But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you” (1 Cor. 12:14-21). A saint does not cease being a member of the body of Christ when he goes home to his heavenly reward, and no Christian can say they don’t need that person (“the eye cannot say to the hand”). We are more radically joined to the saints in heaven and to those on earth than our fingers are joined to our hands.
In Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he tells Christians to intercede for each other: “I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.” (1 Cor. 2:1-11). Unfortunately some Christians start reading this statement starting at verse 5 where it says “For there is one God; and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus” and totally miss the point. The point is not that Christians cannot intercede for each other; Paul just asked them to do exactly that and said it is good and acceptable in the sight of God. The fact that Jesus is our one Mediator is used as a reason to show how we are able to intercede for each other. And as we shall see, saints don’t stop interceding when they make it to heaven. Whenever Jesus is described as our Mediator (Greek mesites) in the Bible, it is talking about how, by His shedding of blood on the cross, men were once again able to be reconciled with God (Gal. 3:19-20, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). Because we are in the one Mediator, Jesus Christ, we are able to intercede for all men, and are commanded to do so. Of course, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26-27) and so does Jesus (Rom. 8:34, Heb. 7:25, 1 John 2:1), but that doesn’t relieve Christians of the obligation to intercede for other men as Paul asks in 1 Tim 2:1.
Those in heaven do know what is happening on the earth and they do care. Jesus gave us two parables to demonstrate this. He explains these parables like this: “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance” (Luke 15:7) and “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:10). How often do people on the earth repent? Suppose Billy Graham has a stadium crusade with 100,000 in attendance. This event is broadcast all over the world by television. Tens of thousands, even millions of people could repent upon hearing him preach. Those in heaven would know about each and every repentant sinner. How do they know who really repents? We don’t know for sure, but Scripture gives us some hints that those in heaven do not have the limitations those on earth have now. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matt. 22:30). “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor 2:9). “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
Rachel was long dead (see Gen. 48:7) and departed from the earth during the Babylonian exile when Jeremiah wrote: “Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, [and] bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they [were] not. Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.” (Jeremiah 31:15-16). The Lord answered her prayer. Again when Herod slaughtered the innocents, Matthew tells us: “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not” (Matthew 2:18). In the story about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, we see that even the rich man in hell showed concern for the people still living. Wouldn’t the people in heaven show more concern? Wouldn’t they pray for us? Jesus tells us to careful what we do to little children since they have their guardian angels interceding to the Father for them. “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
The word “pray” simply means to ask. It comes from the Latin word “precari” meaning “request.” The main definition according to Webster’s Collegiate dictionary (and any other good dictionary is “ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>.” When we “pray” to the saints in heaven, we merely ask them for a request so they can pray to God along with us. We pray to God as an expression of our adoration of God and offer prayers of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. We honor the saints, but we don’t give them the worship due to God alone.
In the Old Covenant the Jews were awaiting the Messiah so that they could go to heaven. In the temple they prayed and sang Psalms to angels who were the only saints in heaven then (see Daniel 4:13) with the possible exception of Elijah (2 King 2:11) and Enoch (Gen. 5:24). Here are a couple of examples.
“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure” (Psalm 103:20-21).
“Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts” (Psalm 148:1-2).
In the New Covenant we find the human saints (Rev. 5:8) in heaven and the angel saints (Rev. 8:3-4) in heaven offering to God the prayers of those still on earth: “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Rev. 5:8) and “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.” (Rev. 8:3-4). If we aren’t permitted to direct our prayers to them, where do they get our prayers? Those prayers are those of the saints on earth since the saints in heaven no longer need prayers.
Why not just pray to the Father in Jesus’ name? We do pray directly to God. But we also realize that our prayers are more powerful when joined with others. As Jesus tells us, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:19). All prayers are not the same. We know “the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much” (James 5:16). Those saints in heaven have already been made perfect (Heb. 11:40, 12:23). On earth the saints continue to sin: “For a just [man] falleth seven times” (Proverbs 24:16). Sin effects the effectiveness of our prayers: “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]” (Psalm 66:18) and “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight” (1 John 3:22). We seek prayer partners in the presence of God who have ceased from all sin, along with prayer partners on earth.
When we pray and worship, we are not only with God, but also with the angels and human saints in heaven. After describing the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11, Paul (or the author of Hebrews) tells us: “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2). When we are looking to Jesus and have our eyes on Jesus we are surrounded by these saints in heaven. Is it polite to ignore them as they cheer us on? “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.” (Heb. 12:22-24). Notice that in our worship and prayer, we don’t just come to Jesus, but to innumerable companies of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect (i.e. the saints in heaven).
Some will argue that the Bible forbids contact with the dead since necromancy is forbidden in Deut. 18:10-11. If one reads the context, one will see that this is forbidding contacting the dead as through a medium as at a séance. Moses died (Deut. 34:5), but that didn’t stop Jesus from communicating with him and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration. (Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9). What was Jesus talking to these “dead” guys about? They were talking about our salvation, i.e. His “exodus” (Luke 9:31). The saints are not dead; they are more alive than we are. The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. Jesus told them, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.” (Luke 20:36-38).
Should we honor the saints in heaven, or should all of the honor and glory go to God? God receives more honor and glory by raising up honorable children. Jesus became man to share His glory with us. Jesus told this parable: “And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee: Give this man place. And then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee. Because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 14:7-11). Jesus tells us to humble ourselves so that we may “have glory.”
Paul promises glory and honor to those who live the Christian life: “But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God: Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory and honour and peace to every one that worketh good: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Romans 2:5-11). Peter promises Christians: “And when the prince of pastors shall appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.” (1 Peter 5:4).
Paul writes to the Corinthians: “And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.” (1 Cor 12:23) and “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor. 12:26). Christians must rejoice when other Christians are honored. The Ten Commandments tell us to worship only God. The first commandment describing our duties to other men tells us to “honor your father and mother.” Scripture is clear that we don’t give the same level of honor to everyone: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17).
In our society, we honor sports stars, politicians, military heroes, actors, musicians, singers, and almost everyone except those who are examples of the Christian life. Don’t we have things backwards? The Bible tells us to imitate these other Christians. Paul tells the Corinthians: “Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye imitators of me as I also am of Christ. For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord. Who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus: as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:16-17). Later he tells them: “Be ye imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Cor. 11:1-2). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). The book of Hebrews tells us: “Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith imitate” (Hebrews 13:7).
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 16:55:36 GMT
Okay, the 3 you highlighted don’t answer my questions and 2 of them are the same. James 5:16 KJV [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Revelation 8:3-4 KJV [3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. My questions were; Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven can hear our prayers? And, Where does it say in scripture that saints in heaven pray for saints on earth? Where exactly in these 3 verses does it say saints in heaven can hear our prayers and saints in heaven pray for saints on earth?
What is a saint? In the New Testament, the Greek word “hagios” is translated holy or saint. It means holy or most holy thing. It is applied to Christians throughout the New Testament (e.g. Act 9:13, 32, 41, 26:10, Rom. 1:7, 8:27, 12:13, 15:25, 26, 31, 16:2, 15, 1 Cor. 1:2, 1 Cor. 6:1, 2, 14:33, 16:1, 15, 2 Cor. 1:1, 2 Cor. 8:4, 9:1, 13, 13:13, Eph. 1:1, 15, 18, 2:19, 3:8, 18, 4:12, 5:3, 6:18, Phil. 1:1, 4:22, Col. 1:2, 4, 12, 26, 1 Thes. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:10, 1 Tim 5:10, Phm. 1:5, 7, Heb. 6:10, Heb. 13:24, Jud. 1:3, 14, Rev. 5:8, 8:3, 4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:7, 10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9). When we become Christians we are sanctified (Greek hagioazo, the verb form of hagios). Sanctification is a process which continues throughout our lives as Christians here on earth. Paul tells the Christians at Corinth and Rome that they “are sanctified in Jesus Christ, called to be saints” (1 Cor. 1:2, Romans 1:7). The saints on earth are saints in the making, while the saints in heaven are perfect, no longer struggling with sin, since they are in the presence of God.
All Christians ask other saints to pray for them. Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Armenians, Coptics, and all other groups that broke from the Church before the 1500s seek the intercession of saints in heaven and of the saints on earth. Some of the more recent groups of Christians, however, see no problem with asking other Christians on earth to pray for them, but never ask those in heaven to intercede for them. The Bible tells Christians to pray for each other. The saints in heaven don’t start disobeying this command once they get to heaven. They continue to pray for us still here on earth.
No Christian can say that they don’t need the saints, including those in heaven. Christians “are all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). The body of Christ is made of many members: “For the body also is not one member, but many. If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body? And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him. And if they all were one member, where would be the body? But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you” (1 Cor. 12:14-21). A saint does not cease being a member of the body of Christ when he goes home to his heavenly reward, and no Christian can say they don’t need that person (“the eye cannot say to the hand”). We are more radically joined to the saints in heaven and to those on earth than our fingers are joined to our hands.
In Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he tells Christians to intercede for each other: “I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.” (1 Cor. 2:1-11). Unfortunately some Christians start reading this statement starting at verse 5 where it says “For there is one God; and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus” and totally miss the point. The point is not that Christians cannot intercede for each other; Paul just asked them to do exactly that and said it is good and acceptable in the sight of God. The fact that Jesus is our one Mediator is used as a reason to show how we are able to intercede for each other. And as we shall see, saints don’t stop interceding when they make it to heaven. Whenever Jesus is described as our Mediator (Greek mesites) in the Bible, it is talking about how, by His shedding of blood on the cross, men were once again able to be reconciled with God (Gal. 3:19-20, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). Because we are in the one Mediator, Jesus Christ, we are able to intercede for all men, and are commanded to do so. Of course, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26-27) and so does Jesus (Rom. 8:34, Heb. 7:25, 1 John 2:1), but that doesn’t relieve Christians of the obligation to intercede for other men as Paul asks in 1 Tim 2:1.
Those in heaven do know what is happening on the earth and they do care. Jesus gave us two parables to demonstrate this. He explains these parables like this: “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance” (Luke 15:7) and “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:10). How often do people on the earth repent? Suppose Billy Graham has a stadium crusade with 100,000 in attendance. This event is broadcast all over the world by television. Tens of thousands, even millions of people could repent upon hearing him preach. Those in heaven would know about each and every repentant sinner. How do they know who really repents? We don’t know for sure, but Scripture gives us some hints that those in heaven do not have the limitations those on earth have now. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matt. 22:30). “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor 2:9). “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
Rachel was long dead (see Gen. 48:7) and departed from the earth during the Babylonian exile when Jeremiah wrote: “Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, [and] bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they [were] not. Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.” (Jeremiah 31:15-16). The Lord answered her prayer. Again when Herod slaughtered the innocents, Matthew tells us: “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not” (Matthew 2:18). In the story about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, we see that even the rich man in hell showed concern for the people still living. Wouldn’t the people in heaven show more concern? Wouldn’t they pray for us? Jesus tells us to careful what we do to little children since they have their guardian angels interceding to the Father for them. “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
The word “pray” simply means to ask. It comes from the Latin word “precari” meaning “request.” The main definition according to Webster’s Collegiate dictionary (and any other good dictionary is “ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>.” When we “pray” to the saints in heaven, we merely ask them for a request so they can pray to God along with us. We pray to God as an expression of our adoration of God and offer prayers of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. We honor the saints, but we don’t give them the worship due to God alone.
In the Old Covenant the Jews were awaiting the Messiah so that they could go to heaven. In the temple they prayed and sang Psalms to angels who were the only saints in heaven then (see Daniel 4:13) with the possible exception of Elijah (2 King 2:11) and Enoch (Gen. 5:24). Here are a couple of examples.
“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure” (Psalm 103:20-21).
“Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts” (Psalm 148:1-2).
In the New Covenant we find the human saints (Rev. 5:8) in heaven and the angel saints (Rev. 8:3-4) in heaven offering to God the prayers of those still on earth: “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Rev. 5:8) and “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.” (Rev. 8:3-4). If we aren’t permitted to direct our prayers to them, where do they get our prayers? Those prayers are those of the saints on earth since the saints in heaven no longer need prayers.
Why not just pray to the Father in Jesus’ name? We do pray directly to God. But we also realize that our prayers are more powerful when joined with others. As Jesus tells us, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:19). All prayers are not the same. We know “the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much” (James 5:16). Those saints in heaven have already been made perfect (Heb. 11:40, 12:23). On earth the saints continue to sin: “For a just [man] falleth seven times” (Proverbs 24:16). Sin effects the effectiveness of our prayers: “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]” (Psalm 66:18) and “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight” (1 John 3:22). We seek prayer partners in the presence of God who have ceased from all sin, along with prayer partners on earth.
When we pray and worship, we are not only with God, but also with the angels and human saints in heaven. After describing the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11, Paul (or the author of Hebrews) tells us: “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2). When we are looking to Jesus and have our eyes on Jesus we are surrounded by these saints in heaven. Is it polite to ignore them as they cheer us on? “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.” (Heb. 12:22-24). Notice that in our worship and prayer, we don’t just come to Jesus, but to innumerable companies of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect (i.e. the saints in heaven).
Some will argue that the Bible forbids contact with the dead since necromancy is forbidden in Deut. 18:10-11. If one reads the context, one will see that this is forbidding contacting the dead as through a medium as at a séance. Moses died (Deut. 34:5), but that didn’t stop Jesus from communicating with him and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration. (Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9). What was Jesus talking to these “dead” guys about? They were talking about our salvation, i.e. His “exodus” (Luke 9:31). The saints are not dead; they are more alive than we are. The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. Jesus told them, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.” (Luke 20:36-38).
Should we honor the saints in heaven, or should all of the honor and glory go to God? God receives more honor and glory by raising up honorable children. Jesus became man to share His glory with us. Jesus told this parable: “And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee: Give this man place. And then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee. Because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 14:7-11). Jesus tells us to humble ourselves so that we may “have glory.”
Paul promises glory and honor to those who live the Christian life: “But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God: Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory and honour and peace to every one that worketh good: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Romans 2:5-11). Peter promises Christians: “And when the prince of pastors shall appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.” (1 Peter 5:4).
Paul writes to the Corinthians: “And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.” (1 Cor 12:23) and “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor. 12:26). Christians must rejoice when other Christians are honored. The Ten Commandments tell us to worship only God. The first commandment describing our duties to other men tells us to “honor your father and mother.” Scripture is clear that we don’t give the same level of honor to everyone: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17).
In our society, we honor sports stars, politicians, military heroes, actors, musicians, singers, and almost everyone except those who are examples of the Christian life. Don’t we have things backwards? The Bible tells us to imitate these other Christians. Paul tells the Corinthians: “Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye imitators of me as I also am of Christ. For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord. Who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus: as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:16-17). Later he tells them: “Be ye imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Cor. 11:1-2). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). The book of Hebrews tells us: “Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith imitate” (Hebrews 13:7).
Unfortunately within that wall of text my questions still weren’t answered. Perhaps you can point out exactly where my questions were answered if I happened to miss it. You also still have the problem of 1 Timothy 2:5 which says, [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Is it traditional for you to ignore this verse? If so, then there is no reason to continue the discussion, Luke 4:4 KJV [4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jun 11, 2018 16:57:50 GMT
DKTrav88Dude Prayer is any appeal to a spiritual being! When we pray to God as Creator and Savior, a prayer to this holy appeal for help, but in any Orthodox prayer Jesus is mentioned as a savior.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jun 11, 2018 17:03:07 GMT
Maria said that she will be blessed with all births. This does not contradict prayer in the sense that I write higher
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 17:03:58 GMT
What is a saint? In the New Testament, the Greek word “hagios” is translated holy or saint. It means holy or most holy thing. It is applied to Christians throughout the New Testament (e.g. Act 9:13, 32, 41, 26:10, Rom. 1:7, 8:27, 12:13, 15:25, 26, 31, 16:2, 15, 1 Cor. 1:2, 1 Cor. 6:1, 2, 14:33, 16:1, 15, 2 Cor. 1:1, 2 Cor. 8:4, 9:1, 13, 13:13, Eph. 1:1, 15, 18, 2:19, 3:8, 18, 4:12, 5:3, 6:18, Phil. 1:1, 4:22, Col. 1:2, 4, 12, 26, 1 Thes. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:10, 1 Tim 5:10, Phm. 1:5, 7, Heb. 6:10, Heb. 13:24, Jud. 1:3, 14, Rev. 5:8, 8:3, 4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:7, 10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9). When we become Christians we are sanctified (Greek hagioazo, the verb form of hagios). Sanctification is a process which continues throughout our lives as Christians here on earth. Paul tells the Christians at Corinth and Rome that they “are sanctified in Jesus Christ, called to be saints” (1 Cor. 1:2, Romans 1:7). The saints on earth are saints in the making, while the saints in heaven are perfect, no longer struggling with sin, since they are in the presence of God.
All Christians ask other saints to pray for them. Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Armenians, Coptics, and all other groups that broke from the Church before the 1500s seek the intercession of saints in heaven and of the saints on earth. Some of the more recent groups of Christians, however, see no problem with asking other Christians on earth to pray for them, but never ask those in heaven to intercede for them. The Bible tells Christians to pray for each other. The saints in heaven don’t start disobeying this command once they get to heaven. They continue to pray for us still here on earth.
No Christian can say that they don’t need the saints, including those in heaven. Christians “are all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13). The body of Christ is made of many members: “For the body also is not one member, but many. If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body? And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him. And if they all were one member, where would be the body? But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you” (1 Cor. 12:14-21). A saint does not cease being a member of the body of Christ when he goes home to his heavenly reward, and no Christian can say they don’t need that person (“the eye cannot say to the hand”). We are more radically joined to the saints in heaven and to those on earth than our fingers are joined to our hands.
In Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he tells Christians to intercede for each other: “I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle (I say the truth, I lie not), a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.” (1 Cor. 2:1-11). Unfortunately some Christians start reading this statement starting at verse 5 where it says “For there is one God; and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus” and totally miss the point. The point is not that Christians cannot intercede for each other; Paul just asked them to do exactly that and said it is good and acceptable in the sight of God. The fact that Jesus is our one Mediator is used as a reason to show how we are able to intercede for each other. And as we shall see, saints don’t stop interceding when they make it to heaven. Whenever Jesus is described as our Mediator (Greek mesites) in the Bible, it is talking about how, by His shedding of blood on the cross, men were once again able to be reconciled with God (Gal. 3:19-20, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). Because we are in the one Mediator, Jesus Christ, we are able to intercede for all men, and are commanded to do so. Of course, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26-27) and so does Jesus (Rom. 8:34, Heb. 7:25, 1 John 2:1), but that doesn’t relieve Christians of the obligation to intercede for other men as Paul asks in 1 Tim 2:1.
Those in heaven do know what is happening on the earth and they do care. Jesus gave us two parables to demonstrate this. He explains these parables like this: “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance” (Luke 15:7) and “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:10). How often do people on the earth repent? Suppose Billy Graham has a stadium crusade with 100,000 in attendance. This event is broadcast all over the world by television. Tens of thousands, even millions of people could repent upon hearing him preach. Those in heaven would know about each and every repentant sinner. How do they know who really repents? We don’t know for sure, but Scripture gives us some hints that those in heaven do not have the limitations those on earth have now. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matt. 22:30). “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor 2:9). “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
Rachel was long dead (see Gen. 48:7) and departed from the earth during the Babylonian exile when Jeremiah wrote: “Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, [and] bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they [were] not. Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.” (Jeremiah 31:15-16). The Lord answered her prayer. Again when Herod slaughtered the innocents, Matthew tells us: “In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not” (Matthew 2:18). In the story about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, we see that even the rich man in hell showed concern for the people still living. Wouldn’t the people in heaven show more concern? Wouldn’t they pray for us? Jesus tells us to careful what we do to little children since they have their guardian angels interceding to the Father for them. “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
The word “pray” simply means to ask. It comes from the Latin word “precari” meaning “request.” The main definition according to Webster’s Collegiate dictionary (and any other good dictionary is “ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>.” When we “pray” to the saints in heaven, we merely ask them for a request so they can pray to God along with us. We pray to God as an expression of our adoration of God and offer prayers of praise and thanksgiving, intercession and petition. We honor the saints, but we don’t give them the worship due to God alone.
In the Old Covenant the Jews were awaiting the Messiah so that they could go to heaven. In the temple they prayed and sang Psalms to angels who were the only saints in heaven then (see Daniel 4:13) with the possible exception of Elijah (2 King 2:11) and Enoch (Gen. 5:24). Here are a couple of examples.
“Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure” (Psalm 103:20-21).
“Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts” (Psalm 148:1-2).
In the New Covenant we find the human saints (Rev. 5:8) in heaven and the angel saints (Rev. 8:3-4) in heaven offering to God the prayers of those still on earth: “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Rev. 5:8) and “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.” (Rev. 8:3-4). If we aren’t permitted to direct our prayers to them, where do they get our prayers? Those prayers are those of the saints on earth since the saints in heaven no longer need prayers.
Why not just pray to the Father in Jesus’ name? We do pray directly to God. But we also realize that our prayers are more powerful when joined with others. As Jesus tells us, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:19). All prayers are not the same. We know “the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much” (James 5:16). Those saints in heaven have already been made perfect (Heb. 11:40, 12:23). On earth the saints continue to sin: “For a just [man] falleth seven times” (Proverbs 24:16). Sin effects the effectiveness of our prayers: “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]” (Psalm 66:18) and “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight” (1 John 3:22). We seek prayer partners in the presence of God who have ceased from all sin, along with prayer partners on earth.
When we pray and worship, we are not only with God, but also with the angels and human saints in heaven. After describing the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11, Paul (or the author of Hebrews) tells us: “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2). When we are looking to Jesus and have our eyes on Jesus we are surrounded by these saints in heaven. Is it polite to ignore them as they cheer us on? “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.” (Heb. 12:22-24). Notice that in our worship and prayer, we don’t just come to Jesus, but to innumerable companies of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect (i.e. the saints in heaven).
Some will argue that the Bible forbids contact with the dead since necromancy is forbidden in Deut. 18:10-11. If one reads the context, one will see that this is forbidding contacting the dead as through a medium as at a séance. Moses died (Deut. 34:5), but that didn’t stop Jesus from communicating with him and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration. (Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9). What was Jesus talking to these “dead” guys about? They were talking about our salvation, i.e. His “exodus” (Luke 9:31). The saints are not dead; they are more alive than we are. The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. Jesus told them, “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.” (Luke 20:36-38).
Should we honor the saints in heaven, or should all of the honor and glory go to God? God receives more honor and glory by raising up honorable children. Jesus became man to share His glory with us. Jesus told this parable: “And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee: Give this man place. And then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee. Because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 14:7-11). Jesus tells us to humble ourselves so that we may “have glory.”
Paul promises glory and honor to those who live the Christian life: “But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God: Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory and honour and peace to every one that worketh good: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Romans 2:5-11). Peter promises Christians: “And when the prince of pastors shall appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.” (1 Peter 5:4).
Paul writes to the Corinthians: “And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.” (1 Cor 12:23) and “And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor. 12:26). Christians must rejoice when other Christians are honored. The Ten Commandments tell us to worship only God. The first commandment describing our duties to other men tells us to “honor your father and mother.” Scripture is clear that we don’t give the same level of honor to everyone: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17).
In our society, we honor sports stars, politicians, military heroes, actors, musicians, singers, and almost everyone except those who are examples of the Christian life. Don’t we have things backwards? The Bible tells us to imitate these other Christians. Paul tells the Corinthians: “Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye imitators of me as I also am of Christ. For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord. Who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus: as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Cor. 4:16-17). Later he tells them: “Be ye imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Cor. 11:1-2). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). Paul tells the Thessalonians: “For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. For we were not disorderly among you. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nothing: but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us.” (2 Thes. 3:7-9). The book of Hebrews tells us: “Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith imitate” (Hebrews 13:7).
Unfortunately within that wall of text my questions still weren’t answered. Perhaps you can point out exactly where my questions were answered if I happened to miss it. You also still have the problem of 1 Timothy 2:5 which says, [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Is it traditional for you to ignore this verse? If so, then there is no reason to continue the discussion, Luke 4:4 KJV [4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Then maybe you should read the highlighted. The problem in regards to the mentioned verse is observed in the text. If you will not read the argument then maybe your pursuit of understanding scripture in your own terms is fraudulent like the pharisees and you are enemy you accuse others of being. If you read the bible, as you claim, then this is "short".
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 11, 2018 17:23:42 GMT
Unfortunately within that wall of text my questions still weren’t answered. Perhaps you can point out exactly where my questions were answered if I happened to miss it. You also still have the problem of 1 Timothy 2:5 which says, [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Is it traditional for you to ignore this verse? If so, then there is no reason to continue the discussion, Luke 4:4 KJV [4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Then maybe you should read the highlighted. The problem in regards to the mentioned verse is observed in the text. If you will not read the argument then maybe you pursuit of understanding scripture in your own terms is fraudulent like the pharisees and you are enemy you accuse other's of. If you read the bible, as you claim, then this is "short". On tapatalk, it does not tell me or show me what is highlighted. “then maybe you pursuit of understanding scripture in your own terms is fraudulent like the pharisees” I would say that about the Catholic Church as in their catechism it says the church has the only authority to interpret scripture(which is exactly what the Pharisees did); CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." The magistrate is the bishops or the pope of the Catholic Church. I could then ask where the pope is mentioned in scripture and what scripture gives the bishops the only authority to interpret scripture. But let us stay on topic for the moment. I have read over the highlighted areas, again, and I still cannot find where my questions were answered. I’m looking for the scripture that verifies the saints in heaven do pray for saints on earth and that the saints in heaven do hear our prayers. I’ve already provided scripture that says there is “one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” in 1 Timothy 2:5. Does this scripture mean anything to you?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 17:27:00 GMT
Then maybe you should read the highlighted. The problem in regards to the mentioned verse is observed in the text. If you will not read the argument then maybe you pursuit of understanding scripture in your own terms is fraudulent like the pharisees and you are enemy you accuse other's of. If you read the bible, as you claim, then this is "short". On tapatalk, it does not tell me or show me what is highlighted. “then maybe you pursuit of understanding scripture in your own terms is fraudulent like the pharisees” I would say that about the Catholic Church as in their catechism it says the church has the only authority to interpret scripture(which is exactly what the Pharisees did); CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." The magistrate is the bishops or he pope of the Catholic Church. I could then ask where the pope is mentioned in scripture and what scripture gives the bishops the only authority to interpret scripture. But let us stay on topic for the moment. I have read over the highlighted areas, again, and I still cannot find where my questions were answered. I’m looking for the scripture that verifies the saints in heaven do pray for saints on earth and that the saints in heaven do hear our prayers. I’ve already provided scripture that says there is “one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” in 1 Timothy 2:5. Does this scripture mean anything to you? All verses cannot be interpreted in and of themselves without being interpreted in context to other verses. To do so would fractate the word of God into a series of parts rather than a unified message.
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. James 5:16 ESV / 36 helpful votes
"All saints on the golden alter before the throne" observes these saints as in heaven.
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